more cut and paste jobs.
Subhanallah guys.
Whilst we're on the topic. The Quran is whole don't mix and match to suit your needs.
Allah has said in Quran that 72 out of 73 sects will be wrong, so please do carry on debating, i'm sure you will learn the truth one day and the correct followers of Allahs religion will gain Jannat inshallah.
May allah guide us all.
Raredimonds and gold,
How can you state that the Quran you have is the true and correct meaning.
You have been telling us that this is not the correct meaning as it denys the sunni thought not giving the ahle-bayt thier right under the sun.
I tell you again that sunnis thought of "I am right and what I have is enough for me" denyd Hazrat Ali his right as the succsessor of Prophet Mohammed.
If you dont beive me go see ammars post on how Nehjul-balagaha can be read when "we have the hadith and Quran"
May Allh show us the right path and the path that leads us to greatness in heaven and earth.
Some sunni debators are needed urgently to answer the points raised by ramesha and Salman in the above posts regarding succession of Ali to Prophet Muhammad.
Openings available. Why are they quiet, or just ignoring.
Hurry up.
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited December 22, 2000).]
Originally posted by Salman-:
**First of all the verse that claims that wilayat of Imam Ali(AS)
[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow**
I dont see “ALI” written anywhere in this ayah.
If it was to be Ali, why would Allah mention Abu Bakr’s name (about teh cave incident–mentioned in teh other post) and not ALi’s?
I mean, surely Mohammed’s successor is much more important than of Abu Bakr’s incident in a cave, right?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
**
It’s not how fast you were GOING, It’s how fast you STOPPED!**
Surah 40 Ghafir ayat 35:
Those who dispute about the ayat of Allah, without any authority that has come to them, it is greatly hateful and disgusting to Allah and to those who believe. Thus does Allah seal up the heart of every arrogant, tyrant.
Al.Qamar 54:17 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
Sister if you doubt it would you please tell us who is it referring to then, did you read my earlier post, how does this Ayat link to Hazrat Ali. Even the the other Ayat you are talking about doesnt mention Abu Bakr,but shia and sunni we all agree from the history that the other freared companion who was grieving was Abu Bakr and if you don’t agree with that, please give us references that who is it referring too.
I guess some people just have trouble accepting the truth.
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited December 23, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Salman-:
**As-Salamun-Alaykum
To analyze this
It is said that Holy Quran contains the knowledge of everything in the world(I don't know if its true or not).
However the Holy Quran dos not mention the number of rakaats for namaaz. Does that mean we should stop praying?
No, because hadith tell us that. Similarly hadith also tell us about the succesorship after the Prophet(SAWS).
As to shias only stating 'their hadith' to defend shiaism. That's not completely true.
There are still hadith from sunnie sources that clearly talk about the Ahl-al-Bait (AS) and the leadership of Imam Ali(AS) after Prophet Muhammad(SAWS).
Btw Shiasm is more a religon of 'love' then a religon of hatred. Love for the Ahl-Bayt(AS)
Anyways 'Analyze this' thanks for being non-biased towards shias
Peace be with you
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Allah's peace and blessings be on Muhammad(SAWS)and his progeny(AS)
[This message has been edited by Salman- (edited December 21, 2000).]**
[/quote]
good point brother Salman. You seem to be an Alim!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Salman-:
**As-Salamun-Alaykum
To analyze this
It is said that Holy Quran contains the knowledge of everything in the world(I don't know if its true or not).
ANSWER ** Quran definitely does not explain knowledge of "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD", explicitly.**
However the Holy Quran dos not mention the number of rakaats for namaaz. Does that mean we should stop praying?
ANSWER** Quran asks Muslims to pray but does not tell them how many times and how many rakaats. Not mentioning number of rakaats does not prohibit muslims from praying. Read your argument again and correct it.**
Btw Shiasm is more a religon of 'love' then a religon of hatred. Love for the Ahl-Bayt(AS)
ANSWER ** It is love for Ahl-Bayt and EXTREME hate for other Sahabas eg. Abu Bakr, Umar, Aisha, Othman etc. Is not it true? what is tabarra??**
** I am still unbiased, just trying to find the truth.
Analyze this**
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited December 23, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by analyze it (edited December 23, 2000).]
good work brother.
Analyze
You all say we don't like Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman and Ayesha, but did you ever researched or tried to find out what is the reason behind it, please read the old posts on Ghadeer-e-khum and on the Sahabas by other brothers like Allshah, and the posts on Ayesha, and tell me if you think does there act justify them to be respected
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited December 23, 2000).]
The true meaning of "Ahl al-Bayt."
The words "ahl al-bayt" appear in the second half of the verse thirty-three in Surah al-Ahzab. The relevant verses constitute a self-contained section from verse twenty-eight to thirty-four.
O Prophet, say to your wives, If you should desire the worldly life and its adornment, then come, I will provide for you and give you a gracious release.(28) But if you should desire Allah and His Messenger and the home of the Hereafter, then indeed, Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a great reward.(29) O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality, for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and that for Allah is ever easy.(30) And whoever of you devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness, We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a generous provision.(31) O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah, then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.(32) And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wants only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.(33) And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom *. Indeed, allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things].(34)
Verse 28 & 29 are addressed to the Prophet SAW. Verse 30 & 31 are explicitly addressed to the Prophet’s wives. Verse 32 again addresses the Prophet’s wives directly and reminds them that they are not like ordinary women.
Then comes verse 33, the widely quoted Shi’ah argument for the infallibility and supremacy of Ali. The first half of the verse says: "And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance." It is quite clear that these words are a continuation of the previous verses which are directly addressed to the Prophet’s wives. The second half of the verse then says: "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification."
These words show clearly that the whole section is addressed to the Prophet SAW and his wives. The verbs and pronouns used in the preceding and following verses are feminine in gender. In verse 33, however, pronouns used after "ahl al-bayt" are masculine. This is because in Arabic grammar the masculine gender is used when both males and females are included. Thus, the verses as a whole refer to and include the Prophet’s wives. Ali, Fatimah and the noble children, al-Hasan and al-Husayn by virtue of the Prophet’s supplication have also been included among his family members.
The Shi’ahs quote only the second half of verse 33 and claim that only those four and not the Prophet’s wives constitute the members of the Prophet’s family. If the Shi’ah version is accepted and the Prophet’s wives are excluded from the term "ahl al-bayt," it would mean that from verse 29 to the clause under discussion, Almighty Allah: asked the Prophet’s wives to choose between this world and the next, warned them of a double punishment in case of unseemly conduct, promised them a double reward if they were virtuous, reminded them to be models of decency and decorum, exhorted them to establish regular prayer and charity and then says that He has enjoined upon them all those things because He wants to remove impurity from Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al Husayn! WHERE IS THE LOGIC?
The Term "ahl al-Bayt" in the Quran
Innumerable pages of Shi’ah books are devoted to the argument that the term "ahl al-bayt" does not include the Prophet’s wives. The reason for this is obvious. If the term "ahl al-bayt" included the Prophet’s wives, then they too would have been purified of sins like "Ali and his descendants." That would negate the Shi’ah myth of Ali’s absolute superiority and destroy the foundation of the imamate doctrine. Hence, Shi’ah scholars, historians, and commentators on the Quran have produced vast amounts of literature presenting the argument that Ali and his descendants are the only legitimate family members and that the Prophet’s wives are not included in the term "ahl al-bayt." Whereas, Allah clearly states in the Quran in the ayah which has been quoted above it’s TRUE and ABSOLUTE form!
The Quran records an incident in the house of Prophet Abraham. When the angels gave him the good news of a son and a grandson, his wife exclaimed, "Shall I bear a child while I am an old woman…" The angels replied:
"Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the household."(11:73)
It is obvious from the use of a feminine verb that the term "ahl al-bayt'" here refers to and includes Prophet Abraham’s wife. There appears to be no reason that the same term used in Surah al-Ahzab would not include the Prophet Muhammad SAW’s wives.
It seems relevant here to point out a unique honor bestowed upon the Prophet’s wives. In the Quran, Allah refers to them as "Wives of the Prophet," not "Wives of Muhammad," thus associating them with the attributes of Prophethood rather than the personality of Muhammad SAW. In contrast, the wives of other Prophets were called "the wife of Noah," "wife of Lot," "wife of Abraham," etc. The Quran thus associates these women, with the personalities of the Prophets and not the attributes of prophethood. Thus, the Quran bestowed an additional honor upon Prophet Muhammad’s wives.
Furthermore, the Quran clearly states:
"O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women."(33:32)
"The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than one of another, and his wives are their mothers."(33:6)
Alas! For these noble persons Shi’ahs have nothing but abuse, even going to the extent of denying them their right to being classified as Prophet Muhammad SAW’s family members.*
Returning to the discussion of the "verse of purity," the word "tatheer" needs to be explained. It simply means "purification," and Allah stated that He wanted to purify the Prophet’s family. Shi’ahs explain this as being Allah’s declaration of their infallibility, which they claim applies only to Ali, Fatimah, and their descendants. IF the Shi’ah interpretation of the word is accepted, then the Prophet’s wives would also be included as "infallible." Additionally, the term "purification" has been used in connection with the warriors who fought in the battle of Badr. See Surah al-Anfal, 8:11. Consequently, all the warriors of Badr should also be classified as "infallible." There were many of many of the warriors of Badr alive and present at the time of the Prophet’s demise. But according to Shi’ah beliefs, all of them gave up Islam and became disbelievers, although Quran uses the same term, "tatheer," for them as well. To quote Shi’ah sources.
"After the death of the Prophet SAW, all his companions except three gave up Islam. They were Miqdad, Abu Dharr, and Salman." Furu al-Kafi vol. 2, p.115
"There is a narration by Imam al-Baqir that after the death of the Prophet SAW, all the Prophet’s companions except three became disbelievers. They were Salman, Abu Dharr and Miqdad. He was then asked about Ammar. The imam said, 'He first denied the truth but accepted it later on.' The imam then added, 'If you really want to know the one who never had the slightest doubt about the truth [regarding Ali’s imamate], it was only Miqdad, since Salman for a while had doubts.'" Bihar al-Anwar, p.46
Can someone tell us where are the references Imam al-Baqir has used to claim that all became disbelievers after the death of the Prophet SAW as Shi’ah sources claim?
salaam Redmonds,
Well my dear sis lets imagine whatever u have written in defence of ayat-e-tutheer is true, u want me to prove by other ayats from quran that ahl-e-Bayt were infallible (not wives). I suggest you read surat-e-tehreem and many many other verses where allah has warned hazoor’s wives over n over. I have found many other errors in your findings too (i m assuming they r yours!) e.g. quran saying “oh prophet’s wives u r not like others”, well they r not becauz they r UMMAHAT-ul-MOMINEEN offcourse. They r haraam on other murds except for prophet (pbuh).
Ohhh i dont know where to start from, i got so much to say. ANyways in case its all your findings, i suggest you to read the three items i can recall rightnow:
Now lets assume ayat-e-tutheer is doubtful (which isn’t) then what you make of the ayats/hadith i mentioned above.
well and about Imam Baqir (as). I will have a look in bahar-ul-anwaaar and reply to whatever u have came up with up there. First of all my dear sis its not that simple to prove any of 12 imams wrong.
More than thousand years have gone by and not a single prominent muslims aalim has came up with a minor incident where imams commited a mistake. (RELATED:read dua-e-Ibrahim in quran).
lemme ask u how much u know about imam baqir (as). I respect Bibi Ayesha and Hazrat Abu bakar (may allah forgive them), but have very little respect for Omar, and i have genuine reasons for that (u may wish to ask!).
Now b4 saying anything about imam baqir (as), what do u know abt him? how much do u know abt him. Have u every read his life history by any aalim (shia or sunni). I suggest u shuld, then u will know what level of person he was!
Did u even know that he was the grandson of Imam Hussein (as).
I leave it all to you and hope it was copy paste job u did up there becuz if it was not then u got to study more about imams b4 making any judgements.
salaam
ramesha
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by ramesha (edited December 24, 2000).]
As-Salamun alaikum
Rare Diamonds. First of all let me make it clear THAT IT IS A UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT BETWEEN SHIA AND SUNNI SCHOLARS THAT THE AHL-AL-BAYT INCLUDES THE 5 PPL THE PROPHET(SAWS), ALI(AS), FATIMA(AS), HASAN(AS) AND HUSAYN(AS).
So why do you keep repeating your questions?
No, the wives are not included in the ahlul bayt(AS).
Secondly the key question here is the word RIJS(uncleanliness). The word rijs both implies spiritual and physical impurity.
Now according you the followers of badr became infalliable. Now look at the way the ayah is presented :
Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain(rijs) of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.
This clearly tells us that the that followers at badr were made free from satans control TEMPORARILY FOR THE BATTLE. Note the past tense. Also note the reason there were made free from satans control
"to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith..."
This clearly tells us that satans grip was removed for particualr period of time for a particaulr event. However in the Ayat of tatheer there is no such indication
The ayat of tatheer uses a present tense where Allah (SWT) has removed rijs from the ahlul-Bayt (AS) for good.
Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness(rijs) from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
Please read my postings
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Peace and Blessings be on Muhammad(SAWS) and his Ahlul Bayt(AS)
[quote]
Originally posted by Rarediamonds & Gold:
Returning to the discussion of the "verse of purity," the word "tatheer" needs to be explained. It simply means "purification," and Allah stated that He wanted to purify the Prophet’s family. Shi’ahs explain this as being Allah’s declaration of their infallibility, which they claim applies only to Ali, Fatimah, and their descendants. IF the Shi’ah interpretation of the word is accepted, then the Prophet’s wives would also be included as "infallible." Additionally, the term "purification" has been used in connection with the warriors who fought in the battle of Badr. **See Surah al-Anfal, 8:11. Consequently, all the warriors of Badr should also be classified as "infallible." There were many of many of the warriors of Badr alive and present at the time of the Prophet’s demise. But according to Shi’ah beliefs, all of them gave up Islam and became disbelievers, although Quran uses the same term, "tatheer," for them as well. To quote Shi’ah sources.
"After the death of the Prophet SAW, all his companions except three gave up Islam. They were Miqdad, Abu Dharr, and Salman." Furu al-Kafi vol. 2, p.115
"There is a narration by Imam al-Baqir that after the death of the Prophet SAW, all the Prophet’s companions except three became disbelievers. They were Salman, Abu Dharr and Miqdad. He was then asked about Ammar. The imam said, 'He first denied the truth but accepted it later on.' The imam then added, 'If you really want to know the one who never had the slightest doubt about the truth [regarding Ali’s imamate], it was only Miqdad, since Salman for a while had doubts.'" Bihar al-Anwar, p.46
Can someone tell us where are the references Imam al-Baqir has used to claim that all became disbelievers after the death of the Prophet SAW as Shi’ah sources claim?
**
[/quote]
As-Salamun-alaikum
"These words show clearly that the whole section is addressed to the Prophet SAW and his wives. The verbs and pronouns used in the preceding and following verses are feminine in gender. In verse 33, however, pronouns used after "ahl al-bayt" are masculine. This is because in Arabic grammar the masculine gender is used when both males and females are included. Thus, the verses as a whole refer to and include the Prophet’s wives. Ali, Fatimah and the noble children, al-Hasan and al-Husayn by virtue of the Prophet’s supplication have also been included among his family members."
MY DEAR RARE DIAMONDS LET ME TELL YOU A LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT THE ARABIC LANGUAGE
WHEN BOTH MALES AND FEMALES ARE BEING ADDRESSED AND THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ARE MALE THEN A 'MASCULINE PRONOUN' IS USED. OK NOW HERE ACCORDING TO YOU THE WIVES ARE ALSO INCLUDED CORRECT?
COUNT THE NUMBER OF FEMALES: BIBI FATIMA(as) +9 WIVES OF THE PROPHET(as) (i AM NOT SURE OF THE EXACT NUMBER. SO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF FEMALES IS AROUND 10. NOW COUNT THE NUMBER OF MALES PROPHET (SAWS), ALI(as), HASAN(as), HUSAYN(as). TOTAL MALES =3
NOW THEN SINCE THE MAJORITY IS OF FEMALES THEN WHY IS A MASCULINE NOUN USED. WHENEVER THERE IS FEMALE MAJORITY THE NOUN CHANGES TO A FEMININE ONE. HOWEVER HERE ITS MASCULINE.
THERE CAN BE TWO REASONS:
1)EITHER THE WIVES ARE NOT INCLUDED
2)MAZALLAH THE AYAT IS WRONG?
SO NOW IF WE LOOK AT THE REAL AHLUL-BAYT ONE THAT IS ACCEPTED BY BOTH SCHOLARS (SHIA AND SUNNI). HERE THE MAJORITY IS MALE AND THERE IS ONLY ONE FEMALE. SO SINCE THE MAJORITY IS MALE THEN A MASCULINE MAKES SENSE.
THERE YOU GO SIS I HAVE PROVEN THROUGH ARABIC GRAMMAR THAT INCLUDING THE WIVES OF THE PROPHET(SAWS) IN THIS AYAH WOULD MAKE THE AYAH INCORRECT.
NOW I HAVE MADE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THE AHLUL BAYT(AS) DOES NOT INCLUDE I REPAT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE WIVES OF THE PROPHET(SAWS).
PLEASE READ SAHIH MUSLIM, THE CHAPTER ENTITLED THE MERITS OF THE AHLUL BAYT OF THE PROPHET.
WA-SALAMUN-ALAIKUM-WA-RAHMATULLAHI-WA-BARAKATU
PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE ON MUHAMMAD(saws) AND AHLUL BAYT(as)
So you people are trying ur level best here to prove ur point. But its only a matter of comon sence, ISLAM means to enter into peace, so how can u put in all that hate in it and hate for people who were the closest to the Prophet. And then u guyz go around torturing ur selves for a thing that most of u dont even know and even induldge ur innocent children in it, I think its abt time that u ppl should grow up,although am not a perfect muslim, but it realy hurts when the rest of the world is shown ISLAM the way u ppl follow it. The older genrations must have been a little illetrate but I think now every one has axcess to good education and even relegious education. so please put an end to the misery and pain u ppl r goin through just for nothing. the only thing u will get out of it is pain and hate for other muslims.
As much as I would like to stuff my point in
to ur heads I think I think its useless unless u try to find the real meaning of quran AND sayings of the PROPHET.
Take it easy and dont plz dont kill ur self coz u know that is haram unless u ppl have manupilated that part too.
[quote]
Originally posted by azee1:
So you people are trying ur level best here to prove ur point. But its only a matter of comon sence, ISLAM means to enter into peace, so how can u put in all that hate in it and hate for people who were the closest to the Prophet. And then u guyz go around torturing ur selves for a thing that most of u dont even know and even induldge ur innocent children in it, I think its abt time that u ppl should grow up,although am not a perfect muslim, but it realy hurts when the rest of the world is shown ISLAM the way u ppl follow it. The older genrations must have been a little illetrate but I think now every one has axcess to good education and even relegious education. so please put an end to the misery and pain u ppl r goin through just for nothing. the only thing u will get out of it is pain and hate for other muslims.
As much as I would like to stuff my point in
to ur heads I think I think its useless unless u try to find the real meaning of quran AND sayings of the PROPHET.
Take it easy and dont plz dont kill ur self coz u know that is haram unless u ppl have manupilated that part too.
[/quote]
salaam,
Its painful to read yr illetrate thoughts. My dear brother we mourn and cry over what NABBIES cried over.....what hazrat Ibrahim cried over, what hazoor cried over. Crying is sunnat of nabbies. Hazrat Yaqoob or Harzt Essa, Hazrat Yonis or Hazrat Yosuf, they all cried. We mourn for no one but the prince of paradise Imam hussein (as). Its good to see you admiting that u dont know much abt islam, so better not point fingers at others.
This mourning is result of a promise. A promise between a father and daughter. Mahboob e ilahi Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (pbuh) promised lady of paradise bibi Fatima (as) that there will be a nation to cry over her son. Yet there r ppl like u who object while we are the ones crying.....
You said something abt our baap dadas. I m not a syed but let me tell u one thing, most of these ppl crying r SYEDS, and by insulting there baap dadas u r insulting no one but your own religion.
WAFFA KA NOOR DUNIYAH SAY MUDHAM NAHEE HOTA
GHAM-e-SHABBIR BHARTA JA RAHA HAY KUM NAHEE HOTA
......................u dont even know what happened at karbala, do u........ohh i cant write anymore.
Wa’salam.
Reply:
Allah warned Huzoor’s wives over and over, for the reason that they were not "ordinary" women and part of Prophet SAW’s ahl al Bayt. The purpose of warning them was because they were models for "ordinary" women. Had the wives done anything wrong their punishment would have been twicely as severe compared to that of an "ordinary" person. Don’t pick and drop parts of ayahs. Read the whole ayah. You are only taking parts of it. If you read it whole you would see that it is directed towards the Prophet SAW and his wives. I have stated the whole ayah in my above post. Here it is once again:
O Prophet,** say to your wives*, *If you should desire the worldly life and its adornment, then come, I will provide for you and give you a gracious release.(28) But if you should desire Allah and His Messenger and the home of the Hereafter, then indeed, Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a great reward.(29)** O wives of the Prophet*, *whoever of you should commit a clear immorality, for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and that for Allah is ever easy.(30) And whoever of you devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness, We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a generous provision.(31) O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah, then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.(32) And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wants only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.(33) And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom *. Indeed, allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things].(34)
Verse 28 & 29 are addressed to the Prophet SAW. Verse 30 & 31 are explicitly addressed to the Prophet’s wives. Verse 32 again addresses the Prophet’s wives. Shi'ahs only quote half of 33. You have to comprehend, that you can not picks bits and pieces. Pick those which suit you and drop those which do not.
You can not deny the word of Allah.
Now Hadith al-Kisa
Let’s return to the kisa (mantle) incident you are talking about. After the "verses of purity" were revealed, the Prophet SAW gathered Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn under his mantle and prayed to Allah to purify them as members of his ahl al-bayt. According to Shi’ahs, Ali, Fatimah, and their descendants are the only legitimate ahl al bayt (family members) by virtue of this hadith, who have been purified of all of their sins and are thus infallible. This supports Ali’s right to the imamate and is recorded in Shi’ah books as "hadith al kisa." Sunni books of hadiths also record this incident in correlation with verses of 28-34 of Surah al-ahzab. Brings up the following points:
If ahl al-bayt in the "verse of purity" (v.33) refers only to the above-mentioned four persons, the Prophet SAW would have known it. Why, then, was it necessary for the Prophet SAW to collect the four, throw his mantle over them and state that they were his ahl al-bayt? Did he for a moment think that Allah did not know his ahl al-bayt? Or did he want to confirm his own understanding of ahl al-bayt? Moreover, when Allah had already promised to purify his ahl bayt, why did he then make a separate supplication for Ali and his family? Did he not have full faith in Allah’s promise? These questions automatically emerge from the Shi’ah interpretation of this hadith.
Would it not be more logical and realistic to accept the Sunni interpretation of "hadith al-Kisa." Which is that since the whole discourse in those verses was addresed to the Prophet SAW’s wives, it is they (the wives) who were primarily specified by the term "ahl al bayt." This is perhaps the reason that when Umm Salamah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to include her, he SAW told her, "Remain in your place, you are [already] in a good state." He did, however, make a special supplication for Ali, Fatimah, and their children, so that they would also receive Allah’s blessings and purification.
It should be added that this action of the Prophet SAW was not limiated to Ali and his family members. At-Tirmidhi recorded in his book of hadiths:
"It is narrated by al-Abbas [the Prophet’s uncle] that the Prophet SAW said to him, 'On Monday, come to me and bring your sons. I shall make a supplication for you which will benefit you and your sons.' Al-Abbas said that he and his sons presented themselves before the Prophet SAW, who placed his mantle over them and prayed, 'O Allah, grant forgiveness to al-Abbas and his sons and cleanse their hearts so they will not commit sins.'"
If the mantle incident is taken as declaration of Ali’s infallibility, then al-Abbas and his sons could have claimed the same. Thus, it becomes clear that the mantle incident neither excluded the Prophet’s wives from his household (ahl al-bayt) nor served as a declaration of infallibility for Ali and his descendants.
Dua’e Ibraheemi:
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with words * and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, ‘Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people.’ [Abraham] said, ‘My covenant does not include the wrong doers."Surah al-Baqarah, 2:124
When read as a whole, the verse completely negates the Shi’ah concept of hereditary imamate. It speaks of Abraham, who was a divinely designated prophet and leader of his people.
"And We make them leaders [imams], guiding by Our command." Surah al-Anbiya 2:173
The Shi’ah explanation of this verse is that an imam is always inspired and designated by Allah. Thus, the Muslim Ummah has no choice in the selection or election of their leaders. Again, Shi’ahs quote the verse without regard for the preceding ones which define the pronoun "them."
"And We gave him * Isaac and Jacob in addition, and each [of them] We made righteous. And We mad them leaders, guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving Zakah; and they were worshippers of Us." Surah al-Anbiya 21:72-73
These two verses speak again of Prophets, who were divinely appointed. But Shi’ahs quote only the portion which they associate with their Imams.
well and about Imam Baqir (as). I will have a look in bahar-ul-anwaaar and reply to whatever u have came up with up there. First of all my dear sis its not that simple to prove any of 12 imams wrong.
Reply:
Let’s look at some of the Imams shall we?
All authentic Sunni sources and Shi’ah books concede that the Imams (Ali’s descendants) showed utmost love and respect for the first three caliphs and considered them to be the legitimate Imams of the Muslim Ummmah. Here are a few quotations which illustrate this:
The Shi’ah’s Second Imam: al-Hasn bin Ali
Al-Hasan reported that the Prophet SAW said: "Abu Bakr is for me [like] my ears, Umar [like] my eyes, and Usman [like] my heart." Tabaqat Ibn Sa’d vol 8 p.10
Al-Hasan had 8 sons and named two of them after the first Caliphs. Their names are al-Hasan, Zayd, Umar, al-Qasim, Abu Bakr, Talhah, Abdur-Rahman and Ubaydullah. *Tareekh al-Ya’qubi vol.*4 p.179
The Shi’ahs Third Imam: al-Husayn bin Ali
Al-Husayn had several sons. History records that he named two of them Abu Bakr and Umar.
The Shia’ahs fourth Imam: 'Ali Zayn al-Abideen bin al-Husayn
"Abu Safar said that Zayn al-Abideen frequently used [to wrap himself in] a certain sheet. Someone asked him the reason for using that sheet so frequently. He replied, 'This is the sheet that my sincere, beloved, kind and compassionate friend, Umar, wrapped around my body. Indeed, Umar was a great servant of Allah. May Allah be pleased with him." The narrator added that Zayn al-Abideen began to weep while saying these words. Ibid vol. 2, p. 228
The Shia’ah’s Fifth Imam: Muhammad Al-Baqir
Imam al-Baqir said: "One who is not aware of the virtues of Abu Bakr is ignorant of the sunnah on the noble Prophet SAW."* Illal Ibn Abi Shaybah,* vol 4. P. 179
When Imam Abu Hunaifa went to Madinah, he asked Muhammad al-Baqir his opinion about Abu Bakr and Umar. Al-Baqir replied, 'May Allah be pleased with them.' Abu Hunaifa told him that there was a common belief in Iraq that he * had disassociated himself from these persons. He replied, 'May Allah protect me! By the Lord of Ka’bah, they tell a lie.' He then reminded Abu Hunaifah of Umar’s marriage to Umm Kulthum, the daughter of Ali and Fatimah, and asked him, 'How could have Ali given his daughter [in marriage] to Umar if he was not worthy of this marriage?' Abu Hunaifah then said, 'Why do you not put this down in writing and send it to [the Shia’ahs] of Iraq?' To this al-Baqir said, 'They will not accept my writing.” *As-Sawa’iq al-Muharriqah, p.*28
Jabir reported, "I asked al-Baqir, 'Has there ever been among the Prophet’s family members a group which denounced Abu Bakr and Umar?' He replied, 'No, I myself love both of them, respect them and pray that Allah be pleased with them.'" *Tabaqat Ibn Sa’d p.*236
The Shi’ahs Sixth Imam: Ja’far as-Sadiq
"Someone informed Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq that a certain person thought that he * detested and denounced Abu Bakr and Umar. Ja’far replied, 'I have nothing to do with this person. Rather, I hope that my relationship with Abu Bakr may bring blessings upon my family.' Ar-Riyadah an-Nathirah, vol1. P. 59
The Shi’ah ninth Imam Muhammad at-Taqi:
At-Taqi said, "I do not deny the virtue of Umar." Al-Ihtijaj 'ala Ahl al-Lajaj p.250
Neither Ali nor his descendants considered themselves anything but muslims and certainly not propagators of any sect or separate religious creed. It is the Shi’ahs who consider them as their own religious leaders, attributing to them many inconceivable narrations to support their doctrines.
As I was aware of the personality of most of the Imams Shi’ahs consider their leaders I asked for the refrences Al-Baqir used to make such a big claim. Clearly none of that stuff has been said by any of these Imams. The imams recognized the righteousness and piety of the first three caliphs. They were fully aware of the responsibility of spreading deen without any addition or subtraction. That brings one to question the validity of these quotations written under the name of some of the most pious followers of Islam. Since Shi’ahs can not deny the authencity of their own source books, their revert to their doctrine of taqiyyah and claim that all their imams also practiced Taqiyyah. Taqiyyah provides the greatest shild for the inconsistencies in the beliefs of Fiqah e Jafariya. It is for this reason that they have said that nine tenths of their religion is Taqiyyah.
Reply:
Salman, it's not good to use the word unanimous in disagreeing with an issue specially when it's something Allah SWT has clearly stated in Quran.
I am not repeating questions. I am not even asking a question. Clearly only stating. If you want to use an ayah, use the whole. Not bits and pieces. And beware do not mock the deen of Allah SWT.*****
As-Salamun-Alaikum
I just have one question. When the majority of ahl-al-sunnah scholars have accepted that the Ahlul bayt includes the five Muhammad(SAWS) ,Ali(AS), Fatima(AS),Hasan(AS), Husayn(AS) and not the wives then why do people keep constantly arguing that the ahlul bayt included the wives of the prophet?
I mean what else do you want me to do? personally come down and show you what sahih muslim says
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
No offence but the average sunni person must make it upto himself to research his/her beliefs before arguing here. Otherwise your just wasting precious time.
I am sorry if I just sounded a bit harsh but the truth is the 4 sunni schools do belive that the ahlul bayt includes only the 5 ppl
Wa-Salamun-alaikum-Wa-Rahmatulllahi-Wa-Barakatu
As-Salamun-alaikum
Sis rare diamonds it just shows how ignorant you are.
Are you even aware of the arabic ayah(33:33)
Your saying that I am making a mockery of the ayah (astaghfirulah)Have you even heard of such a thing as gender change
Are you willing to deny authentic sunni ahadith related by none other than ummul momineen Hazrat Aisha(accepted by sunni scholars, even today)
How you can you call yourself a sunni?when you don't even believe in authentic sunni ahadith from sahih muslim. Sister open up your mind?
Why don't you ask your local imam if you are so confident that the Ahlul bayt includes the wives of the Prophet(SAWS)? I mean can you be more knowledgeable then your own scholars?
'Try to be a seeker of knowledge Not a defender of beliefs'
Wa-Salamun-Alaikum-Wa-Rahmatullahi-Wa-Barakatu
Peace and blessings be on Muhammad(SAWS)and his Ahlul bayt(AS)