Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
As I stated in post 28 regulating liquor sales would still be easier than the current mess with enforcing prohibition. It won’t be perfect. And sure there will still be deaths like in india.
But citizens will have their freedom back. And there will be less head banging among the population - though it might increase here among certain head bangers.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
I thought you had some idea of economics. Sadly I was wrong.
Can you imagine the amount of resources needed to just implement DUI regulations country-wide? Regulation is not just issuing licenses to shops. It would involve regulations and implementation of under-age use and DIU laws AND implementation as a start. Shutting down illegal moonshine operations would be much easier.
Until we learn to safely fly kites, I wont be for risking alcohol freely available at truck pit-stops. 
Prohibition is vastly cheaper and easier to implement. I am for prohibiting tobacco (leading cause of cancer in Karachi) as well.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
And I thought you had some common sense. Sadly I was wrong. To state that this process will be more complex than enforcing no muslim gets to drink under current prohibition shows a lack of common sense.
The fact that under the current prohibition law lots of muslims get alcohol indicates prohibition is not working.
Only a fool does things or advocates policies that dont work. And I thought you weren’t a fool.
so let us stop with the insults. And just present our arguments shall we?
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Moving on - here are some positives of legalizing alcohol.
Currently the government does not get any revenue from alcohol sales. You legalize it. Then you tax it. Using tax revenues, you regulate it.
When ministers consume alcohol, what else are you waiting for before legalizing alcohol consumption?
Everything is complex and difficult. Whether enforcing prohibition or legalize g alcohol and regulating it. For the latter, the govt gets to raise much needed revenue.
What am I missing?
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Peace diwana
Well you misunderstood me then … In all the cases above. I am not against family planning so long as there is a certain mindset about it and certain restrictions about it. I never say people should appease racists … But if it is possible to deflate a situation that is better than complaining about it, which in the minds of racists will only strengthen their resolve and also make the victims more racist, there is a context to that too and racism should be confronted at society or institutional levels … In my post above I did say ‘in an ideal society’ which Pakistan is not … So the context is that good societies need not have strong laws … But immoral and irreligious societies need stronger laws to retain the religious flavour … So my point was addressing the reason why Pakistan needs the law … But also it is a complaint that had we been good enough we wouldn’t need it.
And regarding who is Muslim … I said again with an implied context that the most basic qualifier for being a Muslim is the Kalimah … Thereafter there is more and more focused criteria that also must be fulfilled.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Is there a significance to the appearance of the word irreligious right after immoral? As in “immoral and irreirreligious”?
What does irreligious mean?
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
And so can be mine. Since I am bashful, I will not say mine is true. I will leave that up to the reader. 
It is not the religius people who have any confusion over alcohol being haram and prohibited by Allah.
It is the periodic itch irreligious people have… to find some way to show it is not.
This very thread is an excellent example. 
As to the madhabs and maslaks, there is no real or concrete dispute.
Irreligious and secular people make it a big deal so they can somehow show majority of Muslims with different schools of thought differ and are hell bent on killing each other. Absolutely NOT true. It’s all in their heads.
As it is,… the real truth on the ground is that: **
Vast majority of Muslims of all different sects and madhabs live side by side and peacefully and respect each other or try to be quiet about each other’s religious views if they are intermingled.
**
Let’s ignore your word of clowns for the one who possesses religious knowledge but not in your personal view… let’s focus on your latter part of sentence.
You referred to the thread recently posted on a religious person who actually said the truth. Two different threads were started on that topic.
And I posted that in Religious/Philosophy forum that he said the truth and did not get answer. He was right. Islamically, there is no obligation for men to ask permission from his first wife to get married to second one. And that is the truth. Agree or not.
Now: On the surface it looked like the religious scholar only talked about not needing permission of first wife before a man gets married to another woman or age limit to be lower than other countries for marriage.
But:
What was deliberately not talked about that other issues which were also discussed. ( I pointed out that also)
Secular/Anti-religious/Irreligious people have control over mass media and they love to bring anything which would make religion and religious people look bad.
**Media is biased and deliberately portrayed religion and religious people wrong.
**
Filtering the information to get the intended result that is how it is done all over the world. **Gullible people fall for **it.
But you will not see religious people asking for their approval would you?
Yes.
But why look at those so called religious leaders and the ones who are political?**
As an educated class of people should we not focus on what other non-political religious people say about many social and religious issues?**
Lots of religious people who are not political say the same thing about alcohol.
It has to be criminalized for goodness of the society in Pakistan for many reasons.
Some mentioned by Kakaballi.
Disagreed.
it is the non-religious/secular or anti-religious who bring these issues on table periodically or regularly.
If nothing else, they start threads on these topics supporting, but not religiously inclined people bashing these.
When was the last time any religiously inclined person opened a thread on Valentine bashing, Thanks giving bashing, Jean bashing, Music bashing, Christian, Jew, Hindu bashing? Really? Seriously!
What I said that religiously inclined people are very content and fine.
It is the anti-religious people who are hell bent in bashing religion or its dogma or its followers in order to look smart even though I have found irreligious people to be completely lacking any intelligence and reasoning and I know of a lot of them. They bring nothing substantial to support their claims.
Agreed.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
You are missing the point that we are talking about Pakistan where we could not regulate kite flying. Would you believe that the firearms industry and commerce in Pakistan is “regulated”?
I would agree with everything you say if we were talking about a country in Europe or North America.
Regardless of what the ‘intellectuals’ say on their online blogs, alcohol consumption in Pakistan is still negligible compared to other places and It is a GOOD thing. Lets keep it that way.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Not quoting you, but you liked and agreed with Bella on the issue of contraception and did not participate in a thread I opened questioning the view which you brought up.
As for racism: You did show that if a person sees you intermingling with another race of choice, the person will start liking you, regardless you yourself treated the person nicely. I said the girl in your example was still a racist. And one does not have to change the ways for ANYONE to be liked, since that means eventually the person will have to do more in a society to be liked, like many people do.
Sorry, I have limited time. Will post your statements on other issues as well as above to show why I said what I said.
Peace till then.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
There are two possibilities once alcohol is legalized;
Alcohol consumption increases in the country significantly. We simply do not have the means to deal with the social impact. We have enough violence already in the country, thank you.
(which most commentators here and elsewhere online agree with) Only those who consume alcohol now will continue to consume, those who do not drink now, will not change and we will get tax revenue.
Now: http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/msbgsruprofiles.pdf
Alcohol consumption in Pakistan is negligible [against the ‘online’ perception]. If that consumption would not increase as a result of legalizing and regulating it, then the costs do not justify the (supposed) revenue the government is going to receive (if the corrupt officials leave it alone).
USA tries to regulate underage drinking. 73 of underage people still drink. You think Pakistan can do better?
The online propaganda about how everyone openly drinks and how easily alcohol is available is just that… propaganda. There is a big world beyond the walls of DHA Karachi.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
I agree alcohol consumption per capita is less than other places. I also agree alcohol is overrated. And causes more harm than good.
Alcohol consumption has doubled since prohibition started ( I don’t know if this is per capita or absolute numbers).
So let us say alcohol consumption before prohibition was same level per capita as it is today. So prohibition did NOT decrease Consumption. In one of my earlier posts i hypothesize the low consumption per capita could be cause muslims do not drink. And the vast majority being practicing muslims do not drink. With or without prohibition.
So even if regulation is weak, drinking won’t increase. As evidenced by same consumption before prohibition.
One advantage - additional tax revenues.
Again, alcohol is way overrated. Those who don’t drink - more power to them. But sacrificing freedom of choice - that is a huge price a society pays. Whether it be india or Pakistan I would say the same thing.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Re 73 pct of underage in us drinking, stats can mean several things. Yes it is possible that 73 pct may have had a drink when uunderage. The telling figure is what pct do this on regular basis. As opposed to one off basis.
Also it goes to show that even if certain parts of regulations don’t work, society is still well served. Stiff penalties for dui can be impelemented. Got to start somewhere.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Compared to USA, there are negligible drunk-driving related deaths in Pakistan. We got a head-start. Lets keep it that way.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Which means it would bring in negligible tax revenue. Why bother?
Extremely limited revenue (if consumption levels stay the way they are) and the costs would be exorbitant.
Citizens ‘earn’ freedom. If we could not fly kites with basic respect for human life, we did not deserve the freedom to fly kites.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Precisely.
The alcohol consumption before and after remained the same - low per capita compared to others.
The dui remains the same before and after (a reasonable assumption based on above)
The head start you refer to was there before prohibition. So why bother with prohibition. Why not treat citizens as adults. As opposed to letting the elite get away with violating the law.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
It is not LESS. It is negligible. Consumption in India is 50 TIMES more than in Pakistan. Even if the numbers are suppressed, and consumption in Pakistan is actually double than what the reports say, it is still 4% of consumption per capita in India. Still miniscule to generate any kind of tax revenue.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
There are so many imperfections in every society. That doesn’t mean we don’t start somewhere. It certainly doesn’t mean we lay down and give up our right to choose how we conduct ourselves. We don’t want big brother to tell us when to take a pee. Why would we want big brother to dictate to us what we can or cannot drink?
Especially when it has been demonstrated prohibition has done zilch to lower the already low alcohol consumption.
To ur point, if consumption will be low (Hence less revenue), need for regulations will also be low!
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Ok. That makes my case sttonger.
Negligible consumption.
No decrease since prohibition started.
Ergo a non existent problem.
Prohibition is like a hammer looking for a nail. Or whatever that saying is.
Lift it. The consumption, based on historical data, will remain negligible.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Sorry, wrong conclusion. If the consumption would remain negligible, why bother with any change? Lets keep the things the way they have been working. Why fix something that is not broken?
Based on historical data of alcohol consumption in India’s “wet states” v/s Pakistan in recent history, prohibition has worked.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
This is not my point. This is the point of internet alcohol jihadis who claim that consumption won’t change. If that is true, then tax revenue generated would be negligible. Why bother with regulation then?
If you ask me, consumption would definitely increase following decriminalization and we’d face social and health care issues that we do not right now.
The ONLY PROBLEM is that the elite feel ‘inconvenienced’ sourcing their alcohol and cry about it. Most of the regular folks are fine with the way things are.