notice the manufacturers of the duplicate and fake products...... they make evry possible effort in packaging it like the original.......but at the end of the day original remains the original.........despite all the BS glorification that the enemies rcvd...the names of the divine and real will remain and endure whatever the enemies may throw at it.......Ali will remain Ali....
original product have to proove himself original, no need to make fake and fabricated beliefs.
why hz. ali ra did not annouced that he ra was imam, if you thing imamate is pillar of islam.
why quran slient on this issue.
why prophet phuh slient on such issue, where as at last sermon he pbuh said that i have deleivered what i got from allah.
thats the whole point if ahle sunnah was tilted so heavily in favor of ummayyads the sahih hadith will be full of praise for marwan & muawiyah ...but they are not
true , not saying that there are no fabricated hadith ...but ur criteria for judging them is selective
also bear in mind many shia hadith not in line with later imamiyah and ithna ashari creed were also labelled fabricated ( thats why i recommend u read takim's works)
okay even if we do believe ur theory ( which i only partially do ) that will only be true if there are extremely partisan hadith from these people ( i.e those that go against shia creed)
Yet some of the bread and butter ( nonpolitical and mundane stuff) comes from many of these narraters.Here there cud be no ulterior motive to trace a hadith back to some supporter of Ali.
There is a difference between 'they didn't' and 'they couldn't'. You believe the first and i believe the later.
I have read Takim Sahabs work and have also attended his lecture and found it quite good. If you insist on discussing his work then point me to exact piece and then we can go from there.
Brother, hadiths about mundane and basic religious matters are contradictory too like on Namaz, Muta, Nikkah, Hajj, khums, zakat etc and at times sources from a same person. Therefore there is a defenative case of fabrication. Full lies are easy to detect but half-lies are harder as they contain a mix of truth and falsehood and therefore, confusing. When smart people lie, they make sure that they lie smartly. A practical example could be found just by observing a politician speak or looking at any of the White house press conferences.
dont bring other issues into this discussion as events of first civil war and their subsequent interpretation has been done by many scholars of many other schools of thought.There is nothing "new" for 12ers to add here , most criticism by zaydis ,mutazilla and even sunni scholars of enemies of Ali is in mainstream books.
Infact just as fighting apostates came part of sunnah from abu bakr's example similarly fighting muslim rebels ( and laws pertaining to that) became part of sunnah from ali's example
And if rehablitation of some of defeated enemies of ali bothers u then those tribal leaders who fought abu bakr , were defeated and forgiven by them are also similarly rehablitated in sunni history.
but where do u find these attributes from ? or who gave u this historical ali ?
historians and hadith collectors ...so without them Quran alone is not enuf for determing leadership
sorry to say but thats a lot rhetoric .... most sunnis also claim to love ahlulbayt just as shias do ( not talkin about nawasib like bilal phillips, taqi usmani etc)
but they see 12ers adoration of ahlulbayt akin to christians veneration of jesus christ
-You mentioned the Sunni hadith of the Prophet predicting 30 years of the righteous caliphate so the reason I just pointed to the rebellion Ayesha led. I don't know the other stuff you are talking about frankly.
-We got the Ali from the two sources of guidance Prophet left behind, i.e. Quran and the Ahlul Bayt (as).
Again I repeat, Quran is very clear about everything. Its the people that have maligned it due to love of self and this world and in thus the confusions and misinterpretions.
[24:34] And certainly We have sent to you clear communications and a description of those who have passed away before you, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).
-Well, tell an Athiest that the God is Beneficient and the Merciful and he will discard it as a 'rhetoric' too. Love of the Ahlul Bayt (as) is termed 'wage of risalat' by Allah (swt) in the Quran. You can call it rhetoric if you wish. By the way, you can state your beliefs and I could just do the same without proving much.
^you like using these terms like sensationalism, exaggaration, rheortic, etc etc. Very rarely i have seen you put forward your own belief but when and if you do then i will try to do better than just calling it popular terms that dont mean much.
About Takim Sahab. I have read that article and found it quite informative. I did not agree with the title of the article though, for our Ulema have not promoted Aliyan Wali Allah as a Sunnat and they have not declared it as a part of the azan or iqama (despite a couple of traditions proving in favour, including one from a Sunni source).
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^you like using these terms like sensationalism, exaggaration, rheortic, etc etc.
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every time i try to engage 12ers in any meaningful conversation its always comes down to "love of ahlulbayt" thats a convenient fall back ...as if anyone who does not agree with their view of ahlulbayt is not a lover of ahlulbayt
and enemy at worse ....
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Very rarely i have seen you put forward your own belief but when and if you do then i will try to do better than just calling it popular terms that dont mean much
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i have stated my beliefs explicity many times before and considering u have been active in these discussions so for long i thought u were familiar with them.
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About Takim Sahab. I have read that article and found it quite informative. I did not agree with the title of the article though, for our Ulema have not promoted Aliyan Wali Allah as a Sunnat and they have not declared it as a part of the azan or iqama (despite a couple of traditions proving in favour, including one from a Sunni source).
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so i guess we can safely say its not sunnah and a bidah ? maybe a good one according to u ...but an innovation nevertheless
every time i try to engage 12ers in any meaningful conversation its always comes down to "love of ahlulbayt" thats a convenient fall back ...as if anyone who does not agree with their view of ahlulbayt is not a lover of ahlulbayt
and enemy at worse ....
i have stated my beliefs explicity many times before and considering u have been active in these discussions so for long i thought u were familiar with them.
so i guess we can safely say its not sunnah and a bidah ? maybe a good one according to u ...but an innovation nevertheless
-You are wrong if you are trying to point towards me. I have not at any stage called you an enemy of the Ahlul Bayt or whatever else you are trying to mean there. So i don't know what you are complaining about. It is you guys actually who make every effort to belittle the Prophet and his Ahluly Bayt and try to colour the Sahabas & the Kings in some sort of holy-paint whereas these were themselves people in a dire need of guidance.
[10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
And by the way, it all does come down to the love of the Ahlul Bayt for the Prophet said that "To love them is to love me and to hurt them is to hurt me. And whoever hurts me angers Allah".
-I can remember you stating: *Umar was disobidient to the Prophet and doubted his Prophethood but did it with good intentions in his heart. *Allah and his Prophet did not leave a clear system of guidance.
I really stopped myself responding to these kind of statements. Apart from these i remember some good stuff from you along with continous anti-shia stuff (the reasons for which Allah knows, may be a Shia cheated you or something) .
-Well, if we were followers of Umar son of Khattab then may be we would have made it a Biddah Hasna and make it part of the azan like Umar added and subtracted a few lines here and a few lines there from the azan (not to mention other changes he made at will, to the most important of the components of the Sharia). But Alhumdolillah, we are followers of Ali Ibn Abi Talib and I thank Allah (swt) for that blessing every moment of my life.
]--I can remember you stating: *Umar was disobidient to the Prophet and doubted his Prophethood but did it with good intentions in his heart. *Allah and his Prophet did not leave a clear system of guidance.
I really stopped myself responding to these kind of statements
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I did ..umer was always outspoken , quick tempered and the apparent "surrender" at hudabiya dismayed him a lot.Umar has been one of those who openly practicsed islam even in makkah and was amongst the staunchest critic of quraish leaders even after they accepted islam.
I really dont understand ur hatred of umer , for me after ali... umer is the best caliph in every way
i will give another analogy when hasan b ali signed treaty with muawiyah hujr b adi one of his most loyalist supporters called hasan "one who humliates the faithful" and "you have blackened the faces of believers"
does this mean that hujr was a hypocrite ...no but like umar was quick tempered
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Apart from these i remember some good stuff from you along with continous anti-shia stuff (the reasons for which Allah knows, may be a Shia cheated you or something) .
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plz dont assume this i am not so immature to hate a group of people cuz of actions of an individual but its my firm belief that 12er shias do not represent orthodox islam
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You are wrong if you are trying to point towards me. I have not at any stage called you an enemy of the Ahlul Bayt or whatever else you are trying to mean there. So i don't know what you are complaining about
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maybe u havent but u will agree that a lot of your 12er buddies have
.
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It is you guys actually who make every effort to belittle the Prophet and his Ahluly Bayt and try to colour the Sahabas & the Kings in some sort of holy-paint whereas these were themselves people in a dire need of guidance.
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i think u need to exclude me from this ....but i will always defend the conduct of vast majority of sahaba as their defamation is done by 12ers , but never ever will u find me defending the likes of muawiyah & marwan.
I really dont understand ur hatred of umer , for me after ali... umer is the best caliph in every way
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Once you say that then there is no debate left.
I dont know about 12ers in general, since I think that religion is between God and Man and the perception of God and all that is holy is unique to each individual, but ask any wise man and he will tell you that over zealousness and volatility are a dangerous combination.
The disagreement where certain 12ers go overboard is on the separation of church and state. In Prophet (SAW) we had a unity of command of religion and political leadership. Off the 4 caliphs that followed, only Ali could pass religious edicts without looking up to someone else.
Abu Bakr and Umer were big enough men to ask for that help most of the time. 12ers argue that the unity of command should have stayed and a single leader appointed by God could only maintain that unity. Ahl-e-sunnat disagree and believe that no such provision exist in Islam, though it was a norm that deputies to prophets (AS) were nominated by God as stated in Quran. There are many arguments and counterarguments but this is the fundamental difference. Rest are all fiqh issues and there are a lot of similarities and disagreements but nothing more pronounced then what exists within the various sects of Ahle-sunnat.
maybe u havent but u will agree that a lot of your 12er buddies have
.
i think u need to exclude me from this ....but i will always defend the conduct of vast majority of sahaba as their defamation is done by 12ers , but never ever will u find me defending the likes of muawiyah & marwan.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The scholars are agreed, on the basis of reports and chains of narrators, that the Raafidah (the Shi’ah) are the most mendacious of groups and that the lies among them are ancient. Hence the imams defined them as being distinguished by the fact that they are liars.
Imam Maalik was asked about the Raafidah and he said: Do not talk to them and do not narrate from them, because they tell lies.
Imam al-Shaafa’i said: I have never seen anyone who bears false witness more than the Raafidis.
Yazeed ibn Haroon said: You can narrate from any man of innovation (bid’ah), provided that he is not active in calling others to his innovation, except al-Raafidah, because they are liars.
Shareek al-Qaadi said: Acquire knowledge from everyone you meet except the Raafidah, for they fabricate hadeeth and take that as their religion.
This Shareek is Shareek ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Qaadi, the qaadi of Kufah, one of the peers of al-Thawri and Abu Haneefah. He is one of the Shi’ah who said with his own tongue: I am one of the Shi’ah, and this was his testimony concerning them.
These reports are proven; they were narrated by Abu ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Battah in al-Ibaanah al-Kubra by him and others. End quote from Minhaaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (1/26-
^^ dude this is so awesome, this has to be believed and taken at the face value because some guy said it who was considered a kafir/heretic by ulema of his time.
These are mere opinions of partisans and hence worthless in any debate.
Quran says in Sura Hasr verse 07 that "And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allverily, Allis Severe in punishment."
Then in the begining of Sura Najm it is said that "Your Companion (The Holy Prophet) does not err, nor does he go astray. Nor does he speak out of desire. It is not but revelation that is revealed.
Every word of the Messenger is the revelation from the God as the Quran is saying. We find it impossible to believe that God did not prescribe a system to ensure the conservance of these very words that he is ordering us to follow which we refer to as hadees. I have read you say that the book is not enough without the hadees. Infact something as basic as namaz is not defined in the Quran. So in this case we can see that even the book of God is dependend on the Hadees. If its that important then why were the Muslims left to wonder around for 2 centuries after the Prophet before starting to realise and putting together the words of the messenger. What were the people following before the hadees was written?
Hujr b Adi was a Sahabi of the Prophet and then follower of Imam Ali and Imam Hasan (as). What you have stated is a fabrication from the camp the killer of this noble companion. He lived by the Prophet and Imam Ali and died fighting on the side of Imam Hasan against Muawiya.
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ofcourse you will not accept something like this ....as it goes agianst ur concept of infallible imam
hujr b adi radiallahanhu indeed was a sahabi called "monk of the companions" , and look in all his biographies these incidents of his disupte with hasan b ali are present if u want to shut ur eyes thats ur choice ....
and he was not "killed fighting" but was a victim of extra-judicial killing by muawiyah while he was peaceful. Ahle sunnah scholars have great respect for him ...so much so that his praying 2 rakas before execution have become sunnah according to imam ibn sirin
re: incident u quoted , i assume its true but not antagonizing the quraishi chiefs after fatah is one thing but promoting and patronizing them is another
umars shura did not contain a single taliq or former quraishi chief, and his sabiqa policy effectively put them all at a lower level than muhajireen & ansar and other sahaba.
at fatah makkah umar even asked the propeht to kill most of the older enemies from quraish , but prophet declined
The disagreement where certain 12ers go overboard is on the separation of church and state. In Prophet (SAW) we had a unity of command of religion and political leadership. Off the 4 caliphs that followed, only Ali could pass religious edicts without looking up to someone else.
Abu Bakr and Umer were big enough men to ask for that help most of the time. 12ers argue that the unity of command should have stayed and a single leader appointed by God could only maintain that unity. Ahl-e-sunnat disagree and believe that no such provision exist in Islam, though it was a norm that deputies to prophets (AS) were nominated by God as stated in Quran. There are many arguments and counterarguments but this is the fundamental difference. Rest are all fiqh issues and there are a lot of similarities and disagreements but nothing more pronounced then what exists within the various sects of Ahle-sunnat.
i think u have come very close to diffrentiating between the 2 ideologies however with one excption..
ahle sunnah regard the first 30yrs as rashidun caliphate meaning that it was guided by people who were most knowledgable in religious knowledge of their time.The decisions taken during this time by ijma of religious community they look upto as religiously and legally binding.
Unfortunately with the start of kingship the leadership of community from religious people was lost , the decisions taken by these kings are never regarded by ahle sunnah scholars as legally binding ...infact many ahle sunnah imams were persecuted by their opposition to the decisions of kings.But since these scholars also represented the mainstream religion of their time they had to temper their criticism so as not to elicit a very heavy handed response from kings/tyrants.
12er and other ideologies did not have their obligation, they cud concentrate more on the "perfect scenario" and theoratical aspect of their ideologies.But when 12er religion was put into practice in iran and awadh they ran into the same problem the churuch and state had to be seperated as they cud not ever get a king who was religious enuf to be both.Infact before 1977 -79 12er clerics discourgaed participation in political matters ( until imam khomenini came along with his concept of velayat e faqi)