Alienation of Muslims in India - What next after Gujarat? (merged)

While 10% of the population is made up of Muslims, what political voice is being given to the Muslims of Gujarat? If any Muslims do come forward, they are being arrested and labeled as Pakistani spies under POTO !!

May god have mercy on the innocent Muslims, and save them from the Muslim burning Hindus?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=30503270

Lip service, but no tickets for Muslims
MAHESH DAGA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK SATURDAY, DECEMBER 07, 2002 12:41:13 AM ]

AHMEDABAD: In some ways Indian politics in the last decade and a half have revolved around a single question: The future of minority communities. But seldom has this question become as central as in the forthcoming Gujarat polls.

Yet the minorities remain profoundly peripheral to these elections both in terms of eventual outcome and representation. Consider the following. While Muslims constitute almost 10 per cent of the population in Gujarat, neither of the two principal parties have recognised their political claims.

While the BJP under Narendra Modi’s ‘‘uncompromising’’ leadership has blanked them out completely, the Congress has handed them a grand total of four seats.

Says a Muslim analyst: ‘‘You can’t argue that only Muslims can represent their own in a democracy. But when you look at how carefully the two parties have tried to accommodate every other caste and community — from Patels and Kshatriyas to SCs and STs — it’s clear that there’s been a cynical attempt to keep the Muslims out.’’

Hanif Lakdavala, who runs an NGO in Ahmedabad, says he understands the Congress strategy of not ‘‘giving the BJP a handle by putting up too many Muslims’’, but he is angered by the party’s refusal to even accept, much less raise, issues affecting minorities, particularly the plight of riot victims.

Lakdavala’s point is echoed by an old Muslim trader. ‘‘Other than Soniaji to some extent, have you heard anyone else raise the issue of post-Godhra violence in the elections?’’ he asks after attending a Congress rally addressed by Sonia Gandhi at the Polo Grounds in Vadodra.

‘‘The reason for this neglect is simple,’’ says a bitter Muslim youth in Naroda Patia — the scene of some of the city’s worst rioting. ‘‘The Congress has taken Muslim support for granted.’’

This exclusion of Muslims from the political process — except as voters ‘‘who would be herded like sheep into the polling booths’’, come December 12 — worries activists who feel that it could push the community towards fundamentalist causes. ‘‘When the space for real politics shrinks,’’ as one of them says, ‘‘it’s an invitation to extremism.’’

‘‘In that sense,’’ as activist Achyut Yagnik puts it, ‘‘these elections are already a victory for the Hindutva cause.’’

TOI Comment: Alienation of any group from the ‘mainstream’ is a dangerous development. Any democracy worth the name is inclusive, not exclusive.

10% of india muslim i thought it was more anyway i agree the muslims of india remind me of muslims of palestine occupied and oppressed!

Need to be liberated from the genocide that must hang over them every second of there lives in India!

ak47 wrote:

10% of india muslim i thought it was more anyway i agree the muslims of india remind me of muslims of palestine occupied and oppressed!


Did the Indian government ask them to stay back at the time of partition. They stayed back on their own just because they found India more comfortable and safe than Pakistan. No muslim is oppressed in India he or she is free to go to where ever they feel like (Pakistan, Bangladesh etc). Muslims are all over India right from Jammu & Kashmir. In Palestine Pakistan has no part to play even when Yaseer Arafat was under house arrest few months back he asked for India government assistance, he did not even bother to ask Pakistan for any assistance.

Need to be liberated from the genocide that must hang over them every second of there lives in India!


India needs to be liberated from the so called Islam disease called jihad.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by francis2k: *
...No muslim is oppressed in India he or she is free to go to where ever they feel like (Pakistan, Bangladesh etc). ..
[/QUOTE]

This says it all :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by francis2k: *
Did the Indian government ask them to stay back at the time of partition. They stayed back on their own just because they found India more comfortable and safe than Pakistan.

[/QUOTE]

Actually a lot of people stayed behind because its hard to just stand up and move to a new place leaving behind your previous home and businesses, friends / relatives etc. Relocation is hard on anyone...

[QUOTE]

No muslim is oppressed in India he or she is free to go to where ever they feel like (Pakistan, Bangladesh etc).

[/QUOTE]

I guess the 2000(conservative estimate by the government...5000 is more like it) muslims that got slaughtered brutally were experiencing generosity right ? Should they be thankful they were liberated of their lives ? Should the survivors be thankful of the nightmares they experience every night ? Should they be thankful of the flesh and emotional wounds they bear ? Nay they aint oppressed ..heh...

[QUOTE]

In Palestine Pakistan has no part to play even when Yaseer Arafat was under house arrest few months back he asked for India government assistance, he did not even bother to ask Pakistan for any assistance.

[/QUOTE]

Well good for him..and India in all its power responded by doing WHAT ? Did arafat get the assistance he wanted ? Besides...Arafat is a fool and a moron...

[QUOTE]

India needs to be liberated from the so called Islam disease called jihad.
[/QUOTE]

And where is Jihad being waged in India ? Lemme guess..Kashmire right ? Where there is a simple solution to the So Called 'Jihad' you talk about. Its called 'Self Determination' and is enforced by a UN Resolution. Offcourse India will never accept that will it ? Because doing so means going with the people of kashmire's will..and that wont be good for India now would it ? Because everyone knows what the People of Kashmire really want....and no they donot wanna stay with India.

P.S Your Democratic State full of so called 'Religious Freedom' has seen more independent seperation movements then any other country in the world. Gee i wonder why...maybe its because the minorities arnt really happy with how the predominant hindu nazistic government doesnt really like them.

Re: Alienation of Muslims in India - What next after Gujarat?

i think ur question is quite relevant.what will follow after gujarat.many here in kerala say,kerala will follow gujarat :frowning:

Maniac wrote:

P.S Your Democratic State full of so called 'Religious Freedom' has seen more independent seperation movements then any other country in the world. Gee i wonder why...maybe its because the minorities arnt really happy with how the predominant hindu nazistic government doesnt really like them.


I come from a minority (catholic) community in India. I do not see anything wrong in Indian democracy, infact I am a proud indian. Incidents like Gujarat were condemned by all communities including the hindus, that's why the world has faith in Indian constitution and democracy. What you say about the seperation movement is just a passing phase. You see what happened in PUNJAB inspite of all the money and forces they had they could not take an inch of the land, same will be the fate of other states where there is a seperation movement, the rouges (Islamic jehadis) will be wiped out of India.

Let Mushy whine more in the UN and where ever he gets the place. NO TAKERS FOR MUSHY.

A passing phase you say ? The movements have been going on for the greater part of the 50+ years of indian independence. Weather they have succeeded or not is an entirely different matter......most seperation movements donot succeed ..however they do point out a major but oft overlooked fact that the revoltee's and their supporters are obviously not content with their conditions....an Ideal democracy shouldnt have such a problem really.

I gathered from your name that you are christian..and as such a minority in India. Well sir how democratically are you represented in the indian government...what has the Indian government done to quell the hate crimes against follows of your religion in india ? Lemme know when such action takes place (and no cookie cutter promises donot count as actions)...

Oh and mind responding to the rest of my post ?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Maniac: *
A passing phase you say ? The movements have been going on for the greater part of the 50+ years of indian independence. Weather they have succeeded or not is an entirely different matter......most seperation movements donot succeed ..however they do point out a major but oft overlooked fact that the revoltee's and their supporters are obviously not content with their conditions....an Ideal democracy shouldnt have such a problem really.

I gathered from your name that you are christian..and as such a minority in India. Well sir how democratically are you represented in the indian government...what has the Indian government done to quell the hate crimes against follows of your religion in india ? Lemme know when such action takes place (and no cookie cutter promises donot count as actions)...

Oh and mind responding to the rest of my post ?
[/QUOTE]

everygroup is minority in someways . north and south is completly
different eventhough both have hinuds and muslim.

well gujrat may be repeaed elsewhere and the same time there may be aftershocks of gujrat which may destroy the fabric of india

Toward Hindu-Muslim militancy?
SWAMINOMICS/SWAMINATHAN S ANKLESARIA AIYAR

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 07, 2002 11:55:04 PM ]

Since independence, Hindu militancy has looked the biggest danger to our secular fabric. I have spent a long career combating the hate messages of groups like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. Yet I have a nasty feeling today that Islamic terror may have become an equally great danger.

The direct effect of terrorist attacks on temples has been limited. But the indirect effect could be lethal, by bestowing respectability on Hindu extremism. For the first time in our history, mass murder of a community could prove a winning electoral strategy for the BJP in Gujarat. If this establishes communal killing as the basis for electoral success, it could become official BJP strategy in state after state, ripping India apart.

The attack at Godhra was outrageous mass murder by a mob, not terrorism. However, the recent attacks on temples clearly represent Islamic terror.

We have overcome other forms of communal terror in the past, notably in Punjab. Militant Sikh groups targeted first Nirankaris and then Hindus, including many innocent bus travellers. After Indira Gandhi was murdered, some Hindus took mass revenge against innocent Sikhs in Delhi. Yet that did not bestow respectability on the Hindu killers. The Congress may have winked at it but did not condone it, let alone make mass murder an election strategy.

Ultimately Sikh terror was put down not by Hindu mobs, troops or police, but by the Sikh-dominated Punjab police. A communally explosive issue was solved through brutal but secular means. Hopefully, militancy in Kashmir too will one day be quashed by the Kashmir police (dominated by Muslims) in another secular, if brutal operation.

Ideally, a super-efficient police should catch terrorists and super-efficient courts should convict them speedily. Alas, our justice and police systems are pathetically slow and incompetent. They cannot combat even ordinary crime, let alone terrorism. Government terror alone is an effective counter.

Naxalites in West Bengal and Sikh militants in Punjab were put down by government terror, not rule of law. No proponent of civil rights could approve. In the long run we must develop a justice system that works. Till then, government counter-terror, with all its ham-handedness and injustice, is the only credible weapon.

But while this worked against Sikh militancy in Punjab and might work against Muslim militancy in Kashmir, it cannot work against Islamic terrorists unaffiliated to any state. The Punjab police could round up suspect Sikhs and the Kashmir police can round up suspect Muslims without making the issue look communal. But if Islamic terrorist attacks spread to states like UP and Rajasthan, and the local police round up and torture Muslim suspects, this will quickly be seen as Hindu communalism. And it may indeed be the case if clones of Narendra Modi come to power in these states.

That is entirely possible. If Modi wins in Gujarat, the balance of power in the BJP will shift to Hindutva extremists, who will use the communal card in next year’s state elections in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. I believe Congress will lose these states anyway because of drought distress and misgovernance arising from fiscal bankruptcy after the Pay Commission award. Yet if the BJP fights a la Modi in these states and wins, it will give the credit for victory to Hindu militancy rather than drought or bankruptcy. The temptation to use communal hate as a vote getter everywhere in India could become irresistible.

If so, do not expect Indian Muslims to remain quiescent. Some of them may cheer Pakistan at cricket matches, some may buy Osama T-shirts, but till now they have steered clear of international Islamic terrorism. We are lucky indeed that our Muslims have not so far been seduced and taken over by global jehadi outfits. We have suffered attacks on temples in Gujarat and Jammu, but these look like bungled amateur jobs. They do not look like the work of skilled international terrorists that wreaked havoc in Bali and Kenya.

But if Hindu militancy takes the BJP to victory in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, expect the worst. Expect international jehadi terror to worm its way into the Indian Muslim community and entrench itself there. What follows could make the recent temple attacks look like child’s play.

In the worst case, India could degenerate into a Hindu-Muslim battleground. Escalating and self-reinforcing communal militancy could lead to private armies of Hindu and Muslim terrorists battling while a demoralised state wrings its hands helplessly. Let me not exaggerate.I have sketched a worst-case scenario, not the most probable one. Actual outcomes could be less dire. But please recognise that Islamic terror is a global phenomenon knocking hard at our doors, and will surely gain entry, even a warm welcome, if encouraged by pogroms of the Gujarat variety. For that reason we desperately need Narendra Modi to lose in Gujarat. The opinion polls, alas, predict a different outcome.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=30585033&sType=1

anti muslim voilence in gujrat and its effects

here is a wonderful article in times of india about the policy of voilence carried out by bjp to come to power and the response of the indian muslims who so far have abstained from jihadi mentality

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=30585033&sType=1

Toward Hindu-Muslim militancy?
SWAMINOMICS/SWAMINATHAN S ANKLESARIA AIYAR

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 07, 2002 11:55:04 PM ]

Since independence, Hindu militancy has looked the biggest danger to our secular fabric. I have spent a long career combating the hate messages of groups like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. Yet I have a nasty feeling today that Islamic terror may have become an equally great danger.

The direct effect of terrorist attacks on temples has been limited. But the indirect effect could be lethal, by bestowing respectability on Hindu extremism. For the first time in our history, mass murder of a community could prove a winning electoral strategy for the BJP in Gujarat. If this establishes communal killing as the basis for electoral success, it could become official BJP strategy in state after state, ripping India apart.

The attack at Godhra was outrageous mass murder by a mob, not terrorism. However, the recent attacks on temples clearly represent Islamic terror.

We have overcome other forms of communal terror in the past, notably in Punjab. Militant Sikh groups targeted first Nirankaris and then Hindus, including many innocent bus travellers. After Indira Gandhi was murdered, some Hindus took mass revenge against innocent Sikhs in Delhi. Yet that did not bestow respectability on the Hindu killers. The Congress may have winked at it but did not condone it, let alone make mass murder an election strategy.

Ultimately Sikh terror was put down not by Hindu mobs, troops or police, but by the Sikh-dominated Punjab police. A communally explosive issue was solved through brutal but secular means. Hopefully, militancy in Kashmir too will one day be quashed by the Kashmir police (dominated by Muslims) in another secular, if brutal operation.

Ideally, a super-efficient police should catch terrorists and super-efficient courts should convict them speedily. Alas, our justice and police systems are pathetically slow and incompetent. They cannot combat even ordinary crime, let alone terrorism. Government terror alone is an effective counter.

Naxalites in West Bengal and Sikh militants in Punjab were put down by government terror, not rule of law. No proponent of civil rights could approve. In the long run we must develop a justice system that works. Till then, government counter-terror, with all its ham-handedness and injustice, is the only credible weapon.

But while this worked against Sikh militancy in Punjab and might work against Muslim militancy in Kashmir, it cannot work against Islamic terrorists unaffiliated to any state. The Punjab police could round up suspect Sikhs and the Kashmir police can round up suspect Muslims without making the issue look communal. But if Islamic terrorist attacks spread to states like UP and Rajasthan, and the local police round up and torture Muslim suspects, this will quickly be seen as Hindu communalism. And it may indeed be the case if clones of Narendra Modi come to power in these states.

That is entirely possible. If Modi wins in Gujarat, the balance of power in the BJP will shift to Hindutva extremists, who will use the communal card in next year’s state elections in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. I believe Congress will lose these states anyway because of drought distress and misgovernance arising from fiscal bankruptcy after the Pay Commission award. Yet if the BJP fights a la Modi in these states and wins, it will give the credit for victory to Hindu militancy rather than drought or bankruptcy. The temptation to use communal hate as a vote getter everywhere in India could become irresistible.

If so, do not expect Indian Muslims to remain quiescent. Some of them may cheer Pakistan at cricket matches, some may buy Osama T-shirts, but till now they have steered clear of international Islamic terrorism. We are lucky indeed that our Muslims have not so far been seduced and taken over by global jehadi outfits. We have suffered attacks on temples in Gujarat and Jammu, but these look like bungled amateur jobs. They do not look like the work of skilled international terrorists that wreaked havoc in Bali and Kenya.

But if Hindu militancy takes the BJP to victory in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, expect the worst. Expect international jehadi terror to worm its way into the Indian Muslim community and entrench itself there. What follows could make the recent temple attacks look like child’s play.

In the worst case, India could degenerate into a Hindu-Muslim battleground. Escalating and self-reinforcing communal militancy could lead to private armies of Hindu and Muslim terrorists battling while a demoralised state wrings its hands helplessly. Let me not exaggerate.I have sketched a worst-case scenario, not the most probable one. Actual outcomes could be less dire. But please recognise that Islamic terror is a global phenomenon knocking hard at our doors, and will surely gain entry, even a warm welcome, if encouraged by pogroms of the Gujarat variety. For that reason we desperately need Narendra Modi to lose in Gujarat. The opinion polls, alas, predict a different outcome.

The movements have been going on for the greater part of the 50+ years of indian independence.

Beacause of stupid governance of the past indian government the movement has survived otherwise it would have been a different story alltogether.

Weather they have succeeded or not is an entirely different matter......most seperation movements donot succeed ..however they do point out a major but oft overlooked fact that the revoltee's and their supporters are obviously not content with their conditions....

The answer is in it self.

an Ideal democracy shouldnt have such a problem really.

Are there no problems in other democratic countries. Problems are part are parcel of one's life and existense

kabir you have to see things larger prespective. compare it with afgan
situation even with 100% musilm population ethnic rivalry and war lordism exist and population is only 27 million. compare it with 1 billion
with more diversity .

If BJP is dethroned in Gujrat, there is a hope, if not let us say that Hindis have choosen a degraded path.......

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by francis2k: *
ak47 wrote:
Need to be liberated from the genocide that must hang over them every second of there lives in India!


India needs to be liberated from the so called Islam disease called jihad.
[/QUOTE]

Oh really so hindu fanatics raping of women and children then buring them alive is your so called liberation.

Jihad in india if there was a jihad in india there would be none of these hindu fanatics who go around lynching anyone that doe'snt belive in monkey god!

Jihad in india if there was a jihad in india there would be none of these hindu fanatics who go around lynching anyone that doe'snt belive in monkey god!

Then why are your so called freedom fighters hiding and killing the innocents in the Valley, I challenge them to come out in the open and face our security forces; if they are born of one father, then we will see who is going to finish whom. Nearly half of the terrorist population has been sent to hell what remains will also be sent to hell like the way we did in Punjab.

I see so we have BJP,VHP,ABC and Monkey magic supporter in the house!

"Killed the innocent don;t make me laugh" the indian forces are nothing but bunch of coward rapists and child killers!

it is a simple equation. Wherever muslims are in a large minority and do not have power, there are problems. You can look at any part of the world where this is true and you will find that there will be islamic terrorism in the name of jihad. That is the fact. What does this mean? It means that until there is a separation of politics from religion within Islam, muslim zealots in these lands, be it India, philippines, china, Russia, the west, pockets of indonesia...etc etc...will always create problems for the rest of the world.

So all this hue and cry about killing babies and rapes is made up justification for their illegitimate cause.

note: this is not an anti-muslim or anti-islam post. But a point to highlight the need for disengaging politics from religion.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
What does this mean? It means that until there is a separation of politics from religion within Islam, muslim zealots in these lands, be it India, philippines, china, Russia, the west, pockets of indonesia...etc etc...will always create problems for the rest of the world.

[/QUOTE]

seperation of religion as practised by the Hindutva government in India for example?

Or maybe the settlement building Israelis?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *

note: this is not an anti-muslim or anti-islam post. But a point to highlight the need for disengaging politics from religion.
[/QUOTE]

Your second sentence in the above post discounts your 'disclaimer :) Nice try !!