'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

Exactly, I fully agree with you. This issue will stay unless we have a God appointed leader that can bring it back into a single person, the "Mehdi". Mehdi will be the Imam/Caliph/Leader that will solve this issue by being the political and religious leader, and if you are mainstream muslim sunni or shia, you probably won't disagree with me.

Ever wondered why can't we just chose him out of Ijm'a?

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

[QUOTE]
Mehdi will be the Imam/Caliph/Leader that will solve this issue by being the political and religious leader, and if you are mainstream muslim sunni or shia, you probably won't disagree with me.

[/QUOTE]

no i dont disagree ...

[QUOTE]
Ever wondered why can't we just chose him out of Ijm'a?

[/QUOTE]

nowhere does it say in mainstream hadith that this is the ONLy way of choosing a leader
remember mehdi will come in times of extreme crisis and will deal with a very difficult /powerful enemy ( dajjal)
furthermore his forces will be helped by re-appearence of prophet jesus ....it seems a stretch to apply this to all eras and times.

103

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

but i think u missed one of my point
the rashidun caliphate is seen by sunnis "as close as it gets" to divinely guided leadership.
Here the emphasis is not on the persona of the leader himself but consensus of all major companions ( in which ali plays a big role) ...
They do not consider it seperation of church and state , for sunnis that starts with ummayyads the "malookiat"

i am glad we agreed and agreed to disagree on some things ...

104

See we can all be civilized about it.

I didnt miss your point.

I was just thinking that you are ok with a divinely selected leader called Mehdi who is not a Prophet, so what shall we call him....hmmm what is arabic for leader.....Imam.....but then you don't believe in divinely selected Imams......

Hmmm....

105

So you agree that Imamat is irrelevant till appearance of Mahdi.

106

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

^ Lovie,,,,I think you kinda jumped the gun before i concluded my argument

but at the same time...you have also agreed to the concept of divinely selected Imam....

Cheers

107

firstly if we have one divinely selected leader at end of times why shud he be preceeded by 11 ( and mind you only 11) others ?
why shud there be a break of 1400 yrs and who know how long until imam in gahybah appears ?
word imam though commonly associatted with 12ers is by no means unique to them

u can take and play with this logic as much as u want .....but we only have hadith and history to consult and in light of this we can come up with the best conclusion and God knows best

Full Time Masti - May 2013
108

not quite. Mujtahids are our naib e Imam, and the Imam (as) himself is present as our guide in this world.

Full Time Masti - May 2013
109

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

@Das - You are sidestepping the argument. All I am saying now both you and Icon are ok with the concept of a divinely guided leader/Imam for Muslims.

I thought you just didn't believe in the concept of Imamat and please don't bring 12ers in this discussion. You can disagree with them, all you want on the need of 11 others.

The bottom line is that you do subscribe to the concept.

You blame 12ers for revisionist history, but I learned history from sunni books. In the other thread on sahabas you are yourself talking about creating new paradigms in Islam.

Jews live on the sympathy of Holocaust and there is a whole movement out there which is trying to revise the history as it has been recorded and show the true light of how Jews were not the ultimate victims of Holocaust, there were gypsies and other nationalities too. The number of 6 million is highly exaggerated, there were no gas chambers (which they prove wiht scientific evidence) and how Jews killed millions of germans post world war 2 and its been documented very effectively in the book eye for an eye which is very difficult to get hold of and jews have created books by same name to obscure it.

So my dear friend, if history is written by victors and is always distorted then there is no problem in revisiting and correcting it. If you accuse shias of revisionism then there are very solid arguments for that (not that I am accepting your argument of revisionism) and many of them you have listed yourself.

Bottom line once again - as much as you and our friends in Ahle-Sunnat deny it, there comes a time where all of you (mainstream) accept the need for divinely appointed Imam.

I will pray that rather than feeling like that you have lost an argument, you look it as an opener to your heart and mind and accept the divine system of guidance. Insha' Allah

110

[quote]

Das - You are sidestepping the argument. All I am saying now both you and Icon are ok with the concept of a divinely guided leader/Imam for Muslims.

I thought you just didn't believe in the concept of Imamat and please don't bring 12ers in this discussion. You can disagree with them, all you want on the need of 11 others.

[/quote]

if there was histoical evidence and hadith to prove that Prophet left a divinely appointed imam as leader then I wud be the first to believe

but bottomline is

In mainstrean history and hadith THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT PROPHET LEFT A DIVINELY APPOINTED IMAM OR INSTRUCTIONS THAT 11 OTHERS WILL FOLLOW

thats why i dont follow 12ers

[quote]

So my dear friend, if history is written by victors and is always distorted then there is no problem in revisiting and correcting it. If you accuse shias of revisionism then there are very solid arguments for that (not that I am accepting your argument of revisionism) and many of them you have listed yourself.

[/quote]

ur comparison with ww2 history is not valid such history can be revisited as its survivors jews or germans or poles are still very much alive and tons of independent archives can be consulted

12er revisionist history began at a time when hardly anyone from the sahaba was alive and was backprojected into the mouths of their imams via jafar sadiq and baqir

two COMPLETELY different issues

btw most mainstream historians in islam have been shia-friendly atleast pro-alid like ibn kalbi, abu mikhnaf, ali madaini, yaqubi, ibn atheer and masudi

[quote]
Bottom line once again - as much as you and our friends in Ahle-Sunnat deny it, there comes a time where all of you (mainstream) accept the need for divinely appointed Imam.
[/quote]

so ? that need is not now ....its just like saying since u agree with the concept of prophethood .we shud accept prophets again after rasoolallah

[quote]

I will pray that rather than feeling like that you have lost an argument, you look it as an opener to your heart and mind and accept the divine system of guidance. Insha' Alla

[/quote]

i never feel like this as i have been a deobandi , then ithna ashari and finally settled on my present belief so i am no stranger to any beliefs and i dont have any prejudice against anyone

111

Salaams sister Ma Mooli :flower2:

How do you know that any particular Mujtahid is a “naib e Imam”?

  1. Does the said Mujtahid appoint himself to this elevated position?
  2. Does the eminent Imam by his own wish anoint the Mujtahid as his Naib (deputy)?
  3. If it the above (no. 2) is correct, how does the eminent Imam convey this message (That a particular Mujtahid is from then on is the deputy (naib) of the imam? And how can this message from the Imam be verified? Letter of appointment, perhaps? For the Imam is known for communicating through letter writing, right?

If the source of guidance of all your “Mujtahids” is the eminent Imam, then there should be no two opinions on any matter between “Mujtahids” (as they have the infallible Imam to guide them, right?)

The late ayatollah Khomeini and his likes promoted the concept of Wilayat e Faqhi so the 12er Shias can form a government in the name of absent Imam whereas there equally very prominent ayatullahs opposed to this concept and take it to be an innovation in matters of religion.

How can the ayatullahs (Mujtahids) differ if they are guided by the same source (Imam)?

112

I must admit I never knew Ma Mooli is female.

113

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

^ who cares if she is a brother or a sister

its funny how 12ers like to present "shias" as one monolithic belief system but anyone who is even briefly familiar with them is aware of their evolution and divergence of various shia movements.

now with the resurgence of 12ers in the last few centuries they claim to "own" all beliefs that are characteristic to other extinct schools of thought within islam.

114

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

^anybody who believes in the Wilayat of Ali Ibn Abi Talib is defined as a Shia. And i believe you are one too, Das.

Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get married
Muslim lesbian couple from Pakistan defies life threats, becomes first to get married
115

Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

^ wilayat is a word with multiple meanings and a whole seperate discussion

and if by shia of Ali u mean his helpers/supporters who hated his enemies and loved his friends and made war with whomever he made war and made peace with whomever he made peace and yes definately i wud like to be called amongst his shia ....as authentic hadith prove that Ali was on haqq and it wAS incumbant on believers to support him.

the salaf sahaba & tabaeen were amongst his shia ...but their belief is very different from the present day 12ers beliefs.btw i dont even consider 12ers as shias as in the original sense of the word as they are so far from mainstream islam.And aga khanis are 100% kafirs , but 12ers are not kafirs

bro pagluu if u want some non-partisan book titles on evolution of shiaism as a seperate sect and after I can recommend some ?

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

Regardless, thats the part of Das Reich that i like better, i.e. the Shia part :)

Yes, for sure. PM me the links if they are online.

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i never feel like this as i have been a deobandi , then ithna ashari and finally settled on my present belief so i am no stranger to any beliefs and i dont have any prejudice against anyone
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this is not a very impressive resume. I am sure once you get bored with your current beliefs you will move on or will find the truth and become a shia again ;)

Full Time Masti - May 2013
118

righteous you are wrong, in fact the resume is very impressive.

It shows that as a person he has a searching soul and is willing to change if presented with 'more convincing facts' rather than Doggedly sticking to the faith or sect one is born into no matter what.

It takes guts to change one's inherited faith - Personally I find him to be most informed and well read than any other poster in the religious section.

Did the thought ever occur to you that you could be wrong! ;)

119

Indeed, you have opened up my eyes .....i didnt realize DAS is a believer inl

Hai justujo kai hai khub say khubter kahan
ab dekhiyeh ja kar therthee hai yeh nazar kahan

I have challenged my faith so harshly, you cannot even imagine dude and I never take anything coming from either side at face value...challenging each and everything is what saves us from mistakes.

120

Strange indeed! Going through your posts I always felt that your were not blind but the eyes were certainly closed tight. Keep tuned and certainly you will see the truth as you open eyes a bit more! ;)

Did it make any difference? Any change in your views from what the Zakirs spew out?

Or is it just like the proverbial buffalo that walks in circles around the well pumping out the water thinking within himself: “My, My, My I have travelled world far and wide and seen the world.”

Whereas we know that the buffalo was toiling around and ‘drinking from the same watering hole’.