Ahmadis are Kafir

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
*They are going to your other Muslim brothers and sisters who have little knowledge about Islam and telling them they have the real Islam revealed on Mirza Qadiani but wait doesn't Allah say in Koraan that Islam was completed 1400 years ago and we ought to follow the Islam which Mohammad(saw) bought. They are fooling them with their pretentious actions and misdeeds. *
[/quote]

I totally understand the example that you are trying to convey. And I have understood it from the first time that you posted it.

It seems that you are having trouble believing that I am okay with anyone that wants to go around spreading false information. And I have already explained why I am okay with it.

if you still don't understand the example-what they are actually doing is going into your home and saying I am Muzna. And innocent people in your household believe them... what would be your reaction to that, what if someone does that to you and goes to your home with your name and says im muzna FROM NOW ON.... how would you feel? ] just answer that...

If someone came to my family and suggested that she is me, my family would not blindly believe her. My family would investigate because obviously this person would not behave as me.

And btw, you are addressing someone that has been impersonated several times....hehehee. Some characters believe it's funny to go around in chat rooms and on irc and use my name as a nick to pretend that they are me. Of course they do this to try to ruin my reputation. Does it bother me? No. Because I know that people who want to know and chat with me, will find me. And they will not be fooled by this person's antics. I am confident of that. Now if I can be so confident....and I am a mere mortal....then imagine the faith that I have in Allah.

*If you still don't understand the logic behind this then either you HAVE to back-up the mod(very well known for doing that) or you just don't care. *
[/QUOTE]

You know what's comical about all this Basit? That when I refuse to agree with or be convinced by your arguments, you decide to accuse me of various unrelated things. Like previously you questioned whether or not I am Muslim at all. Now you are suggesting that I am merely supporting the moderator in his stance or that I don't care.

Why can't you just accept that I have an opinion different from yours' and I can back it up?

82

[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
**
If someone came to my family and suggested that she is me, my family would not blindly believe her. My family would investigate because obviously this person would not behave as me.

**
[/quote]

YES!!! They will investigate!!! Investigate on basis of what logic? On basis of FACTS and principle, correct?

Ask questions such as:

How does this Muzna differ from the actual Muzna which blossoms in our home?

What are the characteristics of actual Muzna in comparison to Muzna portraying as you?

What is the your behavior when you are faced with certain situations in everyday life in comparison to the fake Muzna?

Wouldn't they ask questions like that and come to a logical, factual, truthful conclusion after indebth study that Muzna that is usin your name is NOT a real Muzna but a fake, muzna wanna be wanting to ruin your reputation or steal your personality? Sure, they would do it as calmly as possible, but still they will come to that conclusion-on basis of facts, everyday-judgment, and common sense!

Wouldn't you think so?

"I am not playing with a full deck!"

83

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
** YES!!! They will investigate!!! Investigate on basis of what logic? On basis of FACTS and principle, correct?
**
[/quote]

Precisely! And then they would discover on their own which is the correct Muzna.

So there is no need for the real Muzna to jump up and down trying to convince them. They will find the truth because the truth cannot be hidden.

The same applies to Islam. True Islam cannot be tampered with. No matter how much it is misrepresented.

So why jump up and down and say, "They are not Muslims, we are!"? Those folks that want to and are meant to discover the "real Islam" will do so....on their own, via their own research, with their own investigative efforts.

84

As a Muslim its our duty to tell people with little or no knowledge of Islam but are Muslims(have said shahaada(kalima)about Islam and what is the truth.

Here is verse from Koraan:

Let there arise among you those who invite to good, enjoin what is right, and forbid what is evil: They are the ones to attain felicity.
(The Holy Quran, Al-i'Imran, 3:104)

On basis of that verse and many others in Koraan we should make those people aware of Qadiani schemes and plot to spread false, and fabricated Information on Islam that they are following and have joined when they declared that: "I bear witness that there is no deity other than Allah(SWT)
and that Muhammad(SAW) is his servant and Messenger."

Its every Muslims duty.

Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.
(The Holy Quran, Muhammad, 47:32)

"I am not playing with a full deck!"

[This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited September 06, 2001).]

85

Hmmm, I think although the origianl post was about respecting other beliefs, this has now already turned into a religious debate regarding Qadianism.

Now there've been so many of those and we all know that at the end of the day Qadianis/Ahmadies are not muslims. But they have their own faith and we should respect and tolerate them as such.

But what I am shocked by is the level of ignorance displayed by some guppies about the religion of Islam in general, and therefore some absolutely ridiculous remarks regarding Islam made by them during this discussion. I think some grave mistakes made in earlier posts should at least be pointed out. Reading Akif's replies in particular makes one ask, Where did this guy learn religion? Did he even learn it?

[quote]
*It is a well known and widely accepted hadees that speaks of there being a total of 72 sects emanating out of Islam. And according to Prophet SAW, only ONE of those 72 sects will go to jannat. Meaning, the remaining 71 will be on the wrong path. According to ur statement above, all Muslim denominations, organizations, scholars and nations have unanimously declared the Qadiani ( Ahmadi ) movement outside the fold of Islam....so thats one out of 72. How come none of the 'muslim denominations, organizations, scholars and nations' have taken this exercise of theirs a step further? Why are they stuck at 72-1=71? Obviously 70 out of the remaining 71 are kuffaar as well. Why are they stuck in first gear? just wondering
[/quote]
*
First of all you got the hadeeth wrong. It does not say that there will be 71 sects who will be non muslims but only says that there will be those who will be on the wrong path. You can be muslim and still go to hell, as you yourself so ardently point out later.
Secondly, You are saying that only 1 i.e. qadianis have been declared non-muslims so that should leave out 71 but again you are wrong as you assume all 72 sects exist today. Whereas the Prophet(pbuh) spoke for all time uptill Qiyamah. Since his time several fasid groups emerged and were also declared non-muslims. There is no way you can calculate the 72 figure and apply it to existing sects today. Therefore the whole basis of your reasning goes out. Those 2 mistakes totally invalidate this line of thought although there are other mistakes in it aswell.
The point is simple. Islam has a definition, any group that deviates from the right teachings can't simply be declared non-muslim unless they deviate from the basic principles. Whenever that happened Muslim Ummah always acted. Qadianis are nothing new.

Contd...

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 06, 2001).]

86

Secondly,

[quote]
**or maybe none of them has ever heard the hadees regarding the issue of calling someone a kafir. The hadees is divided into 2 sections. i)calling a muslim a kaafir, ii)calling a non-muslim a kaafir. And both of these 'callers' have been extremely disliked by Prophet SAW.

or perhaps they dont remember the incident during the battle of Uhud, where Prophet SAW wished destruction upon 4 'kuffaar', because they had hurt him....and in response to which, Allah SWT sent down the verses that forbade him from doing so, since he didnt know what those 4 'kuffaar' might turn into in the future. And well, 4 months later, those 4 'kuffaar' had accepted Islam and eventually died as Muslims.**
[/quote]

Now thw first part about disliking of calling either Muslims or non-muslims kaffir, assuming that is correct, that imples that "non-muslims" exist by the very nature of your narrative. The value of this therefore is reduced to ZERO when considering the question of qadianis being either muslims or non-muslims.

Now the other narrative,
Another typical example of not having a clue about what you are talking about but still using Ahaadith to argue points whichihave nothing to do with those ahaadith. As always, keeping Husn-e-zan I'll aqssume your narration to be correct....
Now these 4 kuffars you mention, the Prophet(pbuh) was seeking laanat of Allah on them i.e. seeking Punishment. What does this have to do with them being muslims or not being muslims? So remind me why are you quoting this example???
I mean no where does the Command from Allah which according to you is essentially, "you don't know what they might become in future", no where does that suggest that these people weren't non-muslims or kuffar etc. etc. at that time. They became muslims in future, needless to say by repenting and ditching their previous beliefs.

Given all this you still come up with the truly perplexing conclusion of,
"So now you tell me who are we, or who is a 'scholar' to judge someone, if that right was not even granted to Prophet SAW? Are we saying that our current day so-called scholars are better qualified to make judgements compared to Prophet SAW? "
When obviously neither was the Prophet(pbuh) doing that nor was the command from Allah about that.

Not quite sure why Abdul basit replied to this erroneous conclusion by acknowledging your points when it ideally should have been countered.
Contd....

P.S. forgive me for writing in parts but i have a lot to write...

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 06, 2001).]

87

Reading Akif's replies in particular makes one ask, Where did this guy learn religion? Did he even learn it?

Nice manners. I guess you learnt those at the 'Islamic Camp'. Good to see that 'Islamic camps' these days teach you how to judge others faith and religion. So what if this is absolutely contrary to Islam.

Your extended post is worthless, since it talks of the same hate that others have been talking of. However, the first, you missed the point I was making, which was explicitly targeted at judgement..something which muslims are forbidden from doing. And if you do, it constitutes a lesser form of Shirk, since you are doing what is a power that only lies with Allah SWT.

You are saying that only 1 i.e. qadianis have been declared non-muslims so that should leave out 71 but again you are wrong as you assume all 72 sects exist today. Whereas the Prophet(pbuh) spoke for all time uptill Qiyamah.

Can you tell me what makes you so sure Qiyamat is not around the corner? Whats to say Qiyamat wont come tomorrow? or tonite? Do you have knowledge of Qiyamats arrival? If not, then how can you be so sure of there not being 72 sects right now, hence we will have to wait till Qiyamat?

Not only did u miss the most important points in the entire thread, you also missed the message. Noone has the right to call anyone a kaafir. That is a clearly quoted hadeeth. Whether a person is a muslim or a non muslim, you do not have the right to call them a kafir. Prophet SAW disliked all such people. And furthermore, who are you or anyone else to judge someones faith? The right to judge was not even granted to Prophet SAW. By taking that right upon yourself, are you telling me you are in anyway superior to Prophet SAW? Judgement is the sole right of Allah SWT. Period. Anyone who judges other peoples faith is committing shirk by professing to have a power that only Allah SWT has.

88

Thirdly,
Another brilliant point raised is the 'shirk' and since Qadianis don't do shirk we can't call them non-muslims. Well agreed only non-forgiveable sin is Shirk. But that doesn't mean that other sins are forgiven. It only means they CAN be forgiven. You know it and I know it that even non-muslims if they are pious people and do not do shirk can go to heaven. That deosn't make them muslims. All that means is that some non-muslims can go to heaven too. But again I know it and you know it that most of them won't. The forgiveness is not a rule but a luxury granted by the All mighty for all sins except shirk.

[quote]
**Basit, the above hadees that I cited regarding Battle of Uhud, Prophet SAW wished destruction upon 4 kuffaar. And mind you, those kuffaar were ones who were involved in 'Shirk'. Shirk is far worse than someone creating a Prophet after Prophet SAW himself. Shirk is the only sin that is unforgivable. Which means that any other sin, ANY other sin is forgivable.
Now if Prophet SAW was not allowed by Allah SWT to judge the worst sinners of all, 'Mushriks', how can we make a case for ourselves to be judging someone who clearly doesnt fall in that category?

Whatever criteria you are using to judge Qadianis, the entire concept is wrong. It has been clearly stated in the Quran, and it was stated by Prophet SAW, that the only judge is Allah SWT....not prophet SAW, not you, not me, not any scholar.
[/quote]
**
Once again fuzzy arguments, from a point on shirk you jump to the critera for qadianis and say it is not even relevant. Nice way of putting ir-relevant points together to make a false argument.

Bhai meray the point on shirk does not make the criterea for Qadianis ir-relevant.

Every word you say there can be used for the Athiests too. And NOBODY calls an athiest as muslims by even the farthest stretch of imagination. And yes Allah in his mercy can forgive an athiest too. Are you now going to say that athiests are muslims too? because going by the criterea you (intetionaly or unintentionally but u effectively do) describe athiests can be muslims.
Brilliant, isn't it?

The continous barrage about "judgement" and that even the prophet(pbuh) didn't have that right perplexes me. I mean Who exactly is passing judgement here? I am not, Abdul basit is not ,nor is anyone else saying that this or that person is going to hell. We are not passing that sort of judgement. We are only talking about people with certain beliefs being muslims or not, that can't be argued against by using the examples given because the Prphet(pbuh) obviousy conducted dawah among people who were non-mulims so by calling them to Islam he WAS saying that they are not muslims.
Don't mix the two. Bottom line, We are not passing any judgemnets that we can't.

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 06, 2001).]

89

Forthly,

[quote]
*Now lets be equally fair, and call sunnis as sunnis only..shias as shias...wahabis as wahabis....debandis as deobandis. None of them should call thems Muslims. Lets call them whatever they profess to be. We both know that a person cant be two things at the same time. Either you are a sunni OR a muslim...either shia OR muslim...either wahabi OR muslim.....either qadiani OR muslim. Now if you figure out a loophole and prove that sunnis and muslims are the same, or shias and muslims are the same, then what logically stops qadianis and muslims from being the same?
[/quote]
*
This is also a worthless point and badly argued to say the least.
Muslims have a right to defince themselves, now if there are internal difference, with in those limits then we can have groups, and by definition would still be muslims. But when a group breaks that than they are not muslims. It is simple as that. You can argue about WHY qadianis are called non-muslims and WHY shia are not. But you not even doing that, you're arguing with a rule which doesn't have a leg to stand on.

This is linked to your earlier argument about 72 sects etc. , this is a dangerous thing you are saying. Can anyone in the world claim to be a muslim? Are Nation of Islam muslims too? Can someone today stand up and say that he acknowledges all previous Anbia and now he is the new nabi because Allah has told him so and then say he is muslim and his followers should drink cow-urine and have free sex? Will they be called muslims because they believe in one God?
Any sane person will say NO , these people are not muslims.
Infact by your arguments anyone can say any bloody thing and still be muslims. You can do what you like and believe what you like and you are still muslims? Jus t believe God is only one. Because all paths go to God , right?

Is Islam already Hinduism Akif?

90

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
Thirdly,
.....You know it and I know it that even non-muslims if they are pious people and do not do shirk can go to heaven. That deosn't make them muslims. All that means is that some non-muslims can go to heaven too. But again I know it and you know it that most of them won't. ......
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 06, 2001).]
[/quote]

uh oh, bro, can you please tell me where did you get this idea? because I thought non-beleivers stay there for ever... after 'death' being presented in shape of 'lamb' and killed then Allah SWT will say to residents of Hell and Heaven that wherever you are, you shall remain there.

please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

91

Anohter small point, this is a bit of repetition but just wanted to make something clear.

[quote]
*** Backbiting = eating the flesh of ur dead brother
* Miss 1 prayer = 80,000 years in hell
* Give Bribe = End up in hell
* Take Bribe = End up in hell
* Believe in Prophets after Prophet Muhammad SAW = End up in hell

The above sins, all result in horrific consequences. But why does backbiting seem so natural and casual to us? Why does missing one prayer seem normal? Why does giving or taking bribe seem like a necessity of life to us? And finally why, opposed to all of the above, does someone's belief in a prophet after Prophet Muhammad SAW seem so much bigger a sin compared to the above? Specially when all 5 are forgivable sins?

Our priorities are alarmingly screwed up.
[/quote]
**
The answer to that is that it is considered a bigger sin because it IS a bigger sin. That all are so called "forgiveable" is pure non-sense as we all know that ALL sins except one are forgiveable. So respectfully, that is NO yard stick to measure. Because Islam is a religion that believes in the concept of small sins, medium sins and Bigger sins. We all know that.
So in repitition, as I said before Atheism is also a sin but that takes you out of Islam , so do other sins such as the particular one you mentioned.

But our priorities are alarmingly screwed up if we spend less time worrying about ourselves commiting the other sins you mentioned than we do in looking at others, I would agree on that but then THAT is a different discussion altogether.

92

[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
**Secondly,

And face the accusation that I CHANGED THE DARN TOPIC OF THE THREAD?

let me read rest of your replies now…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

“I am not playing with a full deck!”

93

Hey Basit
You quote:
By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of
Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.

I wonder how many helpers he would get?? Cos if his mission is to break tke crosses and pigs of world, he'd a hell of a job in front of him. Can you high light this a little bit more.
Wasalaam

94

Ahmed...I didnt bother to read ur entire posts, but what i found common in all was ur initiating point of "this point is worthless", which, for you, proves every thing. Why even bother to post useless banter to make for lack of a proper argument?

The answer to that is that it is considered a bigger sin because it IS a bigger sin. That all are so called "forgiveable" is pure non-sense as we all know that ALL sins except one are forgiveable. So respectfully, that is NO yard stick to measure. Because Islam is a religion that believes in the concept of small sins, medium sins and Bigger sins. We all know that.

History proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Allah SWT forgave certain extremely bad Muslims on the basis of one minor good deed....and punished very good muslims on the basis of one minor bad deed. Hazrat Umar RA himself was quoted as saying that if it were to be announced that the whole world would go to jannat except for one person, I would fear that person to be me..and if it were announced that the whole world would go to hell except for one person, I would be optimistic it would be me.
So as far as your concept of 'big sin', 'medium sin', 'light sin' and 'diet free sin' is concerned, you can take it to the bank. Fact is, Allah SWT has His own fair way of judging people, as only He knows. If you want to judge someone based on what you see, go ahead..noones stopping you. These days every other sunni shia or wahabi is better than the sahaba of yesteryears. All of them are better qualified to make judgements, better qualified to go to jannat....so fire away. To each his own.

95

Nouman, could you please elaborate a little bit more on what you want me to clarify?

"I am not playing with a full deck!"

96

** Corrections:

The hadith says: The jews and christians will have 72 sects and the muslims will have 73, 72 of which will be on the wrong path. **

The understanding of this hadith given my mohammad (saw) is that the other 72 sects will go to hell.

Also the issue of sects and groups needs to be clarified, because there is a difference. This i will do in a separate thread.

Besides respecting other people's belief (which is what this thread was about), clarification on what makes someone muslim or not muslim is also needed.
This is clearly

97

[quote]
Originally posted by -asim-:
The hadith says: The jews and christians will have 72 sects and the muslims will have 73, 72 of which will be on the wrong path.
[/quote]

The Christians has more than 720 sects by now

98

They do? Why don’t you start with the 720th…and work your way up.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“I am not playing with a full deck!”

99

**
On the other hand, I not only read every word of your replies but also all the 83 above mine, before I bothered to reply. It is really a shame that you can’t extend the same courtesy to me

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif

Akif!! I didn’t just say that your points were base less like you are complaining, but in each case I also gave a detailed explanation and reason as to WHY your points are baseless.
But of course you couldn’t know that, because you obviously didn’t even read my posts!
You lie when u say “which, for you, proves every thing.” I dopn’t think just saying someone’s point is worthless is enough. That is exactly why I explained each and every one of them in detail. YOU on the other hand are doing just that right now.

**
Akif, Akif, Akif, I know all that but in no way does that support your argument.
What you are saying has nothing to do with what you are arguing.

If you had actually read what I said you would have seen that I have already answered this point you made in quite detail.
So you use these examples hap-hazardly without even knowing what they mean and then you complain that questioned where you learnt religion or if at all?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif

Btw there is nothing rude in asking that so don’t try to teach me manners. I do respect you but that doesn’t mean I will let you get away with saying ludicrous stuff about religion.
I didn’t go to any ‘islamic camps’, infact my normal education followed probably the same routes as yourself. That doesn’t matter but your general ignorance in this thread does, are you really Akif?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hoonh.gif

[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 07, 2001).]

100

Im not getting into a ping pong match with you, trying to prove whos ludicrous or whos ridiculous.

About extending courtesys, I usually dont read posts in which someone is personally targeted. If that speaks of lack of courtesy in me, so be it.

As if by design, SubhanAllah, today, the Friday sermon in the masjid was about judging others. And Wallah, the statements that the Imam was making were an almost exact copy of some of the dialogues we have witnessed in this thread in particular, or this forum in general.

"Do not suspect others and their faith"
"One person said to another...you are not a muslim. HOW DARE HE SAY THAT", said the Imam.
"Have you opened the other persons heart and peeked into it? Do you know what is inside his heart? Do you know his intentions?"
"Wallah, this characteristic is exclusive to Allah SWT. Any human being who indulges in judging other humans, muslim OR non-muslim, is committing shirk-e-mukhfi"

Just some of the statements I remembered, mainly because they were so identical to whats been going on here. Anyway....the bottom line as always, and as is said in the Quran, "Either you, or us, are on the right path, or on the path to destruction". Suit yourself.