haey Chann ji, meiN marr javaaN kacha guRR kha kay tuhadi shaeeriyaaN tooN!
and on a further note, the kind of status many sects give to sufis, peers, aalims etc is akin to that of a prophet. Hell I dared travel to Lahore around the time of Data ganj bakhs urs. The crowd at the data darbar is so humongous that it belies reality. And just what are all those people doing? Open shirk....since they are praying to a dead man....and in addition to that, they are giving him the status of a prophet....hazrat maulana falana timkana. I dont think Daa Ganj Bakhsh RA ever meant for his grave to become such an object of worship.
Where are all the vigilantes during the urs? Why not burn down data darbar, since it openly propagates and promotes Shirk?
Man, once again, our priorities are alarmingly screwed up.
[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
haey Chann ji, meiN marr javaaN
[/quote]
kadon?
Akif, we are all sinners, big sins, minor sins…we do it all.
You have to understand that when Prophet Mohammad(saw) is saying that there will be no prophet after me - then on what logic, what basis do we take words of Qadianis as truthful and trustworthiness?
If you leave them to be what ever they preach and what ever they call that preaching as TRUE Islam and they are the ones who are true Muslims. Scholars of Islam have proven every statement of Mirza Qadian wrong with authentic ahaadeeths and Koraanic verses.
Now, case about shias, wahabis, and sunnis:
The major differences there is not of beliefs system but interpretation of certain ahaadeeths or school of thought but basic, major system around which we all revolve is same-unlike Qadianis. When they say Mirza Qadiani was a prophet and his teachings are correct, what they are doing is they are declaring Mohammad(saw) as liar on what ever he said in authentic haadiths-simply they don’t believe in him-if they did we wouldnt be here debating.
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You MUST have to follow Mohammad, believe in him and not deny anything that Mohammad(saw) said, following it is not the issue-Qadianis deny it and uphold the teachings of Mirza Instead.
Insaniyaat, you will have to go back 5 or 6 months and see the shia threads. You posted as a shia and later when qadiani threads opened you started there as a Qadiani. We have some other witnesses who saw you doing that…lets see if they can show up here and tell us.
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“I am not playing with a full deck!”
Maybe Insaaniat just likes to play with you folks
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Akif, beware… I think pretty soon, some of them will also declare you as kaffir and qadiani.
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The major differences there is not of beliefs system but interpretation of certain ahaadeeths
Come to think of it, the difference between you and qadianis is also in the wordings, translation and interpretation of certain ayat and ahadeeth. Just as sunnis have so many saints and aulia, qadianis got Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who they say is a messiah (or something similar). As far as I know, Qadianis also believe in just one god and they also believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad (Salelah o Alihay Wa’alaihee Wasallam).
The point is not who is right and who is wrong. The simple point is, that while you have every right to be a good muslim and follow islam as much as you wish and call yourself as a muslim, similarly you can not take away these basic rights from someone else. Comparatively speaking the muslims in the world are far fewer than the combined population of christians, hindus, aethists, budhists, and jews. Do you try and stamp out all of them? Do you hate all of them? Just as you admit that christians and budhists have a right to live in this world and practice their faith, the same respect and freedom of belief should be given to everyone.
If they call themselves muslim, let Allah be the judge on the day of qiyamat. Why are you assuming that position? Did Allah made you privy as to who will be admitted into jannat and who will be pushed into hell-fire, because as far as I know this determination be made by Allah alone on the day of qiayamat? Are you the guardian of the gates of paradise and hell, that you need to inform the people in this world, who will go where?
Why don’t you concentrate on your own life and try to commit less sins (assuming you commit any) and make yourself a model muslim? Bring others to the fold of Islam by your words, your actions and your personality. Spread knowledge in a polite and intelligent manner.
Trying to act like a thaikedaar of paradise and hell and assuming the role of Allah by prescribing punishments for those who don’t agree with you or trying to enforce your ideas as to who should or should not be allowed to call themselves by any name or title smacks of a lot of arrogance. Can you show me any true man of Allah (wali, aulia, saint) who spread islam by constantly picking up fights with the non-believers and declaring them food for hell-fire?
Basit, you claimed that I was “disgusing” as shia. Please provide proof and any witnesses you have. Why should I trawel through the poasts for some basless accusation. I will wait for your proof.
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“Away from Eyes…Close to Heart”
I agree with you guys, we need to constantly seek guidence from God almight. Before I go further I must tell you guys I am an Ahmadi and I have suggested this several times before and doing it again, instead of calling each other Kafir let pray to God almighty for guidence. I think and I believe that this is our right to ask Allah who is right and who is wrong. So, if you want to get the right answer, please and I repeat please don't go to those anti Ahmadi sites and get those false and wrong information about ahmadiyyat, if you need to know what ahmadiyyat is, you need to read Ahmadi's literature. It's like if somebody wants to learn about Islam, the right path is to learn it from Islamic Literature not from some Un_Islamic sites.
God Bless you all
Love For All Hatered for None.
Dearest Pristine Bhai!!
What makes you so sure that you, dear sir, will be spared? Itnee Kushfahmi? ;~)
And I didn't know johnd bhai could speak so seriously!
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
*Dearest Pristine Bhai!!
*
[/quote]
behen not bhai...
What do you believe you are? A Muslim? Well, my personal opinion on this is that who ever follows KORAAN, and teachings of Muhammad(saw) is a Muslim-who ever does not follow and does not fall in that criterium is not a Muslim
When you say Kalma you are a muslim. No one has right to judge other muslims. Din me koi zabardasti nahi ( Quran )
I don’t think it forms any base, but you (Insaaniat) sided with Shia bros here, perhaps that gave an impression of yours as ‘shia’, but at one point you clarified to me that you are not Shia.
For this reason, I am asking people to go to thread “tell what you beleive in”, so we would know about each other’s faith while discussing issues. I’d appreciate if you could got there and disclose your beleif as well.
Thanks.
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
You have to understand that when Prophet Mohammad(saw) is saying that there will be no prophet after me - then on what logic, what basis do we take words of Qadian is as truthful and trustworthiness?
Basit...noone is asking anyone to grant acceptance to Qadianis as muslims, or deny them the identity of Islam. Its none of our business. Do you think Islam is so weak that it needs the Pakistani government to pass a ruling declaring qadianis as non-muslims, lest Ahmediism takes over Islam? Allah SWT doesnt need our asisstance for Islam's defence. He only requires our personal beliefs to be pure. Negative politics always backfires. Islam cannot be proven right by proving Ahmediism wrong. Islam is proven right by proving Islam right.
Scholars of Islam have proven every statement of Mirza Qadian wrong with authentic ahaadeeths and Koraanic verses.
Again Basit, Shias have 'proven' all sunni ahadees as wrong...and sunni scholars have 'proven' all shia ahadees as wrong. When we talk of 'scholars of Islam', which faction are we talking about?
*Now, case about shias, wahabis, and sunnis:
The major differences there is not of beliefs system but interpretation of certain ahaadeeths or school of thought but basic, major system around which we all revolve is same-unlike Qadianis. *
Sunnis believe that shias consider their Imams to be superior to all Prophets. Shias believe sunnis give too much weight to Khulafa-e-raashideen and other sahaba.
Heres the low down on the two major sects, sunnis and shias.
1. Sunnis, whenever they talk of following Islam, they mention what Imam Abu Hanifa says, or what Imam Malik says, or what Imam Shaafi says.
2. Shias, whenever they talk of Islam, they refer to the teachings of their Imams.
Now all these sects give so much weight to the word of their imams/khalifas. My question is: Is the belief in the finality of Prophet SAW limited to 'a belief'? Is it like a button you get to wear if you carry this belief? Or is it supposed to encompass our entire lives? Are we doing justice to the finality of Prophet Muhammad SAW by simply stating that hes the final prophet and not following his examples?
Belief in the oneness of Allah SWT and finality of Prophet SAW comes with a responsibility...that of its implementation via our actions. If the belief is merely limited to our tongue and not our actions, then Im afraid its useless. And it makes as guilty of the same as what we accuse qadianis of.
[quote]
Originally posted by johnd:
*....So, if you want to get the right answer, please and I repeat please don't go to those anti Ahmadi sites and get those false and wrong information about ahmadiyyat, if you need to know what ahmadiyyat is, you need to read Ahmadi's literature. ...... *
[/quote]
can you provide links to "Ahmedi sites which will "actually display" the books like "Roohaani khazayn" ???
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
I have tried to get hold of the volumes of Rohani Khazain my self, but its been out of print. If I get some information on this I will let you know.
Mean while, please consult with Sholay, as he has a copy of it.
For the other books, please consider this link
Changez,
taking a side may not form someone’s belief’s. It is possible that I may have sided Shia’s in some discussion, but it does not mean that I am SHIA. Similarly if you sided ahmdies in some discussion does not mean you are ahmadi.right?
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“Away from Eyes…Close to Heart”
I completely understand what you are saying. And I still contend that that is fine with me. I don’t believe that Islam needs us to defend it. It is the only true path and it will remain accurate and unpolluted with or without us interfering.
Okay…so now let’s question my faith because I refuse to accept your theories. Sheesh. So what am I gonna be called this time? Qadiani? Wahabi? Shia? Let’s just settle for kafir this time, shall we?
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[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited September 05, 2001).]
Muzna, oh dear!
Look, its not theory. Its bare logic that you fail to understand. What is the source of Islam that main stream Muslims follow?
- Koraan
- Authentic Ahaadeeth Books
Now, Mohammad(saw) himself has said on several occasions that: 1. Follow Koraan and 2. Follow my example(found in ahadeeth books). That is what he said to people of his era-they were Muslims-and we will never have as good Muslims as they were, correct?
If there was to come an other Prophet-he had the authority to say-follow koraan and so and so Prophet that will come after me. Or Follow Koraan and my example until a so and so prophet comes or emerges among you…am I correct or not?
But that did not happen. Authentic ahaadeeth prove that there will be no prophet after Mohammad(saw), Koraan proves that there will be no prophet after Mohammad(saw).
On what basis should be let them scorn Islam and Muslim, on what basis should we let them call themselves Muslims when their whole basic belief and what ever they are obedient to is contradictory to the Muslims at the times of Mohammad(saw), teachings of Mohammad(saw)[his example…], koraan.
You said you have no problem with them calling themselves Muslims, right? Dear, think about the example I gave you earlier. They are going to your other Muslim brothers and sisters who have little knowledge about Islam and telling them they have the real Islam revealed on Mirza Qadiani but wait doesn’t Allah say in Koraan that Islam was completed 1400 years ago and we ought to follow the Islam which Mohammad(saw) bought. They are fooling them with their pretentious actions and misdeeds.
[if you still don’t understand the example-what they are actually doing is going into your home and saying I am Muzna. And innocent people in your household believe them… what would be your reaction to that, what if someone does that to you and goes to your home with your name and says im muzna FROM NOW ON… how would you feel? ] just answer that…
Now, If you believe in those authentic ahaadeeth, and Koraan - Do you think Allah and Mohammad(saw) lied to Muslims of that era and in between(1400+ years) that there will be no prophet but suddenly, we have this Mirza Qadiani who thinks Islam is obeying Allah and Government of Britain?
If you still don’t understand the logic behind this then either you HAVE to back-up the mod(very well known for doing that) or you just don’t care. Which is fine, you have your opinion and I have mine and we both should be happy about that.
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“I am not playing with a full deck!”
[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
*Which is fine, you have your opinion and I have mine and we both should be happy about that. *
[/quote]
I'm glad you finally came to that conclusion. You cannot force your opinion on others neither can you make people think a certain way. You can state your opinion and listen to those of others, calmly, politely & with respect. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with them, you must respect each person's right to believe whatever it is they wish to believe, just as they must also respect your beliefs. There's a verse in surah al Muzzammil to the same effect.
'Tolerate patiently what the unbelievers say and part from them in a polite manner.'
(73:10)
Yes. The reason I said that to her is because I didn’ want her to feel that i was ‘imposing’ what ever I was saying on to her. She gave that tune that said, hey I feel like you are imposing your opinion on me… so just to clarify that.
Islam teaches you to respect others, but at the same time it says defend your self when others try to hurt you with what ever means possible!
As you read my earlier replies, Qadianis are hurting Islam and what being a Muslim means and what it meant to Mohammad(saw) and his companions. I am defending my beliefs, my religion againt their and British government’s evil, and pretentious plot to destroy Islam from within.
According to the well known, authentic islamic principles and Ahaadeeths it is safe to conclude that Mirza Qadiani was a Impostor, a liar, a product of British Government and NOT a prophet, messiah or any other personality he hoped to be.
Who ever disagrees with that is denying those ahaadeeths of Mohammad(saw) and thus suggesting that Mohammad(saw) was a liar, which is a great sin all by it self muslim or no muslim.
Some references regarding everything before I go:
Mohammad as last messenger in Koraan:
**O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets. And God is Aware of everything. **
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:40)
From authentic Ahaadeeths:
I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me.
(Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Muatta’)
You (Hazrat Ali) are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses (pbuh). But no Apostle will come after me.
(Bukhari, Muslim
Musnad recorded a similar hadith ending in ‘Behold there is no prophethood after me.’)
If ever there arose a person from among my people who would hold communion with God, it would be none else but 'Umar bin Khattab.
(Bukhari , Muslim, Tirmidhi)
**** It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.****
(The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:36)
From the last sermon of the Prophet(saw):
**People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. **
Imam Mehdi in authentic Ahaadeeths:
The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)
Qadianis are ruled by British ever since, ruling arabs is far from hope.
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Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)
A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.
(Sahih Muslim)
Imam Mehdi and Jesus will pray together, Mirza Qadiani never set his foot in holy land of ISLAM and MUSLIMS.
Promised Messiah:
And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.
(The Holy Quran, An-Nisa, 4:159)
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
(Quran, Az-Zukhuruf, 43:61)
From Ahaadeeths:
By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)
The Hour will not be established until the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizyah tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 43, No. 656)
I swear by Him in Whose hands is my life that soon there will descend among you Hazrat Isa Ibn-e-Mariam as a Just Ruler; so (he) will break the ‘cross’, kill swine and prohibit war!
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, No. 668, Book of Prophets, P. 490)
We see war, crime, injustice EVERYWHERE!!! I guess Mirza Qadiani did not do what he was suppose to.
By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the Son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizyah (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): – “And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4:159)
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, No. 657; Fateh-ul Bari, Vol. 7, P. 302)
Christians and Jews have yet to see that…hmmmmm!!!
How will you be when the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel.
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, No. 658; Fateh-ul Bari, Vol. 7, P. 304-305)
Jesus, son of Mary, will descend near the white minaret towards the east of Damascus.
(Tabarani)
Could someone tell me where Mirza Qadiani was BORN not descent but BORN??? Any Qadianis want to tackle the question?
A Muslim is person who believes and recites this:
“I bear witness that there is no deity other than Allah(SWT)
and that Muhammad(SAW) is his servant and Messenger.”
NOT>>“I bear witness that there is no deity other than Allah(SWT)
and that Mirza Qadiani(SAW) is his servant and Messenger.”
That is not the standard set by Allah or his messenger as far as calling your self a MUSLIM is concerned.
Lastly:
Quote:
"Doctrines of Islam Feared the Most
The enemies of Allah(SWT), wishing to enslave the humanity to a relentless pursuit of the transient allures of this life, have always been very weary of two Islamic doctrines:
The Islamic belief in Allah(SWT)'s limitless mercy, knowledge, and power that propels every Muslim to shape his/her life for the sole purpose of achieving closeness with Allah(SWT) in the hereafter. This means that a Muslim strives to live in accordance with the instructions of Allah(SWT) and is willing to sacrifice his/her time, talent, property and very life in the cause of Islam and humanity (Jihad).
The oneness of the Muslim Ummah, based in the common belief in Allah(SWT), Muhammad(SAW), and the Holy Quran, is reinforced through the rituals that all Muslims - regardless of national origin, socio-economic class, race, gender, and age - routinely follow."
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“I am not playing with a full deck!”