Ahmadi's view of Bahai's

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Ahmedjee

Just for the record. The Prophet PBUH was scrutinised!!

In his defence he produced the Qur'aan as evidence of his Prophethood!:

081.019 Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger,

081.020 Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,

081.021 With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.

Furthermore, the authentic A'Hadeeths confirm the character of Muhammad PBUH.

Even non Muslims agree that Muhammad PBUH was the Greatest.

Let Muslims and Non-Muslims alike scrutinise the character of Mirza.

We can then judge his Messiahship, Prophethood or whatever else he claimed.

82

Sholay: *“If Mirza was truly a reformer sent by Allah, then why on Gods green earth did Allah not allow him to visit MECCA or MEDINA and perform Hajj or Umra and visit the resting place of the Prophet PBUH?*
Prophet Mohammad(sa) was born and raised in Mecca, than after His claimant of Prophethood, except few, all those who call Him Sadiq and Amin, turn against him, persecuted him, and pushed him to leave Mecca, and was not allowed to come again, even once He(sa) and his Sahaba(ra) traveled all the way from Medina to Mecca to perform Hajj, they were refused to enter Mecca. All this happed till the Conquer of Mecca.

Today’s arrogant Muslim not different from kuffar’s of Mecca. The question you asked is not difficult to answer by yourself either. I once performed salat in my college mosque, and when the maulvi sahab came to know that a qadiani had prayed in his mosque, he washed the mosque three times. You even don’t allow Ahmadis to pray in your mosque, How on Gods green earth will you allow Ahmadis to visit Medina and perform hajj or Umra and visit the resting place of the Prophet PBUH?

Who is more arrogant than Muslims of these days, aside Ahmadis they even don’t allow any Non-Muslims to enter the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina, the places for which Allah and His Holy prophet(sa) himself declared as “open house of peace”, the place where anyone can enter.

This is so sad to see that you people follow your governments and not what Allah and His Prophet had said.

83

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** .... in other words rejecting Allahs signs! When God sends down a prophet its not a joke!! **

what do you mean by ALLAH's signs? Either they should be in Quran, or in nature to find out Allah SWT, right? what "signs" are you talking about?

....
*As a matter of fact this rejecting behavior of Muslims is another of the signs that Mirza Sahib (as) is the truthfulness! As the Jews rejected their Messiah with the same argument saying the commandments are there, given to Moses & we have the law, we don't need no one to tell us the right way! *

I think you'd agree that this argument (since he was rejected, he must have been TRUTHFULL) does not have any weight in it, but only for Qadiyani or Ahmedi who already has joined the faith/sect.

[/quote]

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

84

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
** ...
In his book "Aik Ghulti ka Izala" (removing a misunderstanding) ....**

"ghulti" = "mistake" not "misunderstanding"

"ghalat-fehmi" = "misunderstanding"

just a correction here

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 10, 2002).]
[/quote]

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

85

[quote]
Originally posted by Zalim:
...
I once performed salat in my college mosque, and when the maulvi sahab came to know that a qadiani had prayed in his mosque, he washed the mosque three times. ....
[/quote]

thats bad, probably he had been under influence of non-Islamic teachings.

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

86

Sholey,

[quote]
Mirza was not disabled, under curfew, injured, poor, exiled (in the beginning)or prevented by any other means.
[/quote]

You answered your question yourself!!

[quote]
The Prophet PBUH was scrutinised!!
[/quote]

Those who scrutinize the Holy Prophet (saw) and still do don't consider the Hadiths or the Quran to be valid. You don't have to go very far in search of them, many people on this very board accuse him (Naozo-billah) of many things, and its their ignorance & prejudice speaking.

Anyway, in case of Mirza Sahib I guess the testimoney of Maulvi Muhammad Husain of Batala, the acknowledged chief of the Ahl-i-Hadith sect is sufficiet. Who after Hazrat Mirza Sahib's claim to be the Promised Messiah became one of the worst apponents.

He wrote a review of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, the first big book by Hazrat Mirza Sahib. Writing in his journal, Ishaat al-Sunnah, he testified to the character and purity of life of Hazrat Mirza Sahib in the following words:

[quote]
'The author of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya is well known to us. In fact, few know more about his thoughts, aspirations, and circumstances etc., than we do. He belongs to our district and when young, attended the same courses and the same instruction as we did. We read Qutabi and Sharah Mulla together. since those days we have corresponded, communicated and conferred regularly. Nobody, therefore, should think it an exaggeration if we say that we know the author and his circumstances rather well.
[/quote]

The above is just to make you realize that he knew Promised Massiah (as) on a personal level; he further writes:

[quote]
This book, ill our opinion [referring to the Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya], is without parallel in our time, and in view of the circumstances and needs of our time there has not been another one like it in the entire history of Islam. About the future no one can say. 'Only Allah will reveal the truth after this.' As for the author, we can say there have been few Muslims, if any, who have been so constant in their service to Islam, service by purse and pen, by personal character, and by speech and silence. If we are accused of exaggeration common in Asia, we should be told at least of .one book written in our time, which answers the objections of the enemies of Islam, such as the Arya Sect and the Brahmo Samaj, with the same energy and earnestness. (Ishaat al-Sunnah, Vl. 7)
[/quote]

Alas, that in the end when Hazrat Ahmad (as) claimed to be the promised one his jealousy took the best of him.

87

Ahmedjee

So you honestly believe that Mirza did not visit the House of the Lord because he was prevented by human beings!!

If this really is the case then you are implying that man is greater than God! (La Haulla Wala Kuwata Illa Billa)

Do you honestly believe any man could stop Allah from bringing Mirza to Mecca and Medina!!

You know exactly what the answer is.

The fact that he did not visit the House of his Lord, who apparently bestowed so much grace upom him, is yet another confirmation of Mirzas falsehood.

Similarily, he did not even visit the final resting place of the Prophet PBUH.

How can a beloved of Allah be let down so badly?

No need to answer!!

88

Indeed the book Baraheen Ahmadiyya is a massive work, in which Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad presented 300 proofs of superiority of Islam over all other religions. This master piece was so well received amongst the Muslims that one Muslim even accorded him the title of Mujjadid¡XReformer, a title that had been bestowed on only 13 other people in the 1400-year history of Islam. An example of how well-loved by the Muslims this book was is shown below. It is just one of many such forms of praise Ghulam Ahmad received from his Muslim brethren:

to analyze the character and efforts of Mirza Ghiulam Ahmad for Islam, read his writings by yourself

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 10, 2002).]

89

Sholay:

No, on the contrary I was pointing out the fact that Hajj is mandatory only in certain conditions that you listed!

I believe Zalim bhai already answered this part of your question/comment by giving the example of the Holy Prophet (saw).

Holy prophet (saw) did not perform a single Hajj the 13 years of his life in Mecca. Was he afraid of the Meccans (NO!), did he fear that Allah won’t save him from ignorant human beings (NO!). Then why he didn’t? Do you have the answer? (I do!)

Second example is of Sulah Hudabia, when AnHazoor (saw) came to Mecca from Madina along with his followers but did not perform Hajj & went back peacefully! Did he go back scared of the Maccans that Allah would not protect him if a fight breaks out? (ABSOLUTLY NOT!!)

The fact of the matter is that the appointed people of Allah, his prophets, don’t do things without the consent of Allah! When Allah says break the fast, they do … they don’t go 2-3 hours more to show their piousness, instead they get their grace in obedience.

Anyway, this objection is not new and was asked to the promised Messiah (as) during his lifetime; where he answered (Malfozat Vol-5, page 388):

http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/ref-hajj.jpg

The refrence is to Surah Al-Imran verse 97/98 that talks about Hajj & its requirements.

Please let me know if you need the above translated.

But I need to! :slight_smile:

90

Changez_like,

>>>what do you mean by ALLAH's signs? Either they should be in Quran, or in nature to find out Allah SWT, right? what "signs" are you talking about?<<<<

It is Allah's tridition that whenever He sends down a messenger; there is sure enough a need for him and also Allah manifests many signs in his support for the contentness of those who believe! So, the first ‘sign’ you should be looking for is weather there is a need or the prophet and was he prophesized?! When you are convinced of this then you go look for claimants & see what are their arguments for being the chosen one?!

Mirza Sahib claimed many signs in his support; his writings, arguments, enormous service, self-sacrifice, and peaceful defense of Islam is the Jihad he professed! By all means he, along with his followers were the mightiest below to Christian missionaries & the Ariya Samaj who were waging a war against Islam at his time. He prophesized many things after learning about them from Allah, about plague, about world wars etc. His success in the Mubalihas with Lekh Ram (a persistent enemy of Islam) and of Alexander Dowie (who claimed to be Elijah) etc. the eclipse of the sun and moon exactly according to the Hadiths recorded in the traditions of the Holy prophet; His revelations about his party growing without any stop at the time when his followers were very few & his opponents laughed & vowed to demolish Qadiyan to ground etc. . . . the list goes on and on ..

Anyway, if you are into the so called ‘magical’ miracles, then you are more than welcome to read the 17 or so volume long history of Ahmadiyyat, which not only list down the accounts of his miracles but also the miracles performed by his followers. The childless couples who came to him for prayers, and he prayed for them & told them the good news & by all means his words came true word by word. There were blinds & sick on the deathbed for whom the doctors have given up and their relatives came to the Promised Messiah (as) for prayers & he prayed & Allah foretold him of their good health and in a few days they recovered! The miraculous escape of his followers from many dangerous encounters, that he had foretold etc. Indeed it’s a very interesting read!

>>>>I think you'd agree that this argument (since he was rejected, he must have been TRUTHFULL) does not have any weight in it, but only for Qadiyani or Ahmedi who already has joined the faith/sect.<<<<

I disagree, it is a sign of his truthfulness because he is being rejected in the same way (in some cases with the same specific arguments) as the first Messiah (as) was. And I see it as the words of the Holy Prophet (saw) coming true that his Messiah will be like Isa (as)! :)

91

ahmadjee, there are too many arguments and I wouldn’t want to get into them.. kinda spoils the atmosphere after a while eh? So here’s a question relating to the Hajj question: Is there really a comparison between the Prophet(PBUH) and the promised Messiah (lets say that Mirza Sahib is the promised Messiah)?

I think its really important for a Messiah/Leader to lead from the front, and if a primary concept such as Hajj is ignored, I find it very hard to digest. You have to understand that a Prophet is a Prophet, no comparisons at all. On EVERY other human, it is FARD to follow the basic tenants of Islam.

Just my opinion.
Though I do highly respect the fact that many Ahmadis have a very peaceful attitude(and so do those non-Ahmadis who follow Islam or try to) and kudos for that

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

.

92

Really dont have much against Ahmadis on a personal level. I'll pray to Allah(SWT), and if he indeed is the promised Messiah, i'm sure Allah will divert me to the right path.

That is how we should be doing it (IMO).. One who really wishes to learn and obey Allah(SWT) ends up finding guidance either way, and if they dont.. no lengthy arguments of any sort can convince them to.

93

Ahmedjee

The fact remains that the Prophet PBUH DID do Hajj at least ONCE during his lifetime.

009.003 And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

009.007 How can there be a league, before Allah and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the Sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

Whether or not he was based in Mecca is totally irrelevent.

All we ask is why did not the Chosen Man of God not visit his Lords House at least ONCE during his lifetime?

How can someone so close to his Creator be denied this great favour?

Even people with the slightest amount of Faith in their hearts are called to the House and allowed to visit!

94

Sorry, this is in Reply to Ahmedjee’s posting a while ago in Reply to my comments.

.
Andhra,
I didn’t know India had done it too, now I understand where Bhutto got his ideas! :slight_smile:
Can you tell us when such debates were held? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ahmedjee, the Saint (You guys would call him ‘Hazrat’ I believe) who did it is ‘Shankaracharya’
He defeated Budhhists in a series of debates in 6th Century I think and he established 4 centres for HInduism in India.
They are in Shringeri, Poori, Badrinath and Dwaraka.
If you look at the map, they cover the 4 corners of India!!

And would you support if such debates took place between Hindus & Muslims, and whoever wins will get to stay and the followers of others will be “out of India”?<<

Sure, why not?
Hindus have a prooven track record of winning Religious debates by Logic.
Show me one Budhhist in Andhra. Yet the place was crawling with Budhhsits not so long ago.
A town near my place has a Temple dedicated to Budhha’s tooth!!

But seriously I wouldn’t expect your Scholars to join or win the debate.

Why, even erudite people like you are having a lota trouble explaining the Hadith or reconciling the Koran!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Well, I said my piece.
Forward with Ahmedeee Bashing!! May they end up in India like Parsis!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

95

1: Do you qadiyannis belief Mirza Ahmad to be the last prophet?
2: If not who is the next "prophet" after Mirza?
3: What do you qadiyannis think of Alija Muhammad (Nation of "Islam" leader)?

96

The argument of Mirza Ahmad does not hold any ground that , "prayers are lost if one is going to perform hajj, when offering sala~t should be the foremost duty of every Muslim".

When one has made the intention to go in the path of Allah to perform hajj, then how can there be a fear of losing prayers. This is a weak statement in my opinion and can only come from a person who does not have firm faith or belief in Allah.
I have never read anything in Quran which stresses on such a rule.

Secondly, why Mirza Ahmad had to justify his reasoning by comparison; "Prophet in his times of Makkah was unable to go for Hajj" . Doesn't it make more sense that a person of a stature of Messiah should have his own valid reasons directly revealed by Allah. It's sounds more like an analogy coming from a person himself as oppose to a message from divine source. There is no spirituality involved.

Thirdly, why isn't there a single verse in Quran which mentions Mirza Ahmad as a messiah.

Just seeking the truth, and answers to some question which came to my mind after reading Mirza Ahmad's quotes.

[This message has been edited by Abdullah k (edited May 12, 2002).]

97

ammarr, so true are your words when you say that the only way to guidance is prayers, and seeking truth with an open heart. Let me make it absolutely clear, that I don’t doubt even for a second that all these arguments & counter-arguments are worthless; unless Allah changes the hearts! But the initial strife has to come from ourselves: Surely, Allah changes not the condition of people **until they change which is in their hearts [13: 11/12] * *

Answers regarding Hajj -

  1. Example not comparison: First let me make it very clear that there is no comparison between AnHazoor (saw) and the his messiah Hazrat Ahmad (as); when it was mentioned that AnHazoor (saw) didn’t perform hajj for 13 years, even though he was living in the holy city of Mecca, the intention was to give an example.

  2. Visiting Mecca & Seeing Hazrat Muhammad (saw): There are numerous **royah (spiritual dreams) of Hazrat Ahmad (as) where he had claimed to met his master the Holiest of all prophet AnHazoor (saw) [See the book **Tazkara for reference]. Reading them would give ample satisfaction to those (sholay) who think that somehow Hazrat Ahmad (as) physical presence at Mecca was necessary to prove his spiritual status!

  3. Abdullah bhai, the reason Hazrat Ahmad (as) mentioned the book ‘Hajj-ul-Quran’ is because the audience or the questioner was believer of that book! And to give the questioner an answer from what he/she believed in is the best way to win an argument! It doesn't mean that he actually believed that if a person is losing prayers, then hajj is not farad! His real answer to why he doesn’t go perform Hajj follows immediately after that; when he says [see # 4 & 5]

  4. "Mamoreen ka awal farad tabligh hota hay" – The first priority of the appointed ones of Allah, is Tabligh – Dawah and then he mentions the example of AnHazoor (saw)! That ties into my earlier explanation that the sole reason why AnHazoor (saw) didn’t perform hajj was not the fear of being persecuted by the Meccans; absolutely not! But because at that time his first the foremost ‘farad’ (ordered by Allah) was Dawah and thats what he did for all the 13 years of his life in Mecca, and so did his perfect follower, the Promised Messiah (as).

  5. Promised Messiah (as) makes it very clear, in the above mentioned text that God had ordered him to carry on his Dawah (tabligh) & had not ordered him to go the Mecca & perform Hajj;

"Woh (nabi) Khuda ki hadayat or rahnumayee say har aik amar ko baja latay haiN" (The prophets do everything with the consent & instructions of Allah) And as Allah hasn’t instructed him to go perform hajj, then how can he disobey Allah & go there just to make a few people feel better?!

  1. (ammarr) It all boils down to faith! Those who do not have faith in the promised messiah will consider every thing crucial in believing him, while other who believe consider his answers absolutely satisfactory.

Many of my Arab friends cannot get over the fact that an Imam Mahdi can come from a non-Arab nation. They do not want to hear any more arguments; as to them Hazrat Ahmad (as) being Persian is a proof in itself of his (Naozobillah) apostacy. Even though I point out to them the Hadiths of Holy prophet (saw) that says that Imam Mahdi will be from the progeny of Hazrat Salman Faras (ra).

I find very little difference in the nature of their objection & this particular objection!

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 12, 2002).]

98

[quote]
1: Do you qadiyannis belief Mirza Ahmad to be the last prophet?
[/quote]

No, he is not the last one! Prophethood is a **blessing **and the Ummah of AnHazoor (saw) deserves it more than any other Ummah! Being last in number has no significance.

[quote]
2: If not who is the next "prophet" after Mirza?
[/quote]

Prophets prophesize of the next ones to come but those prophecies do not mention exact names or address, if that's what you are looking for. :)

There is mention among the prophesies of Hazrat Ahmad (as) of one more prophet (for sure, before the end of this world), though there is no hindrance for Allah to send more; as only Allah is All-knowing.

It is believed that by the end of the 3rd century from the advent of Hazrat Ahmad (as); Islam, the true religion, will be the dominant religion of the world! After that like ever before in the history of the mankind, people will start moving away from the righteous path to a point that Allah will send down a prophet for their guidence(as is His Sunat) and that particular prophet will be rejected like never before. No one will be willing to accept him! Then Allah will decide that the mankind is hopeless & the last day will come! (Astagfurullah)

[quote]
3: What do you qadiyannis think of Alija Muhammad (Nation of "Islam" leader)?
[/quote]

There is absolutely no link between jamma'at Ahmadiyya & the Nation of Islam.

It is said (in Ahmadi & non-Ahmadi circles) that Elija Muhammad came to India & was highly influenced with the teachings of the promised messiah (as)! When he came back to United States he professed the same principles & made his own Nation of Islam; which has no links what so ever to the jama'at Ahmadiyya.

Nation of Islam publicly deny that, and consider the teachings of Elijah as original.

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 12, 2002).]

99

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdullah k:
**
Thirdly, why isn't there a single verse in Quran which mentions Mirza Ahmad as a messiah.
**
[/quote]

Other than AnHazoor (saw) none other prophets were mentioned by the previous ones by name. For example, there is no prophacy in Old testament that the one to come as a Messiah will be named Issa.

Quran mentions "62: 3/4 -- And HE will raise him among others of them who have not yet joined them. HE is the Mighty, the Wise."

Please read its commentary and you might get what you are looking for.

100

Jazakallah ahmadjee, you have given well satisfactory replies, but again it all depends on the receiving end, how one perceive religious insight - it depends on the level of taqwa one possesses. Allah says that He only guides those who incline towards Him. [29:69]

Its true Prophets are great blessing, and at this present age there is a dire NEED of a Prophet and that is why Muslims believe that Eesa will come down, Hindus believe that Krishan Will come down, and so Budhist, Jews, Christians and other religions are waiting for a reformer. It is indeed the Need of the time, today the majority of the world has diverted all its motives from spirituality to sexuality, immorality and other worldly materialisms.

Somehow Muslims think being last is a great blessing rather having a Prophet and this concept will safe them OR keep them more spiritual. The fact is no one can exalt the greatness of Holy Prophet(sa) with this “Last rank” on the canvas of religions. There is no significance being last. Followers of Yusuf(as) also say that No prophet will come after him.

Quran nowhere says that Prophet cannot come, but it dose give glad tidings that Prophets can come. And if Prophet has to come, he will come under the obedience of Holy Prophet as a sub-ordinate prophet and not the old prophets. As in the past many has been sent under the obedience of Mosses as sub-ordinate Prophets (including Jesus).

I would like to share one example in this regard, Allah says:
[quote]
**[al-A`raf 7:35] O children of Adam, IF MESSENGERS COME TO YOU FROM AMONG YOURSELFS, rehearsing MY Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.

[al-A`raf 7:36] But those who reject OUR Signs and turn away from them with disdain, - these are the inmates of the Fire; they shall abide therein.**
[/quote]

wasalam

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 13, 2002).]