Ahmadis are Kafir

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Foul language was used against us(you should know NYA better), then we lost the ‘respect’ you wanted us to have for you and now you guys are babbling it out here in this thread.

Point of my replies was the example I gave Muzna, go up and read. Put your name instead of hers and see where you fit in. (on first page)

Here let me help you:

Muzna, just to give you an example:

Lets say if some woman dresses up like you and goes to your home and says I am Muzna from now on-what would YOU do and what would people in your household do? laugh? get mad? Perhaps.
<<<

You guys are not Muslims, so don’t go around claiming as one. You people are non-muslims and simply, Qadianis.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Depending on what kind of Kalima you guys have, that would make things much easier.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

“I am not playing with a full deck!”

[This message has been edited by Abdul Basit (edited September 04, 2001).]

42

All the participent in this debate please tell me are you real Muslim? or Muslim by birth?
Are you original or converted?
If converted thenwhat was your religion prior to convertion?

43

Abdul Basit,

**
[quote]
Foul language was used against us(you should know NYA better), then we lost the 'respect' you wanted us to have for you and now you guys are babbling it out here in this thread.**
[/quote]

I think NYA can claim the same! Even though I never used any foul language I can point quiet a few places where others lost it when replying to my mail. Does that give me the license to take my 'revenge'?

And where is the moral values of forgivness and being patient when delt with foul mouth? Isn't it part of the Islam?

[quote]
Point of my replies was the example I gave Muzna, go up and read. Put your name instead of hers and see where you fit in. (on first page)

Here let me help you:

Muzna, just to give you an example:

Lets say if some woman dresses up like you and goes to your home and says I am Muzna from now on-what would YOU do and what would people in your household do? laugh? get mad? Perhaps.
<<<

You guys are not Muslims, so don't go around claiming as one. You people are non-muslims and simply, Qadianis.

Depending on what kind of Kalima you guys have, that would make things much easier.

[/quote]

There is a phrase in Urdu:

Mullah ki dour Masjid tak!

I think it suits best here! :)

Rephrasing the argument again does not make it a valid one!

44

Dear People,

Lets get to the point:

NYAhmadi!

What your mum did to you for the mistake you did long ago, I am sure you learnt your lesson and every one should be given these kind of lessons to respect other people's believes. I agree with you that we should respect you and your believes.

The question however is been raised that either we can call Ahmadis = Muslim, we need to look at the definition of a Muslim.

Now, if you believe in One Allah and Mohammed PBUH as his LAST PROPHET then you are Muslim and if you add anything to it then unfortunatly you are NOT MUSLIM.

I admit that the way people practice their rights towards other religon in Pakistan is not the best way but we need to understand that if you attack on others or vise versa, the result is never good. What I am trying to say is that:

A Muslim believes in One Allah & Mohammed PBUH as the last Prophet. Anyone who believes in the above + some one else is not Muslim.

45

Now some of you have raised some valid concerns, in particular about my use of foul language. If that bothers you, go to hell. That’s how I communicate. If you want to talk back to me with the same titles, do so by all means, but what I am saying here is that respecting “differences” among one another is a lot more mature and superior deed than respecting “individuals”. If I have issues with how Basit interprets certain points, I would never show disrespect towards his faith (Islam), but I won’t hesitate to call him an idiot. Now sue me!

Naikbibi, tusi kithay? Thanks for your kind words.

46

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
** Muzna, so do you think its better for Qadianis as Qadianis to represent themselves as Qadianis when they go around preaching or do you think they should just call and hide under Sunnis when they go around preaching to poor, majboor, and ignorant people that they are Muslims...
**
[/quote]

I think they can go around preaching whatever they want to preach, saying they are whatever they want to say they are. If a person, majboor and poverty stricken or not, is meant to find the true way, he/she will. By Allah's guidance he/she will become a momin. That is my belief.

And if you have some other point to make, do so....otherwise, stop saying the same thing in different words. As someone has already advised, re-phrasing the same message a thousand ways will not make it any more valid.

I'm out.

47

[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
** I think they can go around preaching whatever they want to preach, saying they are whatever they want to say they are. If a person, majboor and poverty stricken or not, is meant to find the true way, he/she will. By Allah's guidance he/she will become a momin. That is my belief.

And if you have some other point to make, do so....otherwise, stop saying the same thing in different words. As someone has already advised, re-phrasing the same message a thousand ways will not make it any more valid.

I'm out.

**
[/quote]

But dear, whatever they are preaching, they call it ISLAM. When that preaching totally contradicts KORAAN and Ahaadeeths. Do you understand this?

I am sure it doesn't make the argument valid enough for you, but if you as a 'muslim' can't understand what is Islam and what is not, on what basis are you calling your self Muslim. Islam is Koraan and teachings of MOhammad(saw) but their preaching is fake translation of Koraan and ahaadeeth of Mirza Qadiani.

I have posted, so did other Muslims on this forum ahaadeeths, koraanic verses to show that Qadiani way is totally contradictory to what/how Islam was revealed and completed.

I am trying to get this point through you. Maybe, you don't care about what is islam and all you care about is their out-cries when they are the ones mocking you as a 'muslim'-

NyQadiani, don't you worry. I wouldn't hasitate to call you biggest S.O.B around here-who started crying like a B***** when challenged with facts. Chill, you tried to slap, but instead felt a ultey hath ki! Should learn your lesson by now.

Qadianis have hurt Islam in a major way-just like the british wanted. Same with other cults that they created when they came to sub-continent, Ismaelis, and other innovation oriented cults. And I would never hasitate to destroy anything that a Qadiani religion presents as Islam and is totally fake and contradictory to Koraan and Sunnath of Mohammad(saw).

You call what you preach with name of Qadiani, Ahmadiyaat-dont call it Islam when it is not Islam-Islam was completed 1400 years ago and when Allah completes something he means its completed and there is no need for more addition or subtraction.

im out!

"I am not playing with a full deck!"

48

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
** Maybe they haven't created their own prophets yet? Or maybe, its in this extreme circumstances where one gathers all 'known' muslims to declare a fatwa on something which is contradictory to Koraan and Tradition of Muhammad as non-Muslim?
**
[/quote]

Or maybe because the 'scholars' know that if they start reducing the list further, then undoubtedly they will have to chuck out a few of themselves as kaafirs as well.

or maybe none of them has ever heard the hadees regarding the issue of calling someone a kafir. The hadees is divided into 2 sections. i)calling a muslim a kaafir, ii)calling a non-muslim a kaafir. And both of these 'callers' have been extremely disliked by Prophet SAW.

or perhaps they dont remember the incident during the battle of Uhud, where Prophet SAW wished destruction upon 4 'kuffaar', because they had hurt him....and in response to which, Allah SWT sent down the verses that forbade him from doing so, since he didnt know what those 4 'kuffaar' might turn into in the future. And well, 4 months later, those 4 'kuffaar' had accepted Islam and eventually died as Muslims.

So now you tell me who are we, or who is a 'scholar' to judge someone, if that right was not even granted to Prophet SAW? Are we saying that our current day so-called scholars are better qualified to make judgements compared to Prophet SAW?

49

Akif, your points acknowledged, but:

That was at the time of Mohammad(saw) when he was alive and there was time for amendment and additions and subtractions in religion.

I don't know what faith you ascribe your self to but Qadiani incident is 1400 years after the demise of Prophet Mohammad(saw), and when he was alive he said that there will be no prophets after him. So, do you take Mohammad(saw)'s words or take Qadianis word and consider them Muslims and not do jihad against them for hurting Islam and its holy personality Mohammad and his teachings-the man who was the PERFECT muslim there ever was, and will never be like him again ever?

Question for all:

Mohammad or Mirza Qadiani - whose teaching reflect that he was a better Muslim, a true, Muslim?

We are not judging, as such but judging on basis of teachings and trustworthiness and validity.

"I am not playing with a full deck!"

50

and when he was alive he said that there will be no prophets after him.

Basit, the above hadees that I cited regarding Battle of Uhud, Prophet SAW wished destruction upon 4 kuffaar. And mind you, those kuffaar were ones who were involved in 'Shirk'. Shirk is far worse than someone creating a Prophet after Prophet SAW himself. Shirk is the only sin that is unforgivable. Which means that any other sin, ANY other sin is forgivable.
Now if Prophet SAW was not allowed by Allah SWT to judge the worst sinners of all, 'Mushriks', how can we make a case for ourselves to be judging someone who clearly doesnt fall in that category?

Whatever criteria you are using to judge Qadianis, the entire concept is wrong. It has been clearly stated in the Quran, and it was stated by Prophet SAW, that the only judge is Allah SWT....not prophet SAW, not you, not me, not any scholar.

What beliefs I ascribe to is irrelevant. What matters is what Allah SWT says about such instances, and from what Ive read, the command is pretty clear...no judgements allowed for humans, period.

And the question you asked is irrelevant as well. Are we supposed to make our decisions based on the answer to this question? Well of course Prophet SAW was the one who got the message of Islam first hand...and above all, he was Allah SWTs most revered Prophet, so obviously he was a perfect Muslim. There is no question about it. But that still does not give us the license to caste anyone as kaafir or whatever. Thats up to Allah SWT.

There is a reason as to why Prophet SAW said, "Our actions are based upon our intentions". And the knowledge of intentions lies with the person involved, and Allah SWT alone. So no third party has the knowledge, and more importantly, the right to judge him/them.

[This message has been edited by Akif (edited September 05, 2001).]

51

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

very well said. I personally think that anyone who beleives in ‘beleif’ mentioned in Quran 02:285 is a Muslim. If he beleives in some so-called prophet/messiah/mahdi, Allah SWT will judge him.

One other example set by our Prophet PBUH is regarding the ‘munafiqeen’, he didn’t persecute/kill them, if Allah SWT wished Prophet PBUH to kill/persecute them he would have definitely done it, and we all know how much those munafiqeen conspired against Islam and Prophet PBUH. Am I wrong in interpreting this sunnah? Please tell me. Thanks.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

52

Well put Akif and thanks for pointing this out. This is indeed quite a complex issue of labelling a certain cult/sect as kaafir.

On one side the proofs are clear enough to label them as non-muslims and on the other hand its also prescribed to stay away from labelling someone as KAAFIR especially if they say the Kalma. Allah(SWT) knows whats in everyones hearts.

To summ it up : Leave it up to Allah(SWT) to judge as our job is not to judge but try to implement Islam into our lives. Getting into this business of labelling someone or sect as kaafir takes one away from dhikr of Allah(SWT) and could also void our prayers and charities. What Mirza confessed is between him and Allah and no one else.

I know at some points I have been guilty of labelling and I apologize to NYA and others for causing them grief.

WaSalaam

53

Thank you.

You have to understand that I am not pushing on labeling Qadianis with “kafirs” but as Qadianis.
Fold of Islam is Koraan and Sunnah of Mohammad(saw), correct? Fold of ISLAM is not ahaadeeths of Mirza Qadiani and ‘fake translation’ of koraan.

In last sermon that Prophet Mohammad(saw) gave, he said - **"People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. **

So, you being on right path or not rests on whether you follow Koran and example of Mohammad… now are Qadianis on koraan and example of mohammad(saw), I think not.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“I am not playing with a full deck!”

54

What I don't understand is that, Why are Ahmadis are so narrow minded? I read a statement below by 'ahmadjee' which presents the kind of mentality he has.

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
p.s: So maybe I am little bored trying to argue with the Mullah's of the Religion Forum.
[/quote]

Now what I don't understand is that ahmadjee, if you can't talk about religion then don't visit this site and if you think you know much about your religion then learn to be patient, you know.....!!!!!

55

[quote]

*What I don't understand is that, Why are Ahmadis are so narrow minded? *
[/quote]

First this is news to me! :)

Secondly, when you say something like that then usually it is followed by a proof! But your quote seemed very irralivant to your statement!

[quote]

Now what I don't understand is that ahmadjee, if you can't talk about religion then don't visit this site and if you think you know much about your religion then learn to be patient, you know.....!!!!!
[/quote]

I am sorry if my comments offended you. Is it the word "Mullah" something of a grief, or is the phrase 'tired of arguing' that hurt your feelings? Please point it out and I will try to refrain from using such in future.

Now, let me ask Akif Bhai if he is tired or if he is thrilled? :)

Can I dare ask the same question from Muzna Baji?

56

Actually I prefer being called Kafir. It has kinda nice ring to it, don't ya think?

57

[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
Actually I prefer being called Kafir. It has kinda nice ring to it, don't ya think?
[/quote]

I agree. I can't wait for Madonna's Kafir inspired video.

58

NYAhmadi, I don't think your parents were trying to teach you anything..they knew early on you are a lost cause. They were probably trying to save their own butt from the crowd of chosen ones.

Roman, rabb ikk ghunjhaldaar bujharat rabb ikk gorakh dhandha. paich eissde kholan lagga kafir ho jaye banda.

59

Thats fair enough.
Now lets be equally fair, and call sunnis as sunnis only..shias as shias…wahabis as wahabis…debandis as deobandis. None of them should call thems Muslims. Lets call them whatever they profess to be. We both know that a person cant be two things at the same time. Either you are a sunni OR a muslim…either shia OR muslim…either wahabi OR muslim…either qadiani OR muslim. Now if you figure out a loophole and prove that sunnis and muslims are the same, or shias and muslims are the same, then what logically stops qadianis and muslims from being the same?

**In last sermon that Prophet Mohammad(saw) gave, he said - **"People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. **

Basit, with due respect, sunnis and shias have yet to unite on this above statement that is attributed to the Prophet SAW. According to sunnis, the two things are Quran and Sunnah. According to shias, the two things are Quran and Ahl-e-bait.

**So, you being on right path or not rests on whether you follow Koran and example of Mohammad… now are Qadianis on koraan and example of mohammad(saw), I think not.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

**

Lets indulge in this statement for a moment. Qadianis have deviated from one aspect, which is finality of Prophethood. From what Ive read, this sin is forgivable, as I mentioned in my previous post. Now lets talk about non-qadianis. Sunnis/wahabis/shias. Can you safely say that they follow each and every tenet of Islam in its entirety? No. They are all sinners, big time. But they all live with the belief that eventually their sins will be forgiven and they will enter jannat. Now, Qadianis are sinners as well. So on the same token, can we not assume that their sins will be forgiven one day too, and they too will enter jannat one day? The only sin that is unforgivable is ‘Shirk’. Qadianis dont commit that, right?

  • Backbiting = eating the flesh of ur dead brother
  • Miss 1 prayer = 80,000 years in hell
  • Give Bribe = End up in hell
  • Take Bribe = End up in hell
  • Believe in Prophets after Prophet Muhammad SAW = End up in hell

The above sins, all result in horrific consequences. But why does backbiting seem so natural and casual to us? Why does missing one prayer seem normal? Why does giving or taking bribe seem like a necessity of life to us? And finally why, opposed to all of the above, does someone’s belief in a prophet after Prophet Muhammad SAW seem so much bigger a sin compared to the above? Specially when all 5 are forgivable sins?

Our priorities are alarmingly screwed up.

60

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
**
Insaniyaat here, I have seen him acting(disquising) him/her self as shia here on this forum. Recently when this Qadiani talk errupted, we see him/her representing Qadianis. And many other stories in Pakistan where Qadianis have fooled others thinking that they are sunnis, but later you find out they were Qadianis.
**
[/quote]

I was away, and on returning today, I found this thread and reading thread, I come across this accusation from basit that I am "disguising" myself as SHIA.

Can Bast please provide a evidence of such actvity where I was pretending to be a Shia??

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"