Ahmadis in Pakistan

JeevayPakistan · August 18, 2006, 2:08am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

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system · August 18, 2006, 2:35pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

How can you say that when Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam and the Sahaba radiAllahuanhum prescribed this punishment for apostacy?
The punishment for apostacy is not in the Quran, but we can find the punishment in Ahadith. To my understanding this has been the unanimous view of all muslims of all time, except in the last 100 years or so.

Here are the ahadith:

Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17: *
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260: *

Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271: *

Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

system · August 18, 2006, 2:47pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

This discussion seems to be going slightly off topic.
Anyways Nuzululmasih, you still didn't respond to the rest of my post.
I said that all of the arguments that you are using to justify the prophethood of mirza ghulam are so vague and unclear that those same arguments can be used to declare someone like elijah mohammed a prophet (and he did declare prophethood). And just like mirza ghulam he also twisted the teachings of Islam, and he still has many followers just like qadiyanis.
You still haven't responded to ahadith about Isa alaihisalaam and Mahdi being two different people.
And you still haven't responded to the way you have misinterpretated the Ayaat in Surah 69.

Please keep your posts short and concise. You should be able to explain things in a simple manner. And the way you post these long replies, I am starting to think that this is the way how qadiyanis are able to decieve people.

NuzululMasih · August 18, 2006, 7:44pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

Assalam sherafghan,

You have not put forth the suitable references which you claim convey that the Mahdi and the Messiah are two seperate people, why should I then respond, while i have put forth the authentic Ahadith as well as their descriptive references, while you have not put forth even one from a reliable source, the references I gave should suffice for any fair minded person:

Sahih Bukhari **Volume 4, Book 55, Number 649:

Narrated Abdullah:

The Prophet mentioned the Massiah Ad-Dajjal in front of the people saying, Allah is not one eyed while Messsiah, Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. While sleeping near the Ka'ba last night, I saw in my dream a man of brown color the best one can see amongst brown color and his hair was long that it fell between his shoulders. His hair was lank and water was dribbling from his head and he was placing his hands on the shoulders of two men while circumambulating the Kaba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'This is Jesus, son of Mary.' Behind him I saw a man who had very curly hair and was blind in the right eye, resembling Ibn Qatan (i.e. an infidel) in appearance. He was placing his hands on the shoulders of a person while performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. I asked, 'Who is this? 'They replied, 'The Masih, Ad-Dajjal.'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 650:

Narrated Salim from his father:

No, By Allah, the Prophet did not tell that Jesus was of red complexion but said, "While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka'ba (in my dream), suddenly I saw a man of brown complexion and lank hair walking between two men, and water was dropping from his head. I asked, 'Who is this?' The people said, 'He is the son of Mary.' Then I looked behind and I saw a red-complexioned, fat, curly-haired man, blind in the right eye which looked like a bulging out grape. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'He is Ad-Dajjal.' The one who resembled to him among the people, was Ibn Qatar." (Az-Zuhri said, "He (i.e. Ibn Qatan) was a man from the tribe Khuza'a who died in the pre-lslamic period.")**

**1. “There is no Mahdi except Isa (as)” the Arabic transliteration is: “Lal mahdiyyu illa ‘isaab na maryama” This is from the authentic source of Ibn Majah, and Bab Shiddatuz Zaman. Both of whose authenticity and validity have been universally accepted by Islamic scholars and divines.

****2. “It is possible that he who lives among you might meet Jesus the son of Mary (as) WHO IS THE IMAM MAHDI and a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine. The Arabic transliteration is: ‘…isabna maryama imaaman mahdiyya wa hakaman etc…” Again this Authentic Ahadeeth is recorded in the book Musnad Ahmad page 156/2. Every scholarly Muslim knows that Musnad is a Sahih Book, meaning one of the most authentic books of Hadith.

Hadith recorded in Sahih Bukhari: Hadhrat Abu Huraira (rah) himself reports that the Holy Prophet (saw) said: “ how will it fare with you when the son of Mary (as) descends among you? Who is he? Indeed he is none other than your own Imam, your Mentor, who will be born among you as a Muslim.” The Arabic transliteration is; …izaa nazalabnu maryami feekum wa Imamukum min kum.” This is recorded in the most authentic hadeeth book i.e. Bukhari under the chapter Kitabul Anbiya and is the Hadeeth no. 3449.

There is a Hadith in Sahih Bukhari, the most authentic book of Ahadeeth in the world, which relates the Miraj of the Prophet (saw) and his description of the TWO Messiahs! The first he mentions as medium height, REDDISH COMPLEXION, CURLY HAIR and a broad chest, but in the same book, in fact the very next hadeeth, he describes the physical looks of a different Messiah, and says that he is the second Messiah and says about him that he is of LIGHT COMPLEXION THE COLOR OF WHEAT (BROWN), and having, NOT CURLY, but STRAIGHT BLACK HAIR reaching down to his ears. It is recorded in Bukhari under the chapter of Kitabul Anbiya, Hadith No. 3437, 3438, and 3440.

While I was asleep, I saw myself (in a dream) making tawaf (circling) around the Ka`bah. I saw a brown-skinned man with straight hair being supported by two men, and with water dripping from his head. I asked: "Who is this?" They said: "The son of Mary." (Sahih Bukhari).**

*It is clear from these authentic Ahadith that the Mahdi and the Messiah are the same person, bearing only different titles in reference to the specific missions mentioned under the two titles. Now what more do you want? Either accept these Ahadith as true or reject the words of Hadhrat RasoolUllah as false, because from the citations it is clear how trustworthy and authentic their origin is. *

*The verses in Ch 69 are similar to the verses in Ch. 18 of Deut. which are one way of determining the truth of those who claim Prophethood, one way, please keep that in mind. *

**I have to go to work now, I will answer in more detail when I come back Insha-Allah.

**

Kaka_MaNNa · August 18, 2006, 9:55pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

Since you are holding on to same hadiths and repeating while ignoring my replies.

I am sure these hadiths will appeal to you as much as the ones you quoted above and if you could please provide LINKS where you are getting them it would help with the DISCUSSION!

My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)

I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me.
(Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Muatta’)

You (Hazrat Ali) are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses (pbuh). But no Apostle will come after me.
(Bukhari, Muslim
Musnad recorded a similar hadith ending in ‘Behold there is no prophethood after me.’)

If prophethood was valid after Prophet Mohammad bin Abdullah, it would have been Hazrat Umar, Abu Bakr, Ali, Usman, Prophet Mohammad’s own son, Ibrahim, who were more qualified and close to God than any invidual that came after them. But above hadith proves that even Ali who is like brother to Prophet Mohammad bin Abdullah, the line of prophets ended 1400 years ago.

If ever there arose a person from among my people who would hold communion with God, it would be none else but 'Umar bin Khattab.
(Bukhari , Muslim, Tirmidhi)

The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.
(Bukhari)

The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.
(Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Anas bin Malik)

Hadith after hadith where Prophet Mohammad bin Abdullah (pbuh) is saying the line of prophets has ended, there is no prophet after him, no apostle… what excuse and what twist do you have in response to these hadiths?

There will arise thirty impostors in my Ummah and each one of them will pronounce to the world that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets of God and no Prophet will come after me.
(Abu Dawood, Tirmizi)

…O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you…
(Read: The Entire Sermon)

Yet you pick the things that you like and the ones you can twist and turn in order to fool and mislead others. Qadiyanism is a new religion and has nothing to do with Islam!

JeevayPakistan · August 18, 2006, 11:27pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

sherafghan:

How can you say that when Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam and the Sahaba radiAllahuanhum prescribed this punishment for apostacy?
The punishment for apostacy is not in the Quran, but we can find the punishment in Ahadith. To my understanding this has been the unanimous view of all muslims of all time, except in the last 100 years or so.

Here are the ahadith:

Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17: *
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”

Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260: *

Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ "
Sahih Bukhari: *Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271: *

Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle

How could anyone accredit greater weight to such traditions than to the manifestly clear dictates of the Holy Quran:

If thy Lord had enforced His Will, surely all those on the earth would have believed without exception. Will thou than take it upon thyself to force people to become believers? Except by Allah’s leave no one can believe and He will afflict with His wrath those who will not use their understanding. (10.100–1)

When God Himself does not force people to believe, who are we to raise the sword to force belief or to set Maududian mouse-traps?

Other references from Holy Quran are:

2.57, 100, 109, 218, 257, 273
3.21, 73, 86–92, 145
4.83, 138, 139, 146
5.55, 62, 91–3, 99–100
6.67, 105–8, 126
7.124–9
9.11–14
10.100–9
13.41
15.10
16.83, 105–7, 126
17.55
18.30
19.47
20.72–4
22.40
24.55
25.42–4
26.117
28.57
29.19
39.30–42
40.26, 27
42.7, 8, 48, 49
47.26
50.46
51.57
64.9–13
66.7
88.22–3

By the way you should know that the following principals have been excepted by Islamic scholars throughout the ages:

The Word of God stands supreme.
This is followed by the actual practices of the Holy Prophet of Islamsa. This is known as sunnah.
This is followed by hadith, the words reported to be those of the Holy Prophetsa
If the authenticity of the words of the Holy Prophetsa is established unquestionably, the words concerned are words put into the mouth of the Holy Prophetssa by God Almighty. Where there is no apparent contradiction between the word of the Holy Prophetsa and the Quran, the tradition may be accepted as authentic.

a. There are no two opinions regarding the accepted fact that whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islamsa contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophetsa.

b. If such a tradition does not glaringly violate any injunction of the Holy Quran and there is room for compromise, then ideally an attempt should be made to search for a suitable compromise before the final rejection of the tradition.

c. In attempting to reconcile a tradition attributed to the Holy Prophetsa with the Holy Quran, it must always be borne in mind that the clear teachings of the Holy Quran are not to be compromised for the sake of a so-called tradition, but a genuine attempt is to be made to find an explanation of the tradition. Therefore in all cases of doubt, the tradition is put to the anvil of the Holy Quran and judged accordingly.

d. If there is no contradiction between the Holy Quran and hadith, then their mutual merit of credibility would be determined according to the reliability of the sources and the chain of narrators.

e. Such a tradition will also be compared with other authentic and widely accepted traditions to make sure that the tradition does not conflict with other traditions.

f. Lastly, another reliable method of investigating the credibility of a tradition is to study its internal evidence critically. If the contents of the tradition clash with the image of the Holy Prophet of Islam which has emerged from a study of his conduct and bearing throughout his life, then such a tradition would be rejected as a false attribution to the Holy Prophetsaor as being against the principles of logic and common sense.

In conclusion, the Punishment for Apostasy lies in the hand of God Almighty, against whom the offence has been committed. Apostasy which is not aggravated by some other crime is not punishable in this world. This is the teaching of God. This was the teaching of the Holy Prophet:saw:.

system · August 19, 2006, 12:42am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

i am not going to reply to your greeting for obvious reasons

Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are not the only books with sahih ahadeeth, and I can show you lots of hadith which seem to contradict each other. A fair minded person would not be able to decide what to accept. So, the scholars are the ones who interpret these ahadith.

I am copying and pasting the following from Kitab al Mahdi in Sunan Abu Dawood. I just searched Abu Dawood for the ahadith and if I go through other books I am pretty sure I can give you more ahadith.

Book 36, Number 4266:
Narrated Jabir ibn Samurah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him)
said: The religion will continue to be established till there
are twelve caliphs over you, and the whole community will
agree on each of them. I then heard from the Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) some remarks which I could not understand.
I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them
will belong to Quraysh.
Book 36, Number 4269:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him)
said: If only one day of this world remained. Allah would
lengthen that day (according to the version of Za'idah), till
He raised up in it a man who belongs to me or to my family
whose father's name is the same as my father's, who will fill
the earth with equity and justice as it has been filled with
oppression and tyranny (according to the version of Fitr).
Sufyan's version says: The world will not pass away before the
Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the
same as mine.
Book 36, Number 4270:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him)
said: If only one day of this time (world) remained, Allah
would raise up a man from my family who would fill this earth
with justice as it has been filled with oppression.
Book 36, Number 4271:
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of
the descendants of Fatimah. Abdullah ibn Ja'far said: I heard
AbulMalih praising Ali ibn Nufayl and describing his good
qualities.
Book 36, Number 4272:
Narrated AbuSa'id al−Khudri: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him)
said: The Mahdi will be of my stock, and will have a broad
forehead a prominent nose. He will fill the earth will equity
and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny, and
he will rule for seven years.

Isa ibn Maryam and Muhammad ibn Abdullah are two different names, and Isa alaihisalaam did not have a father and could not possibly be among the descendants of Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam.

And again, you still haven't replied to the rest of my arguments.

system · August 19, 2006, 12:48am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

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NuzululMasih · August 19, 2006, 2:54am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

Assalamualaikum wa Rahmatullah,

Please be cautious of what you allege. Ahmadiyyat, not Qadianism by name, has evrything to do with Islam, and is Islam in its prestine purity, in comparison to the many deviations that have appeared within the Islam in the latter days.

It is too evident that if these Ahadith are to be taken literally, that is, that there shall never appear any kind of prophet after the Hadhrat RasoolUllah (saw), then what room is left for Hadhrat Jesus (as) to re-appear? Is he not a Prophet of Allah? Yet we find in countless Ahadith the news of the re-advent of Hadhrat Masih (as), so familiar are the Ahadith of the re-advent of Isa (as), that I need not mention them.

The Ahadith that you have set forth are accepted by us, but not in the literal sense, for if it is accepted in the literal sense of the word then there is surely no room left for Hadhrat Isa (as) to descend, for he was a Prophet of God, and shall forever remain to be as is recorded in the Holy Qur'an (3:50), (43:60), (61:7).

How then is Hadhrat Isa (as) going to return? If he does comes back in whatever manner he shall be falsified by these Ahadith, IF they are to be taken literally.

Furthermore if these Ahadith are taken to be literal then there are, according to you contradictions in the words of the holiest man who ever walked upon the face of the earth (saw). Becuse while, according to you, the Holy Prophet (saw) meant that there is absolutely no room for any prophet to come after me, yet referring to the coming of the Messiah (as) of the latter days, ie, prophesizing about his re-advent, the Holy Prophet (saw) calls him Nabi Ullah four times, yet he is refferring to the future. The reference of the Hadith is that it is recorded in Al Sahi Muslim in Kitab Al-Fitan in the chapter about Dajjaal. Irrespective of the fact whether we have thirty or thirty million dajjals or impostors, the fact remains that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) has called the Messiah of
the latter days as a prophet of God. No one can change that.

With regards to the appearance of thirty dajjal in the Muslim Ummah, we have the following in Ikmal- Al-lkmal, a commentary of Al-Sahi Muslim (vol. 7, pg. 258 Egyptian) “It would be evident to every student of the history of Islam that the truth of this Hadith has been fully established. The number of impostors from the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) till today has reached the count indicated by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) in his prophecy.“

This, indeed, is the fulfillment of a divine plan that the prophesied count of the impostors was completed before the advent of the true claimant to prophethood and it was documented in the book noted above by Muhammad Bin Yusuf Al Sannusi Al-Hassani (died 895 A.H.). It could be argued that there may have been some more impostors making claims following the year 895 A.H. till the time of Promised Messiah (peace be on him). This would make the number mentioned in the Hadith about thirty dajjal as dubious. But that was not so.

This argument is put to rest by a top scholar of Ahle Hadith, Nawab Siddique Hassan Khan, an almost contemporary of the Promised Messiah (peace be on him). He writes: The prophecy made by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) regarding the advent of Dajjal in this Ummah has been fulfilled and their number as foretold has been completed. (Hijaj Al-Keramah pg. 239, published 1291 A.H. / 1874 A.D.).

According to the above reference, the number of impostors as prophesized in the Hadith, having come already the time was nigh for the Messiah to come. God, in His wisdom, planned it so that before the advent of the Messiah a prominent scholar of Ahle Hadith certified that all impostors had come and gone… it was time for the Messiah to come.

‘The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) said: ‘If there was to be a prophet after me, it would certainly have been Umar Bin Al Khattab.’ This Hadith falls in the category of the weak ones. We do not find it save through Mishrah Bin Ha’an.” (Tirmizi Abwab Almanaqib Bab Manaqib- i-Umar).

Generally the first portion of the Hadith is discussed. The last portion is conveniently overlooked. According to this Hadith, our opponents argue since Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) lived after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) and did not become a prophet, therefore, prophethood has ended. It is to be noted that after recording this Hadith, lman Tirmizi observes it falls in the category of ‘Hassanun Gharibun’ - authenticity of this Hadith is questionable. It is handed down by one narrator Mishrah Bin Ha’an about whom it is recorded in Altahzeed Altahzeeb vol. IO, pg. 155: “lbn-i-Hayyan says: He (Mishrah Bin Ha’an) was among the weak narrators of Hadith. He is not to be relied upon, particularly, when he is found to be the lone narrator of a Hadith. In that cast the Hadith should be rejected.”

Ibn- i-Daud (a famous compiler of Ahadith) agreeing with the above view further states “He was in the gang of Al Hajjaaj who had besieged Ibn Al Zubair and had raided the Ka’aba and pelted it with stones.” In view of the above, the authenticity of this Hadith is highly questionable. There are however sayings of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) which may help clarify this topic.

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) is reported to have said to Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) “Had I not been raised as a prophet, 0 Umar, you would have been raised as one.” (Mirqat Sharh-E-Mishkat vol. 5, pg. 539). Another saying reads: “Had I not been sent to you, Umar would have been sent to you.“ (Kunuz Al Haqaiq pg. 103).

All these traditions point to one fact. That is Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) was endowed with the potentials of a prophet. Had the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) not been born and commissioned Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) would have been. This is the meaning of these sayings. Nothing more and nothing less.

Now in regards to the Ahadith about Ibrahim, the son of Muhammad (saw).
The Hadith, as noted above, states ‘Had he lived he would have been a true prophet.....‘. Our opponents contend that God in His wisdom caused him to die lest he should become a prophet. The fact is there is no wisdom in this. It is an attack on the intelligence and eloquence of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). Let us consider the background of the Hadith. The verse containing ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’ was revealed in the year 5 A.H. Hazrat lbrahim the son of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) died in beginning of the year 9 A.H. If the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of
Allah be on him) understood ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’ to mean that no prophet of any kind could now come, he would not have made a statement like the one mentioned in this Hadith above. He could have said although lbrahim was a pure soul but since the door to prophethood is closed, had he lived he would not become a prophet.

There is another tradition or Hadith which settles this question of Ba’adee (after me) once and for all. “Hazrat Ali Ibn-i-Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates: When lbrahim, son of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), passed away, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) had Ibrahim’s mother Mariyya bathe him and wrap him in a shroud. Thereafter the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) brought the body out
with his companions walked to the cemetery and buried him. He then put his hand on Ibrahim’s grave and said ‘By God, he is a prophet and a son of a prophet.“’ (Tarikh Al Kabeer by Ibn-i- Asakir page 295 and Al Fatawa Al Hadithiyyah by Ibn- i-Hajar Al Haithami pg. 125). Hazrat Ali was a member of the family therefo re his narration is more authoritative and descriptive.

If we look for their interpretation of these Ahadith we note one Hazrat Mullah Ali Al-Qari (died 1014 A.H.) writing: “If lbrahim had lived and become a prophet and if Umar had become one too, both of them would have been subordinate prophets and followers of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) even as Jesus, Khizar and Ilyas, their prophethood would not have run counter to the Holy Prophets title ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’. This is so because ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’ simply implies that after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) there cannot be any prophet who brings a new Shariah and is not from his Ummah and his follower.” (Mauznat- i-Kabeeri page
322 published by Quran Mahal, Karachi - Pakistan).

I would first present to you the well-known saying of Hazrat Ayesha Siddiqa (may
Allah be pleased with her). She said: “Say He (The Holy Prophet) is ‘Khatamul-Anbiyya’ but do not say that there would be no prophet after him.” (Durre Mansoor Vol 5, page 204). That is to say that Hazrat Ayesha was aware that the words of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) would be misconstrued so she made it a point to clarify the meaning of “La Nabi Ba’adee”
for the people. Being closest to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), she understood the meaning of ‘La Nabi Ba’adee’ most clearly.

Similarly, Shaikh Al lmam Hazrat Ibn Qutaiba (died 267 A-H.) , referring to the above noted interpretation of “La Nabi Ba’adee” writes: “This interpretation, put forth by her (Hazrat Ayesha), does not contradict the words of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) meant that there would be no prophet after him who would abrogate his law.” (Taweel Mukhtalaf Al Ahadith pg. 236).

So Laa Nabi Ba'di, means that there shall appear no new prophet after the Holy Prophet (saw) who would abrogate or abolish the Law of the Holy Quran. He would not be outside of Islam, but shall walk in the footsteps of the Holy Prophet (saw) so perfectly and flawlessly that he would become like his shadow. Therefore, his Prophethood would not be of his own right, would not be independent of the Prophethood of Muhammad (saw) but would be the torchbearer of the Prophethood of Muhammad (saw). He would be his representative, and as such he would not be a Prophet by virtue of his own merit, but by the everlasting bounty of following the Holy Prophet (saw).

I shall also present the writings of various Mujaddids and saintly scholars of the past who held the same view:

Hazrat Shah Waliullah Mohaddes Dehlavi, universally acknowledged as the Mujaddid (reformer) of the 12th century and very well known to Muslims of the sub-continent and who is held in high esteem by these people, writes in Quratul Aineen Fi Tafseel Alshaikhain pg. 602: “It must be clearly understood that the object of this Hadith is to highlight the appointment of Hazrat Ali (Allah be pleased with him) to act in the place of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) when he was to be absent from Medina during his expedition to Tabuk.
Also, to highlight Hazrat Ali’s resemblance to Hazrat Haroon (peace be on him) when Hazrat Musa (peace be on him) had journeyed to the Mount. It is to be noted that the word ‘Ba’adee’ (after me) here means ‘Ghairi’ (beside me). It does not mean after me in time.

From the writings of acknowledged divines and reformers about “Khatamun Nabbiyeen”

In the government of Pakistan ‘white paper’ a noted Muslim thinker, Allama Abdur Rehman Bin Khaldun (may Allah have mercy on him) (died 808 A.H.) is mentioned. He is noted to have said “Wa Yum Saloona… Khatamatun Nabbuwat.” That is people categorize saintliness or holiness according to degrees of rank. The one who has attained the highest rank is termed ‘Khatam-Al-Auliya’. Similarly in terms of prophethood, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on achieved the highest rank and was called ‘Khatamul-Anbiyya’. (Muqaddama by Ibne-Khaldun
pg. 271-272, published in Egypt)

That is to say ‘Khatam’ has no relevance to time. It is indicative of the highest degree or rank. If we use it to mean ‘the last’ then we have to agree that sainthood has come to an end as well. God forbid we would be depriving the Ummah of this blessing as well.

Hazrat Abu Saeed Mubarak lbne Ali Makhrumi (died 513 A.H.) the patron saint of no less a person than Hazrat Syed Abdul Qadir Gilani (may Allah have mercy on him) says “Wal Ahkhara.....Wa Sallama Khatamun Nabbiyeen” - man holds the highest position in the Universe. When he soars high all the noble qualities in all their magnitude mentioned above find their manifestation in him and he is called The Perfect Man. Boundless, indeed, are the noblest qualities that found their perfection in our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) and that is why the highest title of “Khatamun Nabbiyeen” was conferred upon him.” (Tohfah Mursala Sharif pg. 51)

These passages contain similar themes but all aspects of ‘Khatamiyyat’ are not covered in these. Hazrat Maulana Rum (may Allah have mercy on him) (died 672 A.H.) says, “Behre Een Khatim Shud Ast.....Khatum Sanat Bar Too Ast.” The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was declared ‘Khatim’ because he excelled in munificence and in perpetuating the spiritual blessings to his followers. When a craftsman excels and achieves perfection, don’t we say that craftsmanship has come to an end with him. (Masnavi Maulana Rum ch. 6 pg. 18-19)

This is the same theme expressed by the Promised Messiah (peace be on him), as noted earlier where he says that an important aspect of ‘Khatamiyyat’ is that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) passed on to his followers the spiritual blessings he had achieved.

Maulana Muhammad Qasim Naunotawi, chief of Deobandi sect (the sect which today is in the forefront of those distorting the meaning of ‘Khatamun-Nabbiyeen’) writes: “Charged with the duty of delivering Divine Commandments to the people, prophets may be likened to governors. They are God’s vicegerents on earth. They therefore hold a position of authority. The office of a governor or minister is considered the highest in a chain of subordinate officers. A governor or a minister has the authority to set aside the orders or directives of his subordinates. Their orders, on the other hand, cannot be set aside by the subordinate officers. The final authority rests with the governor. Similarly, the one in whom prophethood found its perfection was declared The Seal of The Prophets - ‘Khatamun-Nabbiyeen’, as there is no rank higher than his. (Mobahesa Shahjahanpur pg. 24-25).

Advent of a prophet from the Ummah is not in conflict with
‘Khatame-Nabbuwat’

In this connection, I would like to place before you a passage from the writings of the well known Mujaddid Alfe Saani, Hazrat Shaikh Ahmad Farooqi Sarhindi, in his Makoobat (vol. 1 Maktoob 301 pg. 432) states: “Following the adve nt of the Khatmur-Rosul, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), the attainment of prophethood by one of his followers, as a subordinate and in service of the Holy Prophet, will in no way offend or be in conflict with his
status as Khaatamur-Rosul. No doubts need be entertained in this regard.” This belies the claims made in the “white paper” that without exception all holy men and saints in the past held the view that ‘Khatamiyyat’ meant ‘the last’ and that the door to all kinds of prophethood is now closed.

Again, the sixth Shiite Imam, Hazrat Jaffar Sadiq, in his book Al-Saafi Sharah Osoolul Kaafi (vol. III, page 119) referring to the divine gift of Prophethood and lmamat in the progeny of Hazrat lbrahim (peace be on him) and commenting on the Quranic verse “Surely, we gave to the children of Abraham the book and wisdom and we gave them a great kingdom.” “Allah raised prophets, messengers and imams from the progeny of Hazrat lbrahim (peace be on him). It is therefore
surprising that while acknowledging these blessings among the progeny of Hazrat lbrahim (peace be on him), people tend to deny this possibility in the case of the progeny and the followers of Hazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him).”

We have the following couplet from Maulana Rum, one of the chief saints of Muslim Ummah. “Fir Kun Rah Naeko Khidmate Ta Nabbuwat Yaabi Undar Ummate.” Meaning, “Exert yourself in the service of faith to such an extent that you be granted prophethood within the Muslim Ummah.” (Masnani Maulana Rum vol. 5, pg. 42). What judgement would these present day ‘Ulema’ who are hostile to Ahmadiyyat pass against these saints and sages quoted above? How are they going to disregard these writings? These writings belie the fact that all luminaries in the Ummah from the very beginning held the view that ‘Khatamiyyat’ meant end of prophethood. It is not conceivable that members of a major department of a government entrusted with the task of research on this issue would not come up with these writings. This is shear deception and hypocrisy.

Let us look at what the luminaries of the Ummah have said in the past. Renowned Sufi Hazrat Abu Abdullah Muhammad Bin Ali Hussain Al-Hakeem Al-Tirmizi (died 308 A-H.) writes: “The notion that the term ‘Khatamun-Nabbiyeen’ signifies that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was the last prophet is erroneous. What glory and majesty is there in being the last? What wisdom underlies this interpretation? It is an interpretation put forth by the imbeciles and the illiterates.” (Khatam- Alauliya pg. 341).

In the 6th century, Hijra, Hazrat Mohayuddin Ibn Arabi, the world renowned muslim scholar and commentator (died 638 A.H.), proclaimed in Fatoohat- i-Makkiyya (vol. I, pg. 545): “We know this with certainty that in the Muslim Ummah there will be individuals whose status, according to Allah, will be of prophets but such prophethood will be without any new law or shariah.” He further writes: “Prophethood will continue in mankind till the Day of Resurrection although
prophethood bearing a new shariah or law has come to an end. It must be realized, however, that bringing a new law is one of the many duties of prophethood.” (Fatoohat- i-Makkiyya vol. 2, ch. 23, pg- 100).

Again, in the same book (vol. 2, ch. 73, pg. 3) Hazrat Ibn Arabi states: “The prophethood which came to an end with the advent of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was Tashri’ee Nubuwat - a prophet with a new book and new law. There is no room for such prophethood after the Holy Quran. This is the correct meaning of the Hadith, which contains the Holy Prophet’s saying that there is to be no prophet after him. The Hadith only conveys that after
the Holy Prophet, there can be no prophet who will replace his Sharia with another one. Henceforth, whenever any prophet comes, he will be subordinate to him and his Shariah.” How can anyone close his eyes to such a clear exposition of this subject of prophethood after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). Our opponents continue to deny this. They do not fear God.

Hazrat Shah Waliullah Dehlavi, universally acknowledged as the Mujaddid (reformer) of the 12th Century and very well known and regarded by the Muslims of the sub-continent and who is quoted as an authority in the ‘white paper’ says: “The end of prophethood with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) only means that there can now be no prophet for the people who
will bring or introduce a new Shariah.” (Tafhimate- ilahiyyah vol. 2 pg. 72-73).

Closer to our own period, there is the proclamation of the founder of Madrasatul Uloom, Deoband, Hazrat Maulvi Muhammad Qasim Naunotawi (who died in 1889). He says in Tahzeer Alnas page 3: “The general public may conceive that ‘Khatamun Nabbiyeen’ means that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) was the last of the prophets but people of knowledge and
understanding know it very well that being the first or last does not necessarily connote excellence. The words “Wala Kin Rasool Lallahe Wa Khatamun Nabbiyeen” are designed to convey the Holy Prophet’s (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) exalted and unequalled status and this alone is the correct interpretation. Khatamiyyat is not in any way rejected or denied if a prophet appears after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him). But if Khatamiyyat is only taken to mean the last prophet, this would be a disparaging interpretation. Such an interpretation would not be acceptable to followers of Islam.” Here the founder of the Deoband Movement clearly states that calling the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) the last prophet is a disparaging remark. Yet his followers now claim this to be their fundamental belief. Who is a true follower of Islam? Ahmadis or these people?

It is too clear that sherafghan does not fully comprehend the majesty of the words of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and insists that they are literal shallow meanings, whereas eminent scholars from the earliest periods of Islam hold a different view, the same views which the Ahmadi's hold. It is clear from these eminent scholars that a prophet can appear within the Ummah of the Highest and most exalted Prophet and Servant of Allah (saw).

And if you ask me a question sherafghan, be ready to recieve the full answer from me. This is a long reply yes but in response to what you falsy allege againt the Promised Messiah (As).

And about Elijah Muhammad, it is clear that he and his works do not fit the description of the Holy Prophet (saw), and his followers are statistically decreasing in size, while Ahmadiyyat is the only Jammat which believes in the true Messiah (as) and is increasing most rapidly, and is present in over 184 countries worldwide. Read Surah Al-NAsr and you will see that this prophecy is being fulfilled even now, and only in the Jammat of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Khatamul Khalifah of the Holy Prophet (saw). Also, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is the only claiment to Messiahood and Mahdihood who appeared east of Damascus where a White Minaret stands. True he did not himslef literally descend upon the minaret in Qadian, which is geographically exactly east of Damascus, but that Minaret entitled "Mineratul Masih" is the only Minerat in the world claiming to be the Prophecied Minaret upon which the Messiah (as) was to metaphorically descend.

What more proof do you seek?

Also in answer to your claim that Hadhrat Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman or Ali are most entitled to Prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw) then consider the following Hadith:

"Abu Bakr is the best of men after me, except that a Prophet should appear" (Kanz al Ummaal).

In short we accept and believe all that you have quoted but we understand it's meaning in the true light, not as literal and shallow as you do, we accept them under the interpretation of the various divines that I have quoted above.

Now my question to you is do you accept the Ahadith that I have qouted? I cannot paste URL's right now, the computer is telling me that I need more than 25 points, but nevertheless, the references are there, look them up yourself.

JazakAllah.

yo_wasim · August 19, 2006, 6:17am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

Thanks NuzuluMasiha, for providing me with insight of Ghulam Ahmad, below is the concise matter of the information posted for my request. I have jotted down, the characteristics of Ghulam Ahmad, do correct me if I am wrong.

Messiah, Ghulam Ahmad (as), about his mission,

[quote]
Sayings; that the prophecies contained ill the different religious books about the advent of a Divine Messenger in the latter days have also been fulfilled in his person;
[/quote]

A messiah as proclaimed

[quote]

he was to be commanded by God to affirm and propagate the truth of the Holy Prophet, and was to unite the followers of different religions into an
acceptance of Islam. The prophecies in the books of other religions which foretold the coming of a teacher all met their fulfilment in him. He was the Messiah for Christians and Jews, the Masiodarbahmi for the Zoroastrians, and Krishna for the Hindus.

[/quote]

His claim that he is not a law bearing Prophet

[quote]

All prophethoods, except the Mohammedi prophethood, are now closed. No prophet can arise even without a law but only one who is a follower of the Holy Prophet.

He has repeatedly announced that he is not a law-bearing prophet and that he is a follower of the Holy Quran. He has disclaimed being a prophet in his own right and his claim is confined to being the Mahdi and the Messiah.

law brought by the Holy Prophet, in his capacity as his follower and servant and that he was not given any new law.

I am a prophet, but my prophethood is not law-bearing which would abrogate the Book of Allah and put into effect a new book.

[/quote]

Communication of Ghulam Ahmad with God, through Prophet Mohammed

[quote]

I cannot acquire any degree of honor or excellence, nor any station of exaltation or nearness to God except through sincere and perfect obedience to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, Whatever is bestowed upon me is by way of reflection of, and through, the Holy Prophet.
I know through my true and perfect knowledge that no human being can approach God or acquire perfect understanding of the Divine except through following the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

[/quote]

Allaah declares Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet or a Messiah

[quote]

It is thus clear beyond doubt that the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, did not consider himself a prophet in his own right, but believed that God Almighty had bestowed upon him the title of prophet for the purpose of establishing the perfect

The only reason that I call myself a prophet is that I am honored with the converse of God Almighty and that He speaks to me frequently and responds to me and discloses much of the unseen to me and communicates to me the mysteries of the future such that are not disclosed to anyone unless he enjoys special nearness to God. It is on account of the multiplicity of these experiences that I have been made a prophet.

The Divine wisdom has bestowed this grace upon me that I have raised to the station of prophethood through the blessings of the grace of
the Holy Prophet,

[/quote]

Obedience or Allegiance to Prophet Mohammed by Ghulam Ahmad and it elevation for being a Prophet

[quote]

Had I not been a follower of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and had not obeyed him, then even if my good deeds had reached the tops of mountains, I would not have been honored with the converse of God inas much as all prophethoods except the Muhammadi prophethood have come.

Thus my prophethood and messengership derives from my being Mohammed and Ahmad and not on account of my own self

[/quote]

Ghulam Ahmad is the reflection of Prophet Mohammed salaAllaahwaliuwasalam or Re incarnation of Prophet.

[quote]

Being a reflection of the Holy Prophet,

[/quote]

Just guide me with the above list of Characteristics of Ghulam Ahmad, I am waiting for your reply.

yo_wasim · August 19, 2006, 6:18am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

.

system · August 19, 2006, 9:04am

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

The Quran says to cut off the hands of the thief. On the other hand, there’s a hadith which says that there will not cutting of hands during a famine. And Umar radiAllahuanhu, applied this rule. According to your reasoning, this is not acceptable because it clearly goes against the Quran. The truth is that no one would mind this ruling, because it is emotionally appealing.

Again, I will refer you back to what Abu Bakr radiAllahuanhu did. The delegation from the surroundings of Madina came to tell Abu Bakr that they will not be paying zakah anymore. Everyone said to Abu Bakr that he should accept this from them. Instead Abu Bakr told them that we will fight you. The only reason (that I can think of) as to why Abu Bakr didn’t attack them first was because he had already sent out a large army to face the romans. And this army was sent 3 days after the death of the Prophet salAllahualaihiwasallam. The delegation saw that Madina was weak and decided to attack first.
Something to think about is that why didn’t Abu Bakr just accept their proposal for the time being and why did he send out armies to all of arabia?

That means all crimes that are not mentioned in the Quran should be overlooked too. For example the punishment of drinking alcohol is not in the Quran, but we know that the punishment that was applied was lashing.

NuzululMasih · August 19, 2006, 4:17pm

Re: Ahmadis in Pakistan

Assalamualaikum,

Sherafghan please reply to my response in #69:

"Please be cautious of what you allege. Ahmadiyyat, not Qadianism by name, has evrything to do with Islam, and is Islam in its prestine purity, in comparison to the many deviations that have appeared within the Islam in the latter days.