Britain guppies or british-associated guppies, please do respond to this.
I saw a debate today on Geo in which Brit muslim pakistanis were talking about issues they’re facing as a community, etc.
The one thing that kept propping was that they felt alienated by mainstream Brit society, and this alienation has led to terrorist attacks from people.
I don’t get it. How the hell do Paki brits feel alienated???
There are so many of you in that one little Island!!! And Pakis have been there for generations! Haven’t you people become united already and have managed to combat racism from mainstream society, by now?
How can you feel alienated when your community is so big, and should be so powerful!?!
I’m sorry, I fail to understand it - can someone explain how and why thy feel alienated?
I think a lot of it comes down to respect. While their numbers are now thankfully growing, there is still a lack of Pakistanis in the highly respected and paid careers in the city, namely finance, law, medicine, IT etc.
Add to that deep-rooted racism in Europe, the backwardness and lack of education of pakistanis living in the north of England (which, just for the record, is a dump) and you have a pretty nasty recipe. The first generation of south asains (indians and pakistanis) faced great hostility and racism when they first arrived in the 50’s/60’s forcing the desis to filter off and form their own communities, which are now ghettos. While hindus and sikhs have moved out and into the cities, many of these first generation pakistanis are too lazy to move. A lot of their families turn a blind eye to their daughters’ education and get them married off to some paindu relative back home so he can come over and make a life for himself here driving taxis or working in some local grocery and has no intention of mixing with people outside the pakistani community. Thankfully now a lot of pakistani girls are resisting this and insist on going to university, moulding out a career and on marrying an educated Brit born male who has more in common with her. As for the guys, least said the better Most of them in the ghettos think they’re black and thus throw their youth away neglecting their education. In the south of England its a lot better and the pakistanis down here are far better educated and in good careers.
Of course one of the main factor is, being muslims, pakistanis don’t indulge in the usual British pastimes of alcohol, bars and clubs so naturally they will be seen as outsiders to British culture. This isnt’ the case for hindus and sikhs who have no problem with drinking and clubbing. So after work on a Friday, while the gorai go off to clubs and bars, pakistanis will leave their colleagues and go home. Thus this specifically alienates and pin-points the pakistanis from the desi community as those that don’t integrate. Many gorai don’t understand this and term it as racism and deliberately not wanting to mix in, which isn’t the case.
Many questions arise from your comments, and I wonder if anything is being done to target these problems...
But if its about not going to clubs and bars after work...that's a bit weird. Why can't the Pakistani take the iniative and say they don't drink and why not go bowling instead or playing cricket instead.
The Brits have PLENTY of pastimes in which you don't necessarily have to drink or be in a pub! No?
R u sure about that? Born and riased here in NYC, the shaitani capital of the world probably, but i’ve never felt alienated coz i dont take part in drinking and clubbing and stuff…theres no rule here (or anywhere for that matter) that says you have to alienate youself socially and physically and at the same time lose ur beliefs and culture…
^ Sara, I saw a huge difference in the way Brits think and in the way Americans think. We don't feel alienated in the slightest bit out here usually, and most people don't shut themselves off in ghettos with no communication with non-muslim people.
That's why I don't understand this alienation concept, because we're living in a western country, and we're totally comfortable with our nonmuslim neighbors.
Well one thing that comes to my mind and i'm not sure if it even factors in or not is the physical distance... they're closer to Pak than we are, the flight there is shorter than if u go from here (from JFK in NYC to Pak, it's abt 16+ hrs, including delays and stuff which ALWAYS happen)..
I dont feel alienated because I grew up in an area with relatively few Pakistanis...My parents friends were Indian (hindu and sihk) White brits, Irish iranian etc...
the majority of my friends when i was young were of the Christain faith...roman Catholic, Church of England , Jehovah witness etc and Hindu and Sikh and a few Muslim
as we were growing up we were never told that we were pakistani, in fact I dont think I even heard of the country of Pakistan until I was about 10 or so...
I have never had the notion that I am different put in my head by either my parents or teachers or any other adult when I was younger and therefore dont feel that I am.
there is always a bit of exaggeration everywhere Gurdya. and stop watching those Non Authentic channels!
I live in a place where in about 20,000 population I might be one of few dozen Asians in whole town! and till now I didn't come across with any negative sentiments or anything! Nor we have any CNBC type channel, blaming all muslims or Pakistani's in particular!
as for not blending with British culture is concerned! it not limited to just UK, everywhere in the world if you look for the 1st generation immigrants you will see that they don't blend with new culture just like that! it always takes two or three generations to blend in! Our new generation is very well integrated to British society! BUT there are still some boundries we CHOSE not to cross for obvious reasons.
Whilst it’s true that most people of Pakistani descent over here don’t feel a part of larger society and are indifferent to this country I don’t think it's the only factor in creating terrorists, our parents and grandparents immigrant generations were even more further removed from mainstream British society and still are but they don’t feel the need to blow up a few white people or hate anyone, and none of them hold extremist views like a few individuals from our generation. Our alienation in this country is mainly the fault of the racist attitude of the whites (I would have used 'native' but even they migrated here at some point in history) towards us but we are also to be blamed, Paki descended people over here have not even tried to assimilate into larger society or ever tried to tackle the xenophobia prevalent amongst the white population towards us, even those amongst us who are doctors and lawyers would rather live in crappy Paki areas and limit their social lives to their own cliques, this sort of attitude is limited to South Asian Muslims, on the other hand the North African, Turkish and Arab Muslims have pretty much assimilated into British culture and at the same time maintain their religion and the values which come with it, you’ll never seen an Arab or Iranian feeling the need to hold onto the cultural habits of his former country be that cuisine, costume or language and when ever you ask one of the what their nationality is they wont say “Yemeni/Moroccan” or “Arab” but just plain simple “British” or “English”, sometimes adding “...of Arab descent”, maybe that's why they're more accepted by the white people over here.
We can learn a thing or two from our Arab descended brethren in this country and come to terms with the fact that this country is our home now and (unless we’re deported back) we’ve left Pakistan and Gujerat behind us, whilst it’s okay to have a soft spot for the land of our ancestors we need to let go of those old identities and accept new ones, life is too short to worry about silly things like heritage, what is culture except a way of life created by a group of people? It’s not consistent anyway since it's forever evolving and what’s language except a medium of communication? The nation of our grandparents is not necessarily ours; going by that logic we’re all African, we belong to the nation we’re born and grew up amongst and whose language we speak, and as for race then no "race" be it "White" or "Brown" is homogenous anyway, I don’t mean to encourage nationalistic patriotism or blind alleigance to our nations because that’s forbidden in our religion towards any nation but I mean to say just accept our new identities because juggling two identities at once is confusing and it's no wonder we're not accepted, if we want respect we're going to have to respect this country's culture, like they say 'when in rome do as the romans do', if we come to our senses at least our future generations will have one place to call home and not grow up with an identity crisis like we have done.
So from this day forth I am just plain simple "British/English", of Pakistani descent, Indian/Afghan descent before that, Central Asian before that and Caucasus before that with a lot of other crap mixed in on the way of course, African before that..Oh I don't know you get the idea!!
Its just one example, theres a whole load of factors contributing. I personally have never had this problem as with the other new generation pakistanis. Most have integrated well and have been accepted just fine so when we hear of this alienation its sometimes hard to make sense of. But the Brits are a strange bunch. While they’re very open minded on foreign affairs they are very myopic on cultural issues at home. Deep rooted racism hasn’t helped. The 1st generation pakistanis (many who were backward) who bore the brunt of it are suspicious and have failed to move out of their ghettos while the migrants who went to America did so later on, were not so backward and didn’t face the problem of being alienated. American people seem more accepting of people of other cultures but the opposite on foreign policy
i think it also has to do with the level of education these migrants came with in the host country. people who came to US or are coming to canada recently are more educated from middle or upper class families. while people who can to UK 2 or generations ago are mostly from villages with less education, and hence it was difficult for them to understand the host country's culture or how to interact with them. and ofcourse racism didnt help either.
(these are just generalizations based on things i have read or seen in the news papers and media. i could be wrong.)
Most of them in the ghettos think they’re black and thus throw their youth away neglecting their education. In the south of England its a lot better and the pakistanis down here are far better educated and in good careers.
