Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Give Pakistan the ability to enforce such regulations, and then happily make everything legal.
If Pakistan was generally a law abiding society where regulations are by and large respected, then I’ll have no problems with what you say.
If the rich and ‘intelligentsia’ can get all the alcohol they want and none of them have been prosecuted for consumption or possession, then why make so much noise about it?
So, after the prohibition is removed, then suddenly poor would be able to afford quality alcohol? Do poor Indians don’t die often consuming bootlegged alcohol in states where there is no alcohol ban?
Efforts to shut down such bootlegging operations would be only a small portion of what would be required to regulate the whole industry. Why not actively try and shut down moonshine operations? And get rid of cigarettes while you are at it. My problem is simple: I do not want my children having easy access to alcohol on street corner shops. Easy access is one the major reasons for widespread smoking problem in teenagers in Pakistan.
Yes, alcohol consumption in Pakistan has doubled but it has much more than doubled in countries where there is no prohibition. What can be inferred from this?
Yes. Bootlegging is killing lots of people in India also.
You wanted evidence that alcohol consumption has not DECLINED Since prohibition. Hence my attempt to find it. Only thing I came up with was paracha article. But looks like u have the evidence that it has NOT declined. So not sure I get ur point.
This does not mean prohibited is CAUSING increase in consumption. But it simpky does not work! That is in response to ur query what conclusion can be drawn.
While I couldn’t find evidence poor r targeted by police more I offered up the bootlegging to say poor have no other options.
To ur point even after legalization poor may use bootlegged liquor - I would submit they would have some choice. They would have access to legal liquor. Which won’t be as marked up as it is now.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
I think everyone spends way too much time on these specific issues religious, nonreligious or secular. It may be a reaction since that seems to be the focus of the religious parties, … There are other things that religion prohibits, frowns upon as well as requests and recommends but that’s not on the radar. Cleanliness for one…environment… Respect for minorities…social service…waste of resources…education..
The secular elements may be seen pushing in a few issues because they are the few issues the religious spend a disproportionate amount of time.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Did you compare the absolute numbers with other countries? The consumption is tiny and shouldn’t it remain this way? At least it is not at all as widespread as claimed by the ‘intellectuals’ in online blogs. Per capita average alcohol consumption in India is 7 times more and in UK is 70 times more than in Pakistan. I’d say prohibition is working, no?
What if people have almost NO access to alcohol [which is more or less the situation now]? Why add another choice to the variety of addictions available? I am just saying that we have a very poor record at regulating such stuff and I wouldn’t want to see children drinking on street corners as they can be found smoking away freely now.
We couldn’t regulate traffic in 1970’s… people refused to drive in lanes even then
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
No i did not look at absolute numbers. I think per capita is more relevant. Looks like per capita consumption in pakistan has either remained unchanged or increased during prohibition. So how does this show prohibition worked?
The low per capita consumption in Pak may be cause muslims wouldn’t drink alcohol due to religion. Those folks wouldn’t drink even if prohibition were to be lifted. One should compare per capita consumption of indian muslims with pakistan muslims to get fair conclusion.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
The argument that regulating alcohol is more difficult than prohibiting it is a non starter here is why.
In prohibition a non muslim can consume alcohol. Karachi restaurants serve alcohol. No one checks the non muslim id. It’s a mess.
Regulation requires shops that sell alcohol are properly licensed. Much easier to implement. Would there be 100 pct success. No. Would it be easier to implement than the prohibition. That’s a no brainer.
Now that u agree with me, you should check out the new Quants poster chapter 2 in business forum. Specializes in linear equations
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Absolutely!
There are far better issues to be discussed like you mentioned.
The red part in your post and this sentence however can be disputed.
Religious people have it very clear, what is right and what is wrong they draw their conclusion from scriptures as well as obvious ills of the society which follows if liquor, gambling and prostitution is somehow decriminalized or even deregulated.
**As is obvious from simple observation on this very discussion board, **it is not the religious people who try to bring any question on these issues but irreligious people time and time after do.
Hence they get the answer and time is wasted on these frivolous issues.
Yes. Unfortunately, in the end it is.
What is the need of time is to discuss the issues more often which can impact the Pakistan society positively.
Yes, cleanliness, education, security, provision of basic necessities like food and clean water and respect of each others with difference of views, keeping in mind not keep bringing these kind of issues again and again which are already established.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
Your biggest problem is that you worry too much about Pakistan like few other guppies and moderators who completely ignore the problems in India or stay quiet deliberately since they are biased India lover moderators on this site who periodically show their love for India one way or other without even using one brain cell. :smack:
Please write something to make India adapt stricter laws against alcohol.
Since Indian citizens who consumed alcohol have shown irresponsibility and crimes against humanity including killing people of different religion.
Short of doing that, you are the one who want Indian citizens getting killed for something as absurd as being drunk.
You should be worried about India where drunk people one way or other started religious based riot.
"The most recent riots erupted late last month in Trilokpuri, a largely poor neighborhood on the eastern edge of New Delhi. The fighting started on the evening of Diwali — the Hindu festival of lights — after a drunken brawl broke out near a makeshift Hindu shrine set up across from a mosque.
For hours, large groups of men fought pitched street battles, hurling rocks and stones at each other and injuring dozens of people. A Muslim-owned shop was set on fire, Hindus pelted the mosque with stones, and dozens of angry Muslim men attacked Hindu homes.
Beyond that, the stories vary depending on which religious group you ask. Local Hindus say some drunk Muslim men smashed liquor bottles near the shrine. Muslims say the brawl was between Hindus and Muslims who had been drinking together, and that such fights are common in the neighborhood and usually settled quickly by police."
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
The need for putting a crime tag on alcohol consumption and the discussion about whether it should be decriminalised are both symptoms of a society that is leaving its religion - the people of such a society are prudent due to consequences they may get from the penal system rather than any fear of how their souls will suffer and how they will lift their face before their Lord.
This is a very sad state … The ideal situation is that the law for the prohibition of the consumption of alcohol need not be in place because the citizens would not even consider it something that they want to do … But …How many times today have Muslims been on a plane, in duty free, or in any other legal alcohol selling setting and chosen to drink alcohol? This is where the problem lies …
The laws should be in place to control alcohol sales - but for those who wish to consume it … they will … despite any level of criminalisation … you can take the charsee out of the chars (environment), but you can’t take the chars out of the (heart) of the charsee … until he changes his own heart.
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
You never fail to amaze me.
Sometimes you support wrong assumption that somehow family planning or contraception is un-Islamic, other time you support and show people should appease and pacify racism and now you are showing your support for alcohol drinking and leaving it up to individual discretion and responsibility.
Aren’t you the one who limited the meaning of who is Muslim basically to believing what Kalimah says in Religious and Philosophy forum?
2- religious people don’t have it very clear what is right or what is wrong otherwise they would not be wrangling over madhabs, maslaks etc.
The clowns in that one religious body passing out idiotic statements about additional marriages and what note indicates that it’s not just the non religious ppl fixated with alcohol… Have not really seen much of a movement for gambling or prostitution, although shahi mohallay exists, it’s there and no one touches it so, that’s saying a lot on what is tolerated…
The religious leaders … And by that I mean the political ones and that council … If they simply focused and were more vocal about relevant topics then this vicious circle would not exist.
It’s like for many it’s a desi version of miami vice… Maulvi Vice. It’s focused too much on music, Valentine’s Day, coeducation, jeans … Instead of inequality, corruption, nepotism, cheating and bribes, fraud and deceit, and even oppression, xenophobia, racism and hate…
Would love to see more on these topics but either there is an issue with capacity, or competency or capability. Other c words come to mind but three are enough
Re: Alcohol consumption in Pakistan: Don’t mix sin with crime
These are true for the societies where law is respected. People still die because of home-brewed alcohol in Indian states where consumption of alcohol is legal.
We can’t regulate even the most dangerous things as guns or the most trivial thins as kite flying… forget about tobacco or alcohol.
Edit: We tried regulating Kite Flying in Lahore but failed. Banned it and Kite-related deaths have gone down SIGNIFICANTLY from hundreds every year to almost zero.
it is indeed all about covering the niche in market 