You are mistaken if you think I was trageting a person in my posts. That's not why I come here. I don't target people, I targe points.
I was targeting points raised ealrier in the thread. They happened to be your points. I only borke my post into pieces because I didn't want to make a very long un-readable post. Hardly my fault if I found more than 1 mistakes in your posts that i wanted to comment on.
But since you are not willing to answer the criticisms I made, I wil assume that you have nothing to say.
There is nothing to be gained really by continously going on about 'judging others', 'judging others' etc, because I do remember saying myslef in one of the posts that you ofcourse didnot read that judging a person is Wrong. So asserting the same thing to me that I said myself is hardly going to impress me. But I also added there that we are not doing that...
God Bless The United States of America, where everyone is free except for the black monkeys who work the tobacco fields.
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I am sorry Salman, I know I am being stupid and missing something here - I'm not certain what your point is in making that sort of statement by using those particular offensive words. There is no difference between that and calling an Arab a "towel head" (which I know many Arabs find offensive), or saying one of the many derogatory words for Pakistanis.
[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited September 07, 2001).]
Such a lengthy and fierce debate,and,still no conclusions reached???The definetion of Islam is simple.Anyone who believes in Allah and Mohammad(p.b.u.h)is muslim.But,we also have to believe that he is the last prophet.If we deny it or try to find any other path than that of Allah and holy prophet(p.b.u.h)than surely we have no right to call ourselves muslims.
It has been repeatedly suggested that only Allah has the right to pass judgements,ie,only Allah can decide who is muslim and who is not.But,has not Allah himself given us the Quran and the sunnah of holy prophet(p.b.u.h)to follow as a clearcut path.Why then should we be looking for any other path than that marked out by Allah????
Guzar Ja Aaqal Say aagay Ke Yeh Nur
Chiragh-e-Rah Hai Manzil Nahi Hai
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahmed:
*There is nothing to be gained really by continously going on about 'judging others', 'judging others' etc, because I do remember saying myslef in one of the posts that you ofcourse didnot read that judging a person is Wrong. So asserting the same thing to me that I said myself is hardly going to impress me. But I also added there that we are not doing that... *
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Impressing you is the last of my worries. The point about 'continually going on about judging others', which you seem to have taken an offense to, is that that is the core point of all this. Once you realize the validity of that point, you will figure out why everything else becomes invalid. Judging is exactly what everyone here is doing. If this is not judgment, then what is? You, not even knowing the state of your own faith or belief, are hell bent on classifying someone elses belief as wrong. Wheres the logic in that, and more importantly, wheres the sense in that? And again, whether you like it or not, as i have said it before, I will drum it again, that judging anyone is a characteristic exclusive to Allah SWT alone. Anyone else who may be casting ahmedies or anyone else as non-muslims by their 'eloquent' deductions, may very well be adopting the characteristics of non-muslims themselves for all they know.
So until my friend, you, or anyone else can prove that they are the perfect ones out there, such debates dont mean anything. If someone were to become a non-muslim just because a tom dick or harry said so, then I dont think there are any muslims in this world, since that label is so conveniently passed around by 'muslims' nowadays.
Mister, I am not judging anyone here, YOU are the one who drew conclusions from arguments which were pretty badly argued and most mis-interpreted.
I only pointed out that whatever you are arguing you may not, by using those. That was the point of my posts, because the implications and consequences of what you said were not ones I could ignore....
Briefly put I only tried to crrect some of the mistakes you made. I thought they were serious... If my eloquence bothered you , i can't do anything about that.
What I am saying is not invalid but whatever you are saying about 'judgement' is invalid. You have yet to confront my arguments with any candid response. That's not what I am concerned about though,
Yaar, just take a step back and read what you said, are athiests muslims by that definition? I will make it simpler for you what do you consider athiests to be?
I repeat I am not judging anyone's beliefs.. but to say what is not right in general is not judgement.
I won't inconvenience you by asking you to provide a candid reponse, Just give me a yes or no, answers to these,
The 'mistakes' that you refer to, are points upon which you personally disagree. A personal level of disagreement doesnt make an argument 'wrong'. However, its your choice as to what you refer it as. I couldnt care less about it.
The reason I didnt respond to your points with a 'candid' response is, like i said earlier, lack of meat in ur arguments, since they seemed to be running in a tunnel, without taking into consideration the broader point of view of this whole thread.
**1.Are athiests Muslims?
Are christians Muslims?
3.Are jews Muslims?
4.Are hindus Muslims?**
These questions are useless and misfit, and u know it. Where and how do they fit into this discussion? And well, just to humor u, I will give u an answer in a way that you will perhaps better understand. I will respond with another set of questions, and yes, that question does answer your above questions. Add the following questions to your list as well.
Are sunnis muslims?
Are shias muslims?
Are wahabis muslims?
Are deobandis muslims?
Are naqshbandis muslims?
and last, but not the least,
Are ahmedies muslims?
And now to answer your final question, Is there such a thing as Non-muslims?
The answer is, yes. All of the above. If ahmedis are non-muslims based on the concept of a incomplete definition, then each and every group listed above falls in the same category. Show me one that fits the mould of 'Islam' any better than another, and I'll give you a zillion arguments against it.
I don't get involved in religion.
But enough is enough.
I personally believe that humans have no right to judge others esp. on the issue of religion.
Allah is the supreme being and he will decide on what and who is right.
All we should do is follow what we think is right.
And Allah will judge.
**
The ‘lack of meat’ and the ‘tunnel’ that you refer to is your personal opinion and a personal level of perception doesnot make what you percieve as right.
This is exactly what you said to me but the only difference however is that I bothered to provide detailed explanations as to WHY you mistakes are mistakes, whereas you refuse to give anything of the sort except that you keep beating about the bush and saying first that you didn’t read my posts than calling my arguments worthless and presumptuously stating that I miss the point without ONCE backing up anything you say with any reasoning.
Besides that you have also yet to give any explanation of the points I criticized.
Once again, when I call something useless and misfit i give a reason, would be good if u did too but than that’s me and you are you.
My questions are valid and you know it.
The question of criterea was raised first of all in this thread by you, not by me or by anyone else. I should leave it that and not give you any explanation as to why I say that and wait for your next post before I repeat the same but No, I will give the explanation because I am me and not you.
You are the one who in a reply earlier raised the question of criterea where by qadianis are jusdged non-muslims. You made several points in support of your argument. All of which I have rebutted.
But yet you persist in your ignorance, so obviously I have to ask YOU what is the criterea? That’s where my questions fit in. because the only criterea YOU are offering is one by which ANYONE on earth even athiests can be muslims.
Brialliant, isn’t it? To prove that Qadianis as muslims you have to admit that athiests are too.
After criticizing , sholay and Abdul basit and once again in the above post talking about incomplete definitions you bring the onus of criterea and definition on to yourself. You by your own line of arguing bring yourself there…
By the way, you also seem to have a lack of comprehension of the questions you are asked, you were not asked who is a non-muslim but that who is one.
YOU are saying that anybody can be muslim, my point is that not everyone can be, So please argue your point and don’t tey to dodge it by arguing mine.
For the reasons stated above, you cannpt shift the questions to me. But I do find it very interesting that FIRST for Qadianis to be muslims , everyone has to be muslims and THEN if qadianis are non muslims then eveyone else is too!
My my, what desperate arguments you people are forced to come up with in any serious discussion.
**
You have yet to show me one argument about ANYTHING
I am getting involved, against my better judgement.
I want one simple question answered.
If muslims are defined by the fact that Mohammad is the last prophet.
How can those who do not believe this be called muslims.
I am not a religious expert, heck i am not even a novice at this.
But could some one answer this bloody question.
the criteria I talked about is the basic premise of this mile long thread, which u have still to grasp. WHO, if anyone, on this earth, has the right to develop a criteria for being a muslim? There are lot of things that render a person a non-muslim, and many of them are found in people that you call Muslims. Sticking to one flimsy definition of 'muslim' and casting labels based on that is politics, nothing else. And Islam, is not politics.
Islam is not a label that you attach to someone who agrees with you, or take away from someone who doesnt agree with you. Its not yours to give and take. You mind your own business, and let others mind their own. You are not going to answer for their sins..however, you will be answerable for each and every minor thing that you say or do. So while you wont have to suffer the punishment for another person who is a 'non-muslim', you will definitely have to pay for you calling another person a non-muslim, who in fact, may not be one in the eyes of Allah SWT. Now dont give me the same sermon of how a muslim is defined. If at all there is a definition, then its meant to be applied to you yourself only. Every person in this world is to apply it to him/herself. You dont walk around labelling others with your definition.
And as for your questions, I feel I answered them well enough. If you cant comprehend the basic premise behind them, I cant do much about it.
But I do find it very interesting that FIRST for Qadianis to be muslims , everyone has to be muslims and THEN if qadianis are non muslims then eveyone else is too!
dont draw ridiculous interpretations merely to flame bait me. You conveniently skipped the meaning behind my statement, and grabbed onto a straw that helped u come up with a totally different meaning to my statement.
As long as we have classifications in Islam, we have people who have deviated from Islam, whether they are sunnis or shias or anyone else. And my point is, if we are going to call Ahmedis as kafir based on our interpretation of their deviation, then we very well can cast sunnis and shias as kafirs based on their deviations as well. Its about being balanced in your approach to all.
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Originally posted by CM: If muslims are defined by the fact that Mohammad is the last prophet.
How can those who do not believe this be called muslims.
[/quote]
CM....muslims are NOT defined by the fact that Muhammad SAW is the last Prophet. Muslims believe that, but that belief is not a definition of a muslim. The only solid definition of a muslim is the belief in the oneness of Allah SWT and His independent nature, meaning no relations. Believing anything opposed to that that is the only sin that is not forgivable.
Everything that is there in Islam apart from that is the infrastructure that makes Islam. Believing in a Prophet after Muhammad SAW is a major sin, but it is forgivable, much like all other sins. If a person is to be labelled a non-muslim based on his refusal of one forgivable sin(i-e no belief in finality of prophethood), then he very well could be labelled a non-muslim based on his refusal of any one of the other millions of aspects of Islam.
When you lie, you are refusing Allahs order. That should make you a non muslim. When you miss prayers, you are refusing Allahs order. That should do it too. The list goes on.
Akif, I know what the basic premise of this thread is and I disagree with it. The fact that the arguments supporting that premise are Humungously flawed justifies my disagreement. What supports my assertion that they are flawed is the fact that they have not been countered....
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Originally posted by Akif: There are lot of things that render a person a non-muslim, and many of them are found in people that you call Muslims.
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This i agree with. Many of those things ARE found in apprently muslim people. NO "I" don't call them muslims but that's just a tiny correction.
But I am very glad that you finally agree that there are many things that render a person a non-muslim.
**
[quote]
Sticking to one flimsy definition of 'muslim' and casting labels based on that is politics, nothing else. And Islam, is not politics. **
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This I disagree with. It is not flimsy and it is not about politics.
Again I am very glad that you fianlly agree with me. That there are many things which can render a person non-muslim was my point.
[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
** CM....muslims are NOT defined by the fact that Muhammad SAW is the last Prophet. Muslims believe that, but that belief is not a definition of a muslim. The only solid definition of a muslim is the belief in the oneness of Allah SWT and His independent nature, meaning no relations. Believing anything opposed to that that is the only sin that is not forgivable.
**
[/quote]
Akif our first Kalma i.e Kalma Tauheed is the base of our religion and this is what basically the definiton of a true muslim, whoever believes in this Kalma is a muslim and whoever does not, is not, its as simple as that and its cleary said that there in no other God but Allah and Muhammad (SAW) is HIS last Prophet!
*Muhammad____is the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the Prophets.
[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
** The only solid definition of a muslim is the belief in the oneness of Allah SWT and His independent nature, meaning no relations. Believing anything opposed to that that is the only sin that is not forgivable. **
[/quote]
Finally, you provide a definition. Well according to this definition Athiests are not muslims as they can't believe in one God as they don't believe in any but then there are instances where athiest were forgiven, only mushriks never are. There goes your theory of "forgivable sins"...
So one of your theories disproves another one of your own.
I call it theory because i don't agree with that definition. But that doesn't matter.
I was never in my posts saying that I will prove Qadianis to be non-muslims or muslims but too adivse based on solid reasoning to avoid "errenous" theories. And here I refer to your forgivable sins theory. That's what I tried to do in my earlier posts. To say that fine, argue your points if you want to but don't put silly theries to suuport them, use something candid. Your definition of a muslim above is something candid.
What is more disturbing? That some people call shias non-muslim or that some people call wahabis as that? IS someone insecure?
Why are the ones being called non-muslim by someone in this scenario so insecure? Did the have an incomplete but percievably complete religious training, or are they psychologically easily dominated?
Akif our first Kalma i.e Kalma Tauheed is the base of our religion and this is what basically the definiton of a true muslim
Mindless. I agree that the kalima is a definition. However, the kalima itself does NOT mention the finality of Prophethood. It only mentions that Muhammad SAW is Allahs Prophet.
And regarding the verse in the Quran, in Surah Ahzaab, it says, Muhammad SAW is the seal of Prophets. true. But the Holy Quran contains 114 Suras, that are filled with orders, commandments, and statements from Allah SWT. If we are to pick the above ayat from Surah Ahzab, and say that whoever denies this ayat is a non-muslim, then shouldnt we say the same for deniers of any other ayat as well?
IS someone insecure?
o grow up Ahmed. what kind of a rubbish is that.
If u want to be declared the winner in a war of words, u can have it. But dont put forth utterly ridiculous and non-relavent stuff in an attempt to bait me into childish flaming war.
.. this thread like most of here in religion section ahve turned into fierce hatred and name calling and mud slinging.. nahmadi is trying to discuss bout persecution of Ahmadis in pakistan and logic behind it.. personally i dont appreciate these killings and hate against any religion.. people from other religions were converted by logic and kind heartedness towards Islam.. and its a fact that the only religion towards which people are converting today are Islam..
I have some Ahmadi friends back home and out of curiosity i read their literature and one book that was autobiography of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by a well known and learned Zafar Ali Khan.. and I read it without bias and was not convinced bout Ahmadis point of views.. man is always in a learning process and mostly we get one sided and biased opinions bout other faiths.. so by persecution no one can achieve anything but it can counter effect.. so i wont hate any one merely by the persons faith .. may be that person see the right path which i believe is and convert ..
they say.. religion has taught us enough to hate but not enough to love each other.. and thats the tragedy.
Bhai jo post aap ke liye hay uss ka jawab dain. yeh wali post to general post thi, iss ka koi jawab post karnay ki main aap say umeed nahi rakh raha tha. Laikin aap nay day diya to bhi theek.
Because I don’t believe in war of words, i wasn’t even trying to flame you. I just asked a question. Aap ko personal jawab dainay ki to koi zaroorat bhi nahi thi. So no question of a flaming war.
Magar jawab day diya to bhi theek…
Ab asli posts ka bhi jawab dain na.
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 08, 2001).]
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