Ali a.s or mavia

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

I agree ....esp. since in recent yrs with advent of internet a lot of amateurish websites been established to further the sectarian agenda of each side

Now its not that they are totally false or fabricated ....by and large they do have a lot of important facts and references from authentic texts but they rely on selective interpretation of history which suits their official versions propogated by their sects, they are masters at putting a spin on certain wellestablished historical facts ....so in this sense they dont have the intelluctual honesty to admit that a certain belief they might have lacks credible historical references ....its all about "not accepting defeat" not about historical accuracy

But it would also be an exaggeration tp say that ALL history cannot be relied on as its impossible to tell fact from fiction ....as thats exactly the same argument that the hadith rejectors use ....
My personal belief is in a islamic history that is sufficently well established in the important works of many scholars of the classical islamic period. Now many amateur internet mujahids today attack the works of these scholars many of whom were muhaddith in their own time] citing their own ridiculus reasons why they were wrong in accepting a "weak narrater or narration" as if they know more than them . One can only pity such people .....

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Brother *Das Reich *– Yes it the job of the scholars to sort out facts from the skewed up historical facts. Many history scholars have done a lot work to sort out the ‘fairy-tale’ narrations from the facts.

But if you attend public talks of speakers who rely solely on ‘History’ to mesmerize their captive audience to enhance their sectarian stand you will find that they quote ‘facts’ from ‘history’ books so slanted with sectarian bias that narrations seem to be right out the ‘Arabian Nights 1001 nights’ and the facts are so spiced up and stated as fact that it seems as if the narrator was there in person some 1500 years ago as a silent witness.

Brother, you will agree with me without any reservations that Prophet (saw) did not leave this world until he had completed his mission the message of Islam.

Nothing that occurred in the historical incidents will add or take away from Islam even an iota of from Islamic Belief and ahkam [halal and haram] as Islam was completed on the revelation to the following verse.

"Al yawma akmaltu lakum dinakam wa atmamtu alaikam ni'mati wa raditu' lakumul islama dinan''," which means "Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favour to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion." (5:3)

I am sure you will agree that time of Siffin was time of turmoil and the matter was not that clear cut as it seems to us.

Read the following

When people decided to Swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:

“Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.” Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91

Note that Hz. Ali (ra) said:

“We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours”
“which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept”
“Clouds are hovering over the sky”
“and faces are not discernible”

The above clearly shows that there was confusion in Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp. He is not sure who the conspirators were. (May be I am reading it wrong)

Hz. Ali (ra) camp was compromised of:
1)Hz. Ali (ra)’s sincere followers
2)Agitators who had murdered the Khalifah
3)Kharajites – who broke off and were the ones who murdered Hz. Ali (ra).
4)Abdullah bin Saba and his followers who were there to sow dissension within Islam.
5) Opportunists for their personal welfare and abandoned him as no 'benefits' were coming their way

Brother is it not true that Hz. Ali (ra)’s own brother (Hz. Aqeel bin Abi Talib (ra)) abandoned him and joined Hz. Mu’awiyah (ra)’s camp?

And that Hz. Mu’awiyah (ra)’s very close relative (probably brother) was in Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp?

I hope that you can confirm the above.

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

yes nobody can add anything to islam after Prophet [pbuh] but many people abandoned his sunnah and others introduced innovations

many "speakers" like u said target a bias and ignorant audience , where the empty rhetoric and black and white presentation of historical events are essential in securing a fan base

[quote]

I am sure you will agree that time of Siffin was time of turmoil and the matter was not that clear cut as it seems to us.

[/quote]

agreed ...infact historical sources themselves differ in some details about this event
but so is the case with almost every other event in islamic history many of which we take for granted]thats the inherent problem with all oral traditions ...as no history was written down until a 100 year after the event

[quote]

Hz. Ali (ra) camp was compromised of:
1)Hz. Ali (ra)’s sincere followers
2)Agitators who had murdered the Khalifah
3)Kharajites – who broke off and were the ones who murdered Hz. Ali (ra).
4)Abdullah bin Saba and his followers who were there to sow dissension within Islam.
5) Opportunists for their personal welfare and abandoned him as no 'benefits' were coming their way

[/quote]

here is another example of difference in opinion about history
I think only number 1,3 and 5 existed in Ali's camp
for 2 I wud say yes many of the agitators [or revolutionaries] were in his camp , but we have very different views of these men so its pointless to elaborate on this point

[quote]

Brother is it not true that Hz. Ali (ra)’s own brother (Hz. Aqeel bin Abi Talib (ra)) abandoned him and joined Hz. Mu’awiyah (ra)’s camp?

[/quote]

absolutely ..... he stayed all the time in syria
but if you wud know why he defected to syria you will probably see the nature of the conflict

[quote]

And that Hz. Mu’awiyah (ra)’s very close relative (probably brother) was in Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp?

[/quote]

he was muhammad b abi hudhayfa[ra] son of abu hudhayfa [ra] who a very early ummayyad companion brother of Hind] who was martyred in the apostasy wars ,muhammad his son was brought up by uthman b affan.But later he joined the agitation against him

if we could all be comfortable with our own beliefs in islamic history and not try to "convince" or "refute" others who hold different beliefs 90% of the sectarian conflict will be a nonissue ......

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Can u put a source for this ! i mean its very contrversial !

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

^ I read it in Nasr b muzahim 's waqat siffin a translated portion courtesy a iraqi friend] ...which is not a 12er shia book but definately a pro-Alid source although widely quoted in sunni sources as well]

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

*If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). *49:9

Brother *Das Reich *– Neutrality is a valid option – To make peace between two quarreling parties of the Believers one has to have the ability and at least moral authority.

You can clearly see from Hz. Ali (ra) sermon that matters were very chaotic and confused. Nobody seemed to in complete control. The agitators had made Madinah unsafe for it’s citizens.

The situation and events were so fluid and crises were followed by more crisis. To make peace between two quarreling parties in such chaotic times there was no neutral personality under whom such ‘working group’ could be set up to organise peace talks.

And then such ‘working group’ has to have strength and ability to fight against the one who transgressed.

The role played by Ibn Saba is a fact and should not be denied or down played

Build your dream spouse here
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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

^ to make peace is definately the first choice....there were eminent sahaba like abdullah b umar[ra], sa'd b abi waqqas [ra] , muhammad b musalima[ra] who were sincerely neutral i think they shud have played a more proactive role at that time .....but after one party has transgressed than muslims shud side with the offended party and against the aggressor then neutrality is very hard to defend from the above ayat and thats what i meant]
some sahaba/tabaeen who were neutral intially later committed themselves to one side or other

re: ibn saba the only thing thats for sure is that a person by that name existed and was minor tribal leader of some significance ....the claim that he turned the sahaba , sons of eminent sahaba and warriors of kufa who were essentially loyal to the establishment] against the caliph is hardly plausible esp. since the kind of doctrine that he allegedly preached cannot be attributed to any other follower of Ali[as] 's camp at that time ....this makes it hard for me to believe that a person who does not have a wide appeal would significantly influence decisions on a major scale.
Remember that in those days loyalties were essentially tribal and no tribe wud commit itself fully to one side with the approval of its leaders.
Having said that it is also a fact that many extremist sects of shias have existed and originated in the time AFTER the revolt of amir mukhtar.And the "divinity" concept that ibn saba is said to have preached fits them more appropriatly.Amir mukhtar is also the first one who was accused by his contemporaries of being a heretic and a false prophet ...we dont see the opponents of Ali [as] making such accusations against him or his supporters.So its safe to conclude that these later extremist sects had little in common with the shias of the first generation who were involved in the first & second civil war] but these extremist sects did eventually formed the basis of what we now know as the present 12er sect of shias.
at any rate thats just my conclusion based on what little reading i have done on this and other related topics

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

I dunno how do people come with such selfmade histories that wont even sound close to reality ... i mean if u really wana make a history of ur own, how abt making it sound little real !
If shia extremest were there ... they shld have made Imam Ali impose the war but what see is that wars were started by maviyah having a exuse that murderer of usman was in with Imam Ali a.s
worst of all u dun even opnely tell anyone ur believes ? and when u say first two civil wars, u r reffering to ?

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

I luv to be with Hazrat Ali A.S -> Wali Allah .. ( Friend of Allah )

Born in Kaba

Open eyes in hand of Rasool Allah ( habeeb Allah )

Got Tounge of Rasool Allah in his mouth when he was just 3 day old. " Jo Luab-e-Rasool chakh chuka ho woh bhi jab woh 3 din ka ho to woh haq nahi karega to kya karega "

Allah send Zulfikar only for Ali

Jiski maa ne uska naam Haider rakha

Hazrat Ibrahim A.S ke khandan se

Rasool Allah ke chachazad bhai or Damaad

" Man qunto maula wa haza aliyun maula " said by Rasool Allah on Eid-e-Ghadeer.

If u like to pray , pray like Ali ( so concentration in his prayer that an arrow taken out from his leg and he have no idea )

Father of Imam Hasan & Imam Hussain ( Sher-e-Karbala )
( Shah ast hussain badshah ast hussain , Deen ast hussain deen-e-panah ast hussain )

Sifat pe sifat pe sifat pe sifat .. is had tak sifat ki Wali Allah ban gaya

A poet write a sher on Hazarat Meesam-e-Tammar

Phir Nageeno se tul rahi hai zabaan
Aab-e-kausar se dhul rahi hai zabaan !
Ba adab ba mulah-e-za Hoshiyar
madhe haider me khul rahi hai zabaan !!

The Greatest scholar of the time ( Good remains good from the first to end )

Anyone have any sifat of Mavia ?
One sifat i know he was father of Yazeed Mardud

*" Allah ki zalimon per lanat "*

I luv my sunni brothers and all muslims ( Muslim = Surrender to only one Allah ) and i have no obection with other religions too including hindus bcoz in quran allah himself told ( Momin woh hai jo subki sunta hai lekin amal haq per hi karta hai ) so Love u All and Luv to Serve u all .. but Hates Zulm and Zaalim

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

I practice Taqqiyah ....\

thats exactly what i am saying that extremist or ghulat shias DID NOT exist in the time of Imam Ali or atleast were not amongst his followers

they appeared later when in the 2nd century hijrah shiaism emerged as a distinct sect ...which it wasnt before

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Come to think of it - If you were to follow a textbook religion - there wouldnt be something called History at all

Its pretty easy to say - Hey Quran says all - period - I dont want to know who how and when it was explained, or if someone tried to twist it sideways.

If we didnt have any history - we would not have linked the books of God at all.

Speaking of supporting Ali - I mean why not, he was the one who was with the prophet at all times, his progeny was butchered in the name of what you call your faith - His wisdom is unmatched till now - and he was praised by Muhammad the prophet - and nothing refers to him badly anywhere in history

If you remove Ali and his family from the history of Islam - what virtues do we have left in it?

keeping a believers view I would give my vote to Ali - because we do not have the capacity to challenge it - by any stretch of the imagination.

;) Choose A Profession 4 Above Person ;)
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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

okay good know that shia's existed later from the history u gathered.... but lets per say dont worry abt shia extremist ... just worry abt shia's when did this sect start ?

I dun think there is a better way to say this, niceeee Mashallah

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Between Ali and Muawiya, definetly Ali for me. No ifs, no buts.
Anytime, anywhere.

Sing a Song according 2 Ur Mood !!!!!
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sad to know that u think Islam is limited to just one family....

Desis and pregnant women
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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

i dont totally undersatnd what u r asking ...but if u want to read about origin of ithna ashari shiaism as its known today a good place to start wud be Heinz Halm's shia islam

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

ditto ...what is sadder is that this kind of irrational partisan approach expressed here which u are criticsing is not reflective of Ali or his sons and supporters
plz refer to prayer #4 of sahiffa-e-sajadiyah

re: supporting Ali is concerned it has nothing to do with muawiyah personally, if anyone else had fought him it wud have been the same ...as we know from a variety of ahadith narrated by numerous sources that Haqq was with Ali and his supporters...those who hated him were munafiqs

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Okay let me try putting that in different words ... According the history that u have read ... how long after the karbala or bfr karbala did this sect Shiaism start ?

nice ... but again if muslims today understood this ... islam wud be much less complicated :)

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

^ understanding shud come from both sides , not just one
btw what i said is NOT a distinctly 12er shia view at all

as far as ur first question it cannot be answered in one line , i recommend u get that book ....its a good start

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Re: Ali a.s or mavia

Islam is not complicated at all, unless you want to settle the scores that cannot be settled.

Otherwise Islam is very simple.

Wt Ix Ur Mood Today