^
u dont even want to see what mirza ghuam ahmed wrote for those who spoke out against him....
surely the GS censor board wud delete it if i posted it here....
My friend Hash00 (bless you),
The first tenet of Islam is ‘La-Ilaha-Il-Allah-Mohammed-Ur-Rasool-Allah’, it is the Shahada, the testimony…
This tenet rests upon an unshakeable, undisputed and unchallengeable belief that the Holy Prophet Mohammed :saw: is the last and final Messenger of Allah :swt: and to not acknowledge this belief is outright Kufr as any Muslims will tell you…
Then you have Mirza Sahib who claims to be a prophet and yet he has people who believe him and yet consider themselves Muslims, and to me that’s pretty ignorant…
I, as a Muslim, have no problems with Ahmadism or Qadiyaniyat, provided they come up with their own faith and their own name, and not confuse others into thinking that they are Muslims, as everyone knows that belief in the finality of Prophethood is a core Islamic belief…
And to top it all off, Mirza Sahib’s own son declared his father a non-Muslim and reverted back to Islam, so if the very own flesh and blood of your prophet can see through his father’s claims and denounce them as being lies, I wonder why can’t other intelligent people like yourself? Mirza Sahib’s son reverting back to Islam should have been an eye opener for all Ahmadis, but sadly, none of you take heed, may Allah :swt: guide you…
If you wish to have a prophet of your own, fine, so be it, just as long as you don’t associate yourself with Islam…You wish to be recognized as the followers of a religious creed with an identity, fine, as long as you don’t call yourselves Muslims…
As long as you call yourselves Muslims and following Islam you will always have antagonists from Islam, and don’t think ‘oh, having antagonists is no big deal as every people who carried the truth had antagonists’, no…You don’t carry the truth, you carry untruth and fabrications that go against the very basic teachings of Islam…
Why not name your faith Ahmediyat or Qadiyaniyat and yourselves as Ahmadis? You can do whatever you like then, as long as you claiming false premisses under the banner of Islam, you will always have Muslims who will want to throw you out, me included…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mehr00: *
Mr Bao Bihari i read your comments regarding you saying that. Ahmadis are always shy to talk bout the character of Mirza Sahib (AS).
Should i also say this Other main stream muslims are Shy to talk about the Character of HOly Prophet (saw) NAOZOBILLAH when Christain attack on him.
Same way you will reply the alligation we will too but the diffrence is we dont use any filth language when replying.
[/QUOTE]
fateh ahmed ..is that you buddy?
Mirza Remembers his another opponent, Hazrath Mehr Ali Shah, in following words: “Lair, Khabees (wicked). Sting like a scorpion. O Land of Golra! Curse of God be upon you. You have become accursed because of the cursed one.” (Roohani Khazain vol.18)
“Enemies (meaning Muslims) have become swines of our jungle and their women have become worse than bitches.” (Roohani Khazain vol.14 p.53)
For his opponent Maulvi Saadullah Ludhianvi, Mirza writes: “Demon. Secondrel Profilgate. Devil. Accursed seed of evil person. Wicked Mischievous. III-omened Son of a Bitch.” (Roohani Khazain vol.14 p.53)
Assalamo Alaikum,
Lajawab sahib, firstly, I would like to ask, what is the arabic for "last prophet" in the kalima, for I have never seen it. It only says "muhammadur rasulallah" meaning Mohammad (saw) is the messanger of allah. There is no word for the last.
I believe that we are Muslims. We accept Allah and we accept the Holy Prophet (saw) as the greatest prophet who brought a law of Islam that cannot be superceeded.
Armughal saheb, thanks for your points,
Firstly, could you provide the page number and the book name for the first quote as there are 5 books in that volume. And then could you provide the book name for the two other quotes, as there are 5 books in volume 14 too.
Waslam,
Hasee binth TAAR
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hash00: *
Assalamo Alaikum,
Lajawab sahib, firstly, I would like to ask, what is the arabic for "last prophet" in the kalima, for I have never seen it. It only says "muhammadur rasulallah" meaning Mohammad (saw) is the messanger of allah. There is no word for the last.
[/QUOTE]
Walaikum,
Surely as a Muslim you believe in the Quran, my friend:
Here's what the Quran says about the finality of the Prophethood coming to an end with the appearance of our beloved Prophet of Allah, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him:
**
33:40
Yusuf Ali:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things.
Shakir:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
Pickthall:
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. **
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Walaikum,
Surely as a Muslim you believe in the Quran, my friend:
Here's what the Quran says about the finality of the Prophethood coming to an end with the appearance of our beloved Prophet of Allah, may peace and blessings of the universe be upon him:
**
33:40
Yusuf Ali:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things.
Shakir:
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
Pickthall:
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. **
[/QUOTE]
AFter reading your reply i would say only SHAKIR translated as last prophet but the other two translated as Seal of Prophet. When you accept that If the word mean Seal of Prophet then the Argument of being last is gone.
We can further discuss on Seal of prophet what does it mean and how its used in Arabic transcript.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mehr00: *
AFter reading your reply i would say only SHAKIR translated as last prophet but the other two translated as Seal of Prophet. When you accept that If the word mean Seal of Prophet then the Argument of being last is gone.
We can further discuss on Seal of prophet what does it mean and how its used in Arabic transcript.
[/QUOTE]
Mehr00, can you put a letter inside a sealed envelope? Can you enter a sealed room? Why is that putty which you put around plumbing called sealant, because nothing is supposed to enter it or come out.
What is so difficult to understand about the term 'seal'...
Walaikamus salam Lajawaab,
Indeed I do believe in the Qu'ran. However, you have presented me three translations of the same verse with two different meanings. Above, the term Khatam has already been spoken about, with reference to other usages of khatam, opinions be some of the greatest scholars in Islam, for example, Abu Tammam (AH 804-845) was called khatamu-shourana, so does this mean that he was last prophet?
Rather, other than this verse above, Khatam is encountered 4 times in the qu'ran.
**Khatama Allahu AAala quloobihim waAAala samAAihim waAAala absarihim ghishawatun walahum AAathabun AAatheemun
2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). **
In this, why isn't khatam translated as the last? the last heart? Rather, it means that they have been closed to revelation. But this does not mean that their 4 valves have been sealed and blood cannot flow through them. It means that nothing can make a difference to them. In our world, Rasulallah (saw) has become the seal of the Prophets, meaning that no law can supercede his, there can be no new law and according to the heart example, it doesn't mean new prophets cannot come. This is the same logic of the scholars I quoted above.
**Qul araaytum in akhatha Allahu samAAakum waabsarakum wakhatama AAala quloobikum man ilahun ghayru Allahi yateekum bihi onthur kayfa nusarrifu alayati thumma hum yasdifoona
6:46 Say: "Think ye, if Allah took away your hearing and your sight, and sealed up your hearts, who - a god other than Allah - could restore them to you?" See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); yet they turn aside. ** Again, is their's the last heart? Here, it clearly means that nothing can be added to the understanding of a man. In the same way, nothing can be added to the laws of the Holy Prophet.
**Afaraayta mani ittakhatha ilahahu hawahu waadallahu Allahu AAala AAilmin wakhatama AAala samAAihi waqalbihi wajaAAala AAala basarihi ghishawatan faman yahdeehi min baAAdi Allahi afala tathakkaroona
45:23 Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?
Khitamuhu miskun wafee thalika falyatanafasi almutanafisoona
83:26 The seal thereof will be Musk: And for this let those aspire, who have aspirations: **
Can this possibly translated as the last musk? edit: this musk shows the meaning as a stamp, if the fragrance of Islam is complete, it cannot be added to, but it doesn't mean others can't wear it.
Wasalam!
Hasee
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Mehr00, can you put a letter inside a sealed envelope? Can you enter a sealed room? Why is that putty which you put around plumbing called sealant, because nothing is supposed to enter it or come out.
What is so difficult to understand about the term 'seal'...
[/QUOTE]
My friend i thought you knew more arabic then me. But seal here mean MOHAR not sealing an envlope. And what Mohar does it testifies. And it can be used more then one time to testify as many papers you want.
Here is ment as Mohr`e Nabowwet that Nabowwet will be testified only by Holy Prophet (saw).
That is a short translation of the word Seal. I would reffer you to Hash00 post on more details.
Hash00 ur last post shows u have no knowledge of the arabic language at all....
equating "khatama" to "khaatam" (sorry cant put arabic words here) and to "khitaam" is just like saying "sea" shud mean "see" since they sound so much like each other....
or like comparing "piece" with "peace"....
Hash00, why do you have to take the literal meaning of every word which is written? Don't you take the context in which it has been written into account?
The term seal means to enclose something completely and it also means a water bound mammal. Using your esthetics, which term would you use?
Likewise the term fly means to be airborne and it means an insect, so when I say to you, "Hash00, I saw a man fly over my roof", what would you make out of it?
Similarly there are many words in almost every language with dual meanings, it depends upon the context in which they are placed.
The reason that khatam cannot be used as a 'last heart' or a 'last musk' is because the context is not meant to be used in the same sense...
The word 'khatam' in Urdu has Arabic roots, and hence 'khatam' in Urdu means exactly that...End, finish, complete, desist e.t.c...
When the Ayah says "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen", it means exactly that...Last of the Prophets or end of the Prophets or the seal of the Prophets...All mean the same thing...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mehr00: *
My friend i thought you knew more arabic then me. But seal here mean MOHAR not sealing an envlope. And what Mohar does it testifies. And it can be used more then one time to testify as many papers you want.
Here is ment as Mohr`e Nabowwet that Nabowwet will be testified only by Holy Prophet (saw).
That is a short translation of the word Seal. I would reffer you to Hash00 post on more details.
[/QUOTE]
My Arabic is limited to reading and reciting friend, I can't understand it...You can look at my above post for clarifications of the context in which words are used...
if anyone does not know arabic, let him go to www.ajeeb.com which is the most famous site for english-arabic translation…
find the meaning of the word “ring” and u get “khaatam”…
so was Muhammad (saw) a ring (angoothi) of the prophets??? 
and what do u mean Muhammad (saw) will testify prophethood???
other prophets did not testify???
and see this for translation of “khatam alnabiyoon”…
also form ajeeb.com…
[thumb=E]ajeebtransl5718_6532630.JPG[/thumb]
Mr Lajwaab and my other freind.
Lajwaab you refute your own argument on the last paragraph. Either you take it as Seal of Prophet or Last prophet.
Keep in mind the word isnt the word urdu KHATEM. Ke muk giya. in punjabi.
This arabic Khatam un Nabiyyen. It is connected to a plural term you have to look at that as well.
Anywhere in Arabic grammer you will never translate it as Last. Many refrencess can be given on this. Even from Holy Quran as Hash00 has stated you havent totaly understood the concept of the arabic word and grammer.
We are going in circles. My father is arabic, so is my mother and we originate from KSA. I ask you, what is the difference between Khatam and khatim? In urdu/persian, it is the word "khatem" that means finished, and that is the mistake that has been made. Following the advent of Islam, the Qu'ran spread to all the corners of the world and the speech marks were introduced, where the meaning of khatam and khatim was essentially lost through the difference between a zair and a zabir.
If the context of the other verses of the other verses is not the same, then there is no verse in which it has come to mean last. If there is, bring it forth, for it is instructed upon all Muslims to bring forth proof of what they believe? And bringing www.ajeeb.com is no use, in fact, you should understood the difference between modern and qu'ranic arabic. Qu'ranic arabic can say an entire sentence in a word, which shows the complexity of the language and if answers could be found through search engines then we would have no disputes.
In accepting that Khatam means sealed, you are not only denouncing ahmadis, but all of the scholars I mentioned. You have not shown the khatam means last/finished unlike any context we have done and I'm afraid to say, that bringing up arguments without the backing of scholars higher than I mentioned or not showing the meaning of khatam as last simply means tht this argument will go in circles- something I don't have time for.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hash00: *
I mentioned or not showing the meaning of khatam as last simply means tht this argument will go in circles- something I don't have time for.
[/QUOTE]
My friend, you initiated this discussion and like all discussions it's gonna go in circles unless someone comes up with enough evidence or logic to win the other over or go their separate ways...You are welcome to leave aur yeh baihes hum yahin khatam kar detay hain...By khatam here I mean finish, or a mod can seal this thread with a lock...
^^ DITTO :)
Hash00,
I would urge you to just stop the discussion here while its still clean and has no ill feeling attached to it. You have stated all your points with the Ahmadi perspective and others are legit to believe in what they choose to do so. You provided enough information for good research if people choose to do so, otherwise, if they are not interested, it's like talking to a brick wall. Either way, you have been honest in your beliefs and if people want to find an ANTI-AHMADI perspective to argue their points, well the internet and the world has enough sources of those ! We all are aware of that.
Jazak allah for all your contribution.
Enough said, we have given opinions from scholars, all the possible meanings of Khatam, and other uses of khatam, but in turn we have only got "my maulvi says" school of thought, mistranslated verses and urdu being portrayed as Arabic.
I'd like to thank you all for your attention, may Allah guide us all, ameen.
Wasalam
Hasee
^and not to forget “that ghulam ahmad guy said so” views…
u people just keep banging ur heads on “khatam” does not mean “last” it means “seal”…
now what seal r u talking about???
the one that is seen in the waters and often put in circus juggling a beach ball??? 
frankly all other meanings u attach to the word ‘seal’ still mean that no prophet will come after Muhammad (saw)…