Brethren, its common knowledge that the trait/characteristic of “all knowing” is associated with God. What I want to know is, what is the true span/scope of this trait based on the scriptures (particularly Quran). Does this mean that he indeed is all knowing, knows absolutely and completely everything that ever was, is and will be i.e. past, present and future, knows exactly what is visible and invisible, to the point that he knows exactly what we are thinking, what our intent is…and so on.
Or is it a somewhat blurred concept? Meaning there is some wiggle room, some margin of something that he doesn’t know, something that he finds out once it happens and not before that, and something could actually surprise him and he could be taken aback by something we might say or do.
Based on what I have been taught and what I know, it is the first one i.e. absolute knowledge and zero surprises. I am interested in knowing what my more learned and knowledgeable friends here think about this.
Brethren, its common knowledge that the trait/characteristic of "all knowing" is associated with God. What I want to know is, what is the true span/scope of this trait based on the scriptures (particularly Quran). Does this mean that he indeed is all knowing, knows absolutely and completely everything that ever was, is and will be i.e. past, present and future, knows exactly what is visible and invisible, to the point that he knows exactly what we are thinking, what our intent is....and so on.
Or is it a somewhat blurred concept? Meaning there is some wiggle room, some margin of something that he doesn't know, something that he finds out once it happens and not before that, and something could actually surprise him and he could be taken aback by something we might say or do.
Based on what I have been taught and what I know, it is the first one i.e. absolute knowledge and zero surprises. I am interested in knowing what my more learned and knowledgeable friends here think about this.
Complete Knowledge is with Allah (SWT) ... There is not a single thing that escapes His Knowledge.
Gora Kala - I don't see the relevance. We're not talking humans, we're talking God.
Thank you for the responses, TLK and psyah. Lets see if more people agree with this. Generally I would assume everybody would and should agree, since this is pretty much the basics of the religion, and the definition of God himself.
Gora Kala - I don't see the relevance. We're not talking humans, we're talking God.
Thank you for the responses, TLK and psyah. Lets see if more people agree with this. Generally I would assume everybody would and should agree, since this is pretty much the basics of the religion, and the definition of God himself.
I am sorry if you missed the relevance, let me put it in a way that looks more like an answer rather than a question to ponder about the relevance.
Allah created this world and all the living organisms ( non-living included) with all the possibilities. each possibility will lead to other possibility/es and so on...
Consider each possibility as a door ( a milestone), we are unaware of what is beyond that door but Allah knows.
We are limited by the number of possibilities created for us but free to opt for anyone of them, that is how Allah knows not only our actions but the consequences of the action that we might take.
Gora Kala - I don't see the relevance. We're not talking humans, we're talking God.
Thank you for the responses, TLK and psyah. Lets see if more people agree with this. Generally I would assume everybody would and should agree, since this is pretty much the basics of the religion, and the definition of God himself.
You are welcome ... You can continue anytime you like though ... You don't have to wait but if you wish you can ...
I am sorry if you missed the relevance, let me put it in a way that looks more like an answer rather than a question to ponder about the relevance.
Allah created this world and all the living organisms ( non-living included) with all the possibilities. each possibility will lead to other possibility/es and so on...
Consider each possibility as a door ( a milestone), we are unaware of what is beyond that door but Allah knows.
We are limited by the number of possibilities created for us but free to opt for anyone of them, that is how Allah knows not only our actions but the consequences of the action that we might take.
I am sorry if you missed the relevance, let me put it in a way that looks more like an answer rather than a question to ponder about the relevance.
Allah created this world and all the living organisms ( non-living included) with all the possibilities. each possibility will lead to other possibility/es and so on...
Consider each possibility as a door ( a milestone), we are unaware of what is beyond that door but Allah knows.
We are limited by the number of possibilities created for us but free to opt for anyone of them, that is how Allah knows not only our actions but the consequences of the action that we might take.
Do you find any relevance now?
Thank you for explaining your point.
Although I don't wish to divert from my original train of thought at this point, but alright now that you have mentioned this (and it does relate to the trait of all knowing or omniscience)...
Say Allah has created "n" number of possibilities for us, he knows the outcome of all possible actions but has given us the freedom to choose between them. Lets call them choices, and lets take 2 choices a given point, A and B. You can either do A or B. But before you do that, Allah being omniscient, already knows you will do A and not B. That means you cannot do B and surprise him. Wouldn't that mean that the possibility/action B doesnt exist for you? You have the illusion of choice, that you can do either A or B. But since Allah already knows what you will do, that means that is exactly what you will do. Allah knew it even before he created you.
Does this mean we have no freewill? And choice of actions/possibilities is merely an illusion?
Although I don't wish to divert from my original train of thought at this point, but alright now that you have mentioned this (and it does relate to the trait of all knowing or omniscience)...
Say Allah has created "n" number of possibilities for us, he knows the outcome of all possible actions but has given us the freedom to choose between them. Lets call them choices, and lets take 2 choices a given point, A and B. You can either do A or B. But before you do that, Allah being omniscient, already knows you will do A and not B. That means you cannot do B and surprise him. Wouldn't that mean that the possibility/action B doesnt exist for you? You have the illusion of choice, that you can do either A or B. But since Allah already knows what you will do, that means that is exactly what you will do. Allah knew it even before he created you.
Does this mean we have no freewill? And choice of actions/possibilities is merely an illusion?
Peace sceptic
Okay thanks for the question ...
Now it is a lot clearer ... This question has in fact been asked by the very first philosophers who interacted with the Muslims in the early days at the formulation of the creed, it was necessary to have these developed so Muslims were not confused.
There are two aspects to the answer of this question ...
1) Does foreknowledge actually mandate no free will?
2) Time-bound contingency vs Infinite Reality beyond time
1) My counter argument is can we prove foreknowledge to be an interfering factor to the course of events? Although our minds "jump" to that conclusion it is actually not necessary that prior knowledge to something mandates that it had to be influenced by the one who knew.
For example ... I see the exam paper and the answers before the test ... I then go an sit the exam having prior knowledge of it, can it be said that by knowing the exam questions that I in anyway interfered with questions being written down? If I see a car moving in a direction and I know it will eventually cross my path so I should walk quickly does that prior estimation mean that I have controlled the path the car is taking? My estimation may be slightly flawed, by Divine Estimation is perfect and where imperfect cannot be said to influence outcome neither can it therefore be said that perfect estimation influences the outcome.
2) Actually to be phrasing the question that way ... We are misunderstanding the axiom that Allah (SWT) is not contingent ... For Him past, present and future are all the same as He is not bound by time. In order for us to understand this ... Let's say we read the news about an incident that happened yesterday ... To us we know exactly what happened ... Now since yesterday to God is the same as today then the way the news of yesterday is known the news of today is known and likewise the news of tomorrow is known, because all three past, present and future would be like reading a newspaper of a past event ... In neither case can we say the reader influenced the news because the only part we can understand in our contingent mind sets is us reading the news of yesterday. The rest is beyond imagination, but not beyond analogy as has been demonstrated.
Lets not confuse our limited knowledge and lack of power to influence the events (as Allah says, human has absolutely no power to influence anything but with Allah's will), with Allah's absolute power and absolute knowledge. If I have seen the questions and the answers before a test, how does it quality for a test? It is not a matter of Allah knowing the questions and the answers, and then setting up an exam for us to see how we answer the posed questions. In fact, he knows exactly what answers we will write, even before setting up the exam and before presenting it to us. Would this not mean that we are somewhat 'programmed' to do what he already knows we will do?
Lets take this one step further and talk about our life on earth, in the context of this life being a test. Before Allah created you, he already knew exactly without a shadow of a doubt what actions you will do, what path you will take and what will be the ultimate outcome of it (e.g. heaven or hell). Now, there cannot be a single action that you take that would surprise him, or conflict with the pre-determined path you are bound to take. Then how does this life qualify for a test, if whatever we will do is already known and pre-destined. Are we not just following the path that has been laid out for us?
Let me give you another example, lets assume Allah doesn't possess absolute knowledge. He doesn't know what action you will take in a given scenario. Lets take our possibilities A and B. A being good and B being evil. In this case, given that he doesn't know what you will do, if you do A, that will be a pleasant surprise for him and he will give you credit for it. And if you take B, he would be unhappy and would decide to punish you for it. Now bring in the trait of omniscience, and the options or "choice" doesn't exist anymore. As I said earlier, he already knows you will do A, do that should mean that the course B doesn't actually exist for you. So you are bound to do what he already knows you will do, and what he knew even before he created you.
We can expand this further by throwing in the questions like if he knows already (before creating someone) that he will take a certain course of action in his life and will end up in hell, why does he create that person? Is there any possibility that the person can change that course and hence his destiny (in which case, that should be a surprise for Allah, since he already knew that the person will not follow that course). We can bring in other aspects as well, but lets not unnecessarily complicate it at this point, and save it for later.
As for your newspaper example, I would beg to differ on the grounds that Allah is not merely the reader (i.e. observer, if you will), but the creator of everything. So whatever is known to him, is in fact created by him. So if he created a person to be sent to hell, for instance, the person is damned to begin with. Unless he (the created) has the power to do something that the creator doesn't know he will, the man has absolutely no chance.
The point is that there is limited freewill that we are graced with and one day will be questioned for. As in the answer of Ameerul Momineen Imam Ali if there were no choices then there will be no point in God's commands, judgement, punishment, or reward. In fact if there was no freewill then in words of Imam, sinner will be superior to good doer as the later will be seen as someone unnecessarily restricted by God by default/design. God is aware of everything that is going to happen in the Universe, including our actions. He is aware of the chain of causality for all things. But the point to note is that one part of the chain of causality which brings about our actions is our own freewill. God's knowledge of our actions doesn't mean that He has forced us to do them or given us no choice. There are many verses in the Scriptures on this.
Pagluu - We have to understand and bear in mind that Allah is not an unrelated spectator who is waiting to see what action you take and what chain of causality that will invoke. He is the one who created that action/event out of absolute nothingness. He created the person who will invoke that particualr chain of causality. And when he created that person and the action, he knew that at this point in his life this person will execute this designed action. Which means he planned for it to happen (the divine plan) i.e. The person will at this particular day at this particular time execute action C, say out of 3 possible actions/decisions at that particular time A, B and C. This implies that the choice between actions A, B and C is merely an illusion. Given that Allah already knows what you will do and what will be the outcome of it, you don't really have freewill not to take that action then. Designing an event and for it to happen at a pre-determined point in time, knowing that it will absolutely happen, and then claiming that he is not influencing that action is mutually exclusive and conflicting within itself.
Yes, let’s not confuse our limited knowledge and limited power. You missed my analogy dear sceptic and went off tangentially.
My purpose in getting you to look at the scenario of looking at the exam test and answers and then sitting the test was to show you how foreknowledge is not equivalent to influence or control. You reproduced the scenario wrongly in your response.
I didn’t say God set us the exam paper - you are saying that.
I said, I see the test paper, see the answers then I - “ME” I sit the exam … by getting the answers right - it does not mean that I in any way influenced the questions or the answers.
I only gave this scenario to prove that prior knowledge does NOT equal influence or control.
When we bring God in to the equation - we should avoid using the word “before” as it is time based. Everything is past tense to God. God Saw that we passed the exam … so for us that translates to - God has Seen that we passed our exams, Sees that we are passing our exams and will See that we will pass our exams. When God Saw that we passed our exams that is all past tense and no one reading the news is blamed for having influenced the news. It only breaks down when you try to bring God in to our contingent frame of reference.
God is the Master of All-Possibility - so when a juncture arrives in our destiny for us it appears like a multitude of choices and avenues to take, but from the Divine perspective it is just a single choice. Since several avenues or choices present themselves to us we experience Free Will in those multitude of choices … From the Divine perspective many is like one - since one and many have no significance before Infinity. You really need to learn to separate limitations being applied to God.
We are not following “the path that has been laid out for us” … that path is singluar to God not to us i.e. He Sees us following the path laid out for us, but we see choice and we see morality and we see right and wrong and we see good and bad… to us we have paths to choose from … for God we follow our path.
You are falling in to the same problem as Zeno with his paradox.
In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 metres, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise’s starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.[SUP][9]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno’s_paradoxes#cite_note-9)[/SUP][SUP][10]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno’s_paradoxes#cite_note-10)
[/SUP]Zeno’s paradoxes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The proof to show that the conclusion is wrong is empirical evidence. We readily walk past tortoises. But to truly refute the argument we should show how the argument is wrong.
The problem in this argument is that Zeno has configured the argument to give us the point of convergence of when Achilles meets the tortoise through an iteration equation. He has not constructed a fair test that describes the motion of each. The conclusion he gives therefore in other words does not stem properly from his argument - it is a fallacy. His conclusion is stating that Achilles can never overtake the tortoise, but the time intervals are converging to zero which means after probably five iterations each time step will be more or less **zero **and if we keep adding zero time it is obvious that nothing is going to change. Your argument is similar.
For God the “asbab” are meaningless - asbab essentially translates to “Cause and Effect” … We humans experience Good Choice - Reward and Bad Choice - Punishment. This is not applicable to God. In other words the path A itself is the reward in and of itself and path B itself is the punishment in and of itself - Essentially we either choose to put our hands in the fire or our hands in gems … It has nothing to do with God being surprised - but for sure we surprise ourselves. If you put your hands in fire and expect to be putting your hand in gems - now that will be a surprise. So again His Knowledge in a matter does not equate to His influence in it. No matter how much you try to convince yourself of that … This is an axiom which stems from the a priori - you have to work with the rules … you can’t rationalise them or else they won’t be a priori - (starting points) then something else is being set as the starting point.
Another way to gather an analogy on this is to say that our free will exists on the x axis and God’s Knowledge exists on the y axis … Neither will a change in the x affect the y nor a change in the y affect the x. It is not to say that God cannot influence change, but that is when it gets quite complicated but still very feasible to derive conceptual models to help us understand matters without in any way saying such analogies are in themselves true. That would be wrong.
Ok so here is where it gets complicated … but still very feasible.
First of all you cannot beg to differ from my newspaper analogy because in that analogy I was trying to point a specific point. It is not right to throw in other parameters especially in to thought models that are used to explain specific points.
The Creative force of Allah (SWT) is such that He is Constantly Sustaining us, we are totally contingent on Him. The moment He lifts that Sustenance we would cease. Not just us, but the paths we follow are contingent and real, the paths we could have followed are contingent and real, the purpose He created us for has been documented in our scriptures.
To say otherwise is contradicting the a priori that we have in place which is our scripture. In scripture God does not create humanity to be “sent to hell” … All humanity and all creatures were created to worship Him and we humans have to know Him - no one believes that specific people were created to go to hell. So the question is wrong.
So what is being said here is this:
Our purpose is to Know and worship God and we obtain that by choosing the path where we can obtain the Mercy of God to get to heaven. Whether any of us achieve that purpose or not is a different matter. In other words God has not tied our purpose to our destiny. To say that God Knows who will go to hell and assert that was the purpose for him is to speak on behalf of God what we do not know about Him, rather it is to lie about God, because God - Allah (SWT) has already told us that we are not created to be damned.
Can the person change the course set out for him? The person always has a choice to do good … the empirical world shows that to us everyday … Also, du’ah can alter our path from the human perspective, but that path to God is not altered or the alteration was always Known to Him.
Let’s say a person changes his mind several times and each time his own specific destiny changed a result of it, each time we say God Knew that …
Man chooses path
God alters destiny
God Knew that
Man chooses another path
God alters destiny
God Knew that
ad infinitum
We have to learn to stop putting ourselves in the position of the Holy Rabb (SWT) … Rather than play games with our own intellects see what choices are present before us and be sincere and honest and merely accept Allah (SWT) in the way He reveals Himself to us …
