it is loaud and clear, read last sermon of holy prophet saw clearly says what ummah will do after him saw, he saw did not nominated any one left such selection on ummah.
and about ghadeer-e-kum it was seprate event, some ppls visited prophet pbuh and complaint about hz. ali ra and prophet pnuh clearify position of hz. ali ra not announced that hz. ali ra will be lead ummah after him saw.
Umer, just watch, read and try to learn.
Forget that i am a Shia for a moment. I am a Hindu who has turned Sunni Muslim and asking you to prove to him that Allah and his messenger did not leave a clear system of guidance behind after claiming in the Quran that the deen is perfect.
then the discussion will be around what is the basis of the argument that for a perfect religion its neccesary to have infallible imam as source of guidence for all times to come...
again lets dissect this issue into 2 seperate points
whether or not Prophet appointed a successor is one issue and
His appointed successor is an infallible imam and so are 11 others from his lineage
the 2 issues are not neccesarily the same
personally for me i trust the argument which can be backed up by the most numerous and earliest historical sources ...not necceasrily the most convincing one theologically.
Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)
so you go by quantity rather than quality of narraters? interesting. do you know there was a time in history where recording false ahadith was encouraged. still, i have a simple question ....
when the Prophet (saw) passed away, Hazrat Abu Bakr was selected to be caliph, which is not a minor thing, the question is why wasnt Hazrat Ali asked to be present or involved in the matter? I mean, the selection of a leader is not a minor thing....is it?
then the discussion will be around what is the basis of the argument that for a perfect religion its neccesary to have infallible imam as source of guidence for all times to come...
again lets dissect this issue into 2 seperate points whether or not Prophet appointed a successor is one issue and His appointed successor is an infallible imam and so are 11 others from his lineage
the 2 issues are not neccesarily the same
personally for me i trust the argument which can be backed up by the most numerous and earliest historical sources ...not necceasrily the most convincing one theologically.
Again, you are not willing to let go of the Shia perpective.
Do you base your beliefs on the Quran and Sunnat as understood in the light of Quran or do you base it on the 'popular' stories?
so you go by quantity rather than quality of narraters? interesting. do you know there was a time in history where recording false ahadith was encouraged. still, i have a simple question ....
when the Prophet (saw) passed away, Hazrat Abu Bakr was selected to be caliph, which is not a minor thing, the question is why wasnt Hazrat Ali asked to be present or involved in the matter? I mean, the selection of a leader is not a minor thing....is it?
Yea like Abu Hurarira who managed to quote hadiths for the whole 1/6th (16%!) of the Sahi Muslim!!!! compare the numbers between Abu Hurarira and the Ahlul Bayt (as) and you shall get a view of what was inside Bukhari and co's heart, i.e. plenty of bughs.
Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)
^ thats a simplistic view of looking at "sunni hadith" ...
firstly i dont have a high opinion of abu huraira either , but his reliability of non-political /nonpartisan hadith is hard to question or might even be unneccesary.
if sunni hadith had such "plenty of bughs" why are the hadith about merits of ali b abitalib more numerous than that of any other companion ?
this fact is often quoted by 12ers , why arent hadith about abubakr /umar more ? afterall according to u sunni hadith is all nawasib lies anyways rite ? why shud they leave so many hadith for ali ?
secondly if sunni hadith was one anti-ali enterprise why are jabir b abdullah , abdullah b abbas and abu saeed khudri ( all important shias of ali) narraters of over 1000 hadith each in sunni books?
tell me why why hz. ali ra named there sons on the name of 3 khalifa, and also why hz. hussain ra and rest of your so called imam did that for your information 11 socalled imams have childrens name like 3 khalifa.
correction: they are not socalled imams. Get your facts straight.
^ thats a simplistic view of looking at "sunni hadith" ... firstly i dont have a high opinion of abu huraira either , but his reliability of non-political /nonpartisan hadith is hard to question or might even be unneccesary.
if sunni hadith had such "plenty of bughs" why are the hadith about merits of ali b abitalib more numerous than that of any other companion ? this fact is often quoted by 12ers , why arent hadith about abubakr /umar more ? afterall according to u sunni hadith is all nawasib lies anyways rite ? why shud they leave so many hadith for ali ?
secondly if sunni hadith was one anti-ali enterprise why are jabir b abdullah , abdullah b abbas and abu saeed khudri ( all important shias of ali) narraters of over 1000 hadith each in sunni books?
obviously one has to be smart to lie. They couldnt have concocted too many lies for Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman for what great thing did they do for Islam during the life of the Prophet anyway? History testifies to them being disobidient to the Prophet, fleeing battles, doubting his Prophethood and what not.
Many hadiths on the name of Jabir b Abdullah, Abdullah Ibn Abbas are nothing but fabrication.
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so you go by quantity rather than quality of narraters? interesting.
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who ever said that but rijal and history cannot judged at the same way as hadith is judged and even amongst that there is dispute who is or isnt a reliable narrater.
And no i dont stick dogmatically to sunni hadith masters discrediting of historians e.g Hisham ibn kalbi the master of maghazi and rijal is discredited by most sunni hadith masters in matters of HADITH ALONE yet he is quoted extensively by them in their biographical books
andhay ho kar laathi nahin chalani chahiyay
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do you know there was a time in history where recording false ahadith was encouraged. still, i have a simple question ....
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yes there was by both shias and sunnis ...but that does not mean that any hadith that you or your beliefs are not comfortable with is automatically fabricated
[quote]
when the Prophet (saw) passed away, Hazrat Abu Bakr was selected to be caliph, which is not a minor thing, the question is why wasnt Hazrat Ali asked to be present or involved in the matter? I mean, the selection of a leader is not a minor thing....is it?
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honestly first answer this did abu bakr or umar start the saqifa gathering ?
it was a gathering by ansar of medina to nominate a chief amongst the ansar ....u r right that ali & banu hashim shud have been consulted and thats why ali & his supporters were upset intially.But the discussion at saqifa revolves mainly around qualities of muhajireen and ansar , and mention of Ali by ansar was in recognition of his qualities.
If Ali was appointed divine leader in front of all then all other discussion would have been meaningless
*And according to ur beliefs ali was APPOINTED by God , so what was the point of consultaion anyway ? nor cud there be any question of selection *
So according to this logic ansar violated a explicit commandent of God , conspired against ali and later muhajireen collaborated with them to keep leadership from ali ...
and this is how 12ers discredit the vast majority of sahaba from both muhajireen and ansar
I do admit ( and umar said that too) that saqifa was a ad hoc and not the best possible way to select a leader but at that time the quality of muslims was such that even a far from perfect method cuz still result in a person like abu bakr bcoming caliph ( who according to most muslims is of impeccable credentials)
Thats why neither umar nor abubakr followed saqifa's model of succession.
obviously one has to be smart to lie. They couldnt have concocted too many lies for Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman for what great thing did they do for Islam during the life of the Prophet anyway? History testifies to them being disobidient to the Prophet, fleeing battles, doubting his Prophethood and what not.
Many hadiths on the name of Jabir b Abdullah, Abdullah Ibn Abbas are nothing but fabrication.
why there are numerous false hadith in praise of muawiyah ...what did he do to help islam.
or many other sahaba did so much to help islam yet very littl of their lives /merits are recorded or remembered.
and the criticism of the first 3 sunni caiphs is also found in sunni sources and hadith wherever appropriate that atleast to neutral observer is some proof of objectivity.Again which history ? 12er or sunni ? the same histories have also recorded the merits of these men but u choose to ignore them as it does not fit 12er aganda
re: ibn abbas and others , same argument can be used against many 12er hadith going back to jafar sadiq and baqir , as most 12ers in their isnads are rejected by sunni muhadiths as liars.
secondly even if we assume ur allegation is true , the mere fact that these hadith were attributed to them shows that these important partisans of ali were stamps of authenticity even in sunni hadith circles.
Again, you are not willing to let go of the Shia perpective.
Do you base your beliefs on the Quran and Sunnat as understood in the light of Quran or do you base it on the 'popular' stories?
hadith
whose 12er or sunni as to you sunni hadith on leadership are useless and vice versa....according to sunni hadith Prophet predicted 30yr righteous caliphate then kingship and told muslims to follow his righteous caliphs
Quran
by itself Quran does not name anyone as successor of Prophet , there might be some indirect hints of method of leadership but without backing them with hadith no person can be judged as successor.so Quran alone cannot be used
"popular stories"
what do u mean by that are u discrediting all historians as story tellers ? or only those who dont conform with your views
correction: they are not socalled imams. Get your facts straight.
yes they are so called imams where did these person announce that they are imams.
where did hz. ali ra says that i am imam.
where did hz. hassan ra says that i am imam.
where did hz. hussain ra says that i am imam.
also hz ali ra have many sons, why you did not add word "imam" for these sons.
why there are numerous false hadith in praise of muawiyah ...what did he do to help islam. or many other sahaba did so much to help islam yet very littl of their lives /merits are recorded or remembered.
and the criticism of the first 3 sunni caiphs is also found in sunni sources and hadith wherever appropriate that atleast to neutral observer is some proof of objectivity.Again which history ? 12er or sunni ? the same histories have also recorded the merits of these men but u choose to ignore them as it does not fit 12er aganda
re: ibn abbas and others , same argument can be used against many 12er hadith going back to jafar sadiq and baqir , as most 12ers in their isnads are rejected by sunni muhadiths as liars. secondly even if we assume ur allegation is true , the mere fact that these hadith were attributed to them shows that these important partisans of ali were stamps of authenticity even in sunni hadith circles.
The number of hadiths praising Muawiya are surely lesser than the ones praising Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. Atleast i have not come across many in the Saha books.
please do put forward the merits of the Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman because some of them are laughable really. For example how in order to counter the hadith of the Prophet about Imam Hasan and Hussain being prince of the youth in paradise they noted Abu Bakr and Umar to be prince of the old folks and so on.
Ofcourse there is hadiths from Imam Sadiq and Imam Baqir that are false and contradcitory, hence they are classified as fabricated. Same is the reason why a lot of stuff from Ibn Abbas and others is fabricated because it contradicts the other narrations by the same person. One person obviously cant say two different things about something for either he will be considered insane or a liar.
Why you guys have narrations in your books from partisans of Imam Ali? The answer is; to buy the narrations some credibility. For example, if i told you i heared from a kid on the street that the economic situation is tight, you will shrug/laugh it off. But if i told you that i heared it on the TV that the governer of the state bank says the same thing then you will take serious notice. Stronger the source = more the weightage.
hadith whose 12er or sunni as to you sunni hadith on leadership are useless and vice versa....according to sunni hadith Prophet predicted 30yr righteous caliphate then kingship and told muslims to follow his righteous caliphs
Quran by itself Quran does not name anyone as successor of Prophet , there might be some indirect hints of method of leadership but without backing them with hadith no person can be judged as successor.so Quran alone cannot be used
"popular stories" what do u mean by that are u discrediting all historians as story tellers ? or only those who dont conform with your views
Hadith
I will reject any hadith, be it Shia or Sunni, that contradicts the Quran regardless of who and where its coming from.
30 years of righteous caliphate = if you guys believed this hadith to be true then your opinion about Ayesha should be different because she rebelled against the righteous calipha (and clearly violated few commands of the Quran in the process).
Quran
The book of Allah does not name successor but very clearly gives qualities and attributes of a leader and a model of leadership. Quran does not name Imam Ali but there are two ways to refer to someone. You can just simply bring his name, or you can refer to his descriptions and attributes. If i asked you to know who your professor for English is then you can either simply bring his name, or you can say, "I have a professor who's very bright, he has the best of morals, he always has a bright smile on his face, he never derides anyone, he's punctual and on time, etc...". The second way is far more effective, especially if you assume that only this professor have this attributes. So the one who wants to know who he us, we will do his research to figure out which professor fits these descriptions. The Qur'an is full with references to Ahlul-Bayt, and the descriptions it gives only apply to them. It does not mention specific names for reasons better known to Allah (swt). If you wish to discuss this topic in details in the light of Quran then i will be very happy to do so.
Popular stories
Well the benchmark for me is not compliance with my view but the person's love and loyality to the Ahlul Bayt (as) of the Prophet (saww). Loving them is the wage of Risalat and if you knowingly deny the wage then you are nothing but a hypocrite therefore untrustworthy and a storymaker.
Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)
I ll look at it like that the fazail-e- AhleBayt are so numerous that even the naysayers have to accept them.
yes they are so called imams where did these person announce that they are imams.
where did hz. ali ra says that i am imam. where did hz. hassan ra says that i am imam. where did hz. hussain ra says that i am imam.
also hz ali ra have many sons, why you did not add word "imam" for these sons.
Ali r.a didn't have to say it himself. Prophet pbuh said it in his last khutba at the time of Hajj.
The other 4 sons of Hazrat Ali were shaheed in the battle of Karbala with Imam Hussain, therefore Hazarat Zain ul Abiden was the successor after the Shahadat of Hazrat Imam Hussain.
Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)
notice the manufacturers of the duplicate and fake products...... they make evry possible effort in packaging it like the original.......but at the end of the day original remains the original.........despite all the BS glorification that the enemies rcvd...the names of the divine and real will remain and endure whatever the enemies may throw at it.......Ali will remain Ali....
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The number of hadiths praising Muawiya are surely lesser than the ones praising Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. Atleast i have not come across many in the Saha books.
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thats the whole point if ahle sunnah was tilted so heavily in favor of ummayyads the sahih hadith will be full of praise for marwan & muawiyah ...but they are not
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Ofcourse there is hadiths from Imam Sadiq and Imam Baqir that are false and contradcitory, hence they are classified as fabricated. Same is the reason why a lot of stuff from Ibn Abbas and others is fabricated because it contradicts the other narrations by the same person. One person obviously cant say two different things about something for either he will be considered insane or a liar.
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true , not saying that there are no fabricated hadith ...but ur criteria for judging them is selective
also bear in mind many shia hadith not in line with later imamiyah and ithna ashari creed were also labelled fabricated ( thats why i recommend u read takim's works)
[quote]
Why you guys have narrations in your books from partisans of Imam Ali? The answer is; to buy the narrations some credibility. For example, if i told you i heared from a kid on the street that the economic situation is tight, you will shrug/laugh it off. But if i told you that i heared it on the TV that the governer of the state bank says the same thing then you will take serious notice. Stronger the source = more the weightage
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okay even if we do believe ur theory ( which i only partially do ) that will only be true if there are extremely partisan hadith from these people ( i.e those that go against shia creed)
Yet some of the bread and butter ( nonpolitical and mundane stuff) comes from many of these narraters.Here there cud be no ulterior motive to trace a hadith back to some supporter of Ali.
Ali r.a didn't have to say it himself. Prophet pbuh said it in his last khutba at the time of Hajj.
The other 4 sons of Hazrat Ali were shaheed in the battle of Karbala with Imam Hussain, therefore Hazarat Zain ul Abiden was the successor after the Shahadat of Hazrat Imam Hussain.
show me last sermon of holy prophet pbuh where did he pbuh said such thing.
[QUOTE]
Hadith
I will reject any hadith, be it Shia or Sunni, that contradicts the Quran regardless of who and where its coming from.
30 years of righteous caliphate = if you guys believed this hadith to be true then your opinion about Ayesha should be different because she rebelled against the righteous calipha (and clearly violated few commands of the Quran in the process).
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dont bring other issues into this discussion as events of first civil war and their subsequent interpretation has been done by many scholars of many other schools of thought.There is nothing "new" for 12ers to add here , most criticism by zaydis ,mutazilla and even sunni scholars of enemies of Ali is in mainstream books.
Infact just as fighting apostates came part of sunnah from abu bakr's example similarly fighting muslim rebels ( and laws pertaining to that) became part of sunnah from ali's example
And if rehablitation of some of defeated enemies of ali bothers u then those tribal leaders who fought abu bakr , were defeated and forgiven by them are also similarly rehablitated in sunni history.
[QUOTE]
Quran
The book of Allah does not name successor but very clearly gives qualities and attributes of a leader and a model of leadership. Quran does not name Imam Ali but there are two ways to refer to someone*. You can just simply bring his name, or you can refer to his descriptions and attributes*. If i asked you to know who your professor for English is then you can either simply bring his name, or you can say, "I have a professor who's very bright, he has the best of morals, he always has a bright smile on his face, he never derides anyone, he's punctual and on time, etc...". The second way is far more effective, especially if you assume that only this professor have this attributes. So the one who wants to know who he us, we will do his research to figure out which professor fits these descriptions. The Qur'an is full with references to Ahlul-Bayt, and the descriptions it gives only apply to them. It does not mention specific names for reasons better known to Allah (swt). If you wish to discuss this topic in details in the light of Quran then i will be very happy to do so.
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but where do u find these attributes from ? or who gave u this historical ali ?
historians and hadith collectors ...so without them Quran alone is not enuf for determing leadership
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Popular stories
Well the benchmark for me is not compliance with my view but the person's love and loyality to the Ahlul Bayt (as) of the Prophet (saww). Loving them is the wage of Risalat and if you knowingly deny the wage then you are nothing but a hypocrite therefore untrustworthy and a storymake.
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sorry to say but thats a lot rhetoric .... most sunnis also claim to love ahlulbayt just as shias do ( not talkin about nawasib like bilal phillips, taqi usmani etc)
but they see 12ers adoration of ahlulbayt akin to christians veneration of jesus christ