Ahle bait

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Ahle bait

LOL you are as usual comparing Mohammad with yourself and your daddy, a prophet does not do things at random, a prophet only does whatever is willed by Allah. when allah says take your women and nafs with you, prophet wouldn’t think like ‘ok, I’ll take with me whoever’s house comes first on my way to mubahilla’ NO
someone more important had to be chosen to glorify Islam and trimpuh over christianity, and they were only ahle bayt. (please note that he could take one of his wives with him as well)

You say his other daughters were married, so was Fatima.

Mubahilla was not a usual get-together, some serious cursing was going to take place and someone was going to be doomed, don’t trivialize the importance of that event.

~?~ Your Favorite user @ Gupshup ~?~
22

Re: Ahle bait

syed mohsin saab
why would prophet do any kind of favoritism within his family.prophet taught us(ummah)masawat(equality).It is just that we havent read much about the whole family of prophet

Thats why i wanted to know about the family and still i havent found out anyone who has some knowledge about them or atleast provided me some authentic links and obviously not wikipedia

Anyway this is not a shia bashing or a sunni bashing thread.the whole Ummah follow the prohet and atleast we are united on this one.

23

Re: Ahle bait

Well, according to the Quran and Sunnah the Holy Prophet :saw: was as much a human as me or my father…We don’t venerate him to a point where he becomes superhuman…Only difference between me, my father and the Holy Prophet :saw: was that he :saw: was divinely inspired and me and my father weren’t…

Second, Prophets (pbut) never indulge in cursing anyone and neither do they propose to indulge in arguments with those who curse…Cursing anyone is the highest level of ignorance and Prophets (pbut) shun it…Why? Because the Quran instructs the Holy Prophet :saw: to stay away form the ignorants (7:199)…Do you think the Holy Prophet :saw: would settle down to a debate with ignorants?

And do you seriously believe that priests would resort to cursing and abuses when they are representing their beliefs? I know of only one religion in my knowledge whose priests and followers indulge in abuses and cursing…

Third, the Holy Prophet :saw: may have been a Prophet but he was also human…He liked certain foods, certain smells, certain things which he personally liked even wives which he liked and didn’t like so much…Not his entire movements were divinely guided…He had a very rich and fulfilling personal life as well in which he lived…

Fourth, can you say for sure that all his daughters were married and settled in Madina? They may have been settled somewhere else far away…

Fifth, it was a Mubahila, a face to face debate, not a war…It is in war that the Prophet :saw: used to take his wives…This Mubahila probably just happened outside the outskirts of Madina for a day or maybe two…(I couldn;t find out how long it went on) but knowing the Holy Prophet :saw:, he didn’t argue much…With him you either believed or went your way…He (saw) was a conveyor, not a convertor…

Sixth, we see no Ahadith about whether the Mubahila was a triumph or not or whether the priests converted or not…As usual, you are ascribing way to much honorifics to a certain incident which seems to support your views…

There are incidents far far more important than a debate between priests and the Holy Prophet (saw)…

But, I am not an arguer…You are free to believe that the other daughters were ‘non-existent’ if that somehow makes you a better Muslim or has any effect on the afterlife…For me, the Holy Prophet (saw)'s daughters are part of his family and deserve the same respect as Bibi Fatimah (razi)…They too were Ahlul-Bayt as much as Bibi Fatimah (razi)…

Your excluding them from the Holy Prophet (saw)'s family would neither diminish or exalt their status nor yours nor mine…

And this is where I stand…

24

Re: Ahle bait

I think lajawab you should study the background of the event that was going on. I appreciate your long posts, but they are totally irrelevant and seem to be a classic case of giving your own spin to things to suit your purpose, despite not knowing the hard facts.. Please read the following ayah revealed at the time:

You can bet your bottom dollar this was not some feast or party they were going to.

Here is the whole event, the tradition is recorded in both shia and sunni sources:

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/mubahila.html

~?~ Your Favorite user @ Gupshup ~?~
25

Re: Ahle bait

so did he commit sins ? I know your answer is ‘yes’ but you wouldn’t say so openly.

At last, it last it turns out that you are a die-hard wahabi and I am a moderate muslim, Mohammad is important to me, your daddy is not.

we stand on two different extremes, sorry can’t argue any further with you although I have answers for each and every point you make (some of which I already provided).

26

Re: Ahle bait

[QUOTE]
why would prophet do any kind of favoritism within his family.prophet taught us(ummah)masawat(equality).It is just that we havent read much about the whole family of prophet
[/QUOTE]

Syedpk that's what I am saying, Mohammad (saw) had no other daughters, putting aside historical evidence, our logic tells us that Mohammad can't be unjust to his daughters. but according to lajawab, mohammad had likes and dislikes so of course he could be prejudiced toward the persons he disliked, for after all he was as common as his daddy. it's now up to you whichever logic you choose.

27

Re: Ahle bait

thanks for the referrence, I was just going to post it.and BTW ‘Mubahila’ literally means cursing each other and asking Allah to send his curse on the liar.

So all he is doing is sprouting his own biased opinion and yet contiously claiming to have his faith backed by Quran sigh

28

Re: Ahle bait

^^

You seem to think that I am comparing my father to the Holy Prophet :saw:…I am not and neither did I do that anyplace…

When we use analogous examples in arguments, it does not in any way mean a sort of comparison…When Hz. Ali :razi: was given the title of ‘Sher-e-Khuda’, it did not mean that he was being compared to an animal…It was an analogous example to describe the attribute of Hz. Ali :razi:…

But it is not your fault that you cannot differentiate between a comparison and an analogy…In your quest to villify me or my father you seem to have forgotten even the basics of a simple argument…And you wish to argue with me?

And no, Wahabbis do not consider the Holy Prophet :saw: as someone capable of sinning…Wahabbiyat holds the belief that all Prophets (pbut) were Maasoomeen, meaning they are incapable of sinning…You didn’t know this and you wish to argue with me?

You have a lot of misconceptions and in your arguments you tend to become quite personal…Discussing any argument in which to get your point across requires that you keep a level head and refrain from ad hominem attacks…That’ll give your arguments weight and validity…

Ma Mooli: And what did I write in my long post that contradicts what you posted in the link except the fact that as a Sunni I don’t consider that event a very important one? And I certainly don’t see any exchange of ‘cursing going on’ as Mohsin sahib claims…

29

Re: Ahle bait

why is it that u hate the family and companions of Prophet Muhammad (saw) so much (except for a select few)????
do u think admiring one or two out of the thousands of them will benefit u????
how will u explain ur hatred for the rest, not just companions but even the family of Muhammad (saw)????

30

Re: Ahle bait

Sister Ma Mooli :flower2: :flower1:

You have raised a very valid point regarding the absence of Prophet’s (saw) other daughters at the time of Mubahila.

Since they were NOT present under the mantle you have safely concluded that they were really ‘non existant’ or in other words ‘figment of vivid Sunni imagination’.

We all know that the event of Mubahila took place in the year 10 Hejirah.

Now to rest your concerns as to why the other daughters of Rasool Allah (saw) were not present.

Ready for a real surprise!

THE THREE DAUGHTERS OF RASOOL ALLAH (saw) HAD DIED BY THAT TIME. :bummer:

Below I am giving you the years of their death (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them).

**Lady Zainab (May Allah (swt) be pleased with her) died in the eighth year of the Islamic calendar, i.e. two years before the Prophet (saw).

Lady Ruqayyah (May Allah (swt) be pleased with her) died at the time when the Muslims fought the battle of Badr.

Lady Umm Qulthum (May Allah (swt) be pleased with her) died in the ninth year of the Islamic calendar, about eighteen months before the Prophet (saw).**

I think this should make matters even more clear why the Prophet (saw) did not bring his other daughters under the mantle..

Now to your reason that they were absent from the Mubahila “most likely ‘non existant’”

Funny you say that, I had given you reference from Shia source earlier.

Quoted below for you;

Are you going to deny it? Mind you it is from Shia source and Allama Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi is considered a tower of knowlegde among the Shia.

Don’t tell that he got it wrong.

In the following post I have another wonderful surprise for you.

31

Re: Ahle bait

Astaghfirullah we do not hate the family and companions of our prophet.

@Ibn Sadique the book you are quoting from is a collection of traditions, authentic as well as unauthentic, the purpose of allama Majlasi's books was to compile as many tradition as possible that were floating around at that time. so anything written in them can not be taken as his words.

[QUOTE]
Ma Mooli: And what did I write in my long post that contradicts what you posted in the link except the fact that as a Sunni I don't consider that event a very important one? And I certainly don't see any exchange of 'cursing going on' as Mohsin sahib claims...
[/quote]

You need to read about that event with open mind, I did not say the cursing actually took place rather Mohammad had invited them (because Allah commanded him to) to hold mubahila (the meaning of which I already told you), which the priests of Najran refrained from because they were awe-striken when Mohammad along with Ahle bayt walked towards their camp,and their leader cried out ""by God, I am seeing such faces that if they were to pray to God to move the mountain, God Almighty would move the mountain for them."

32

Re: Ahle bait

Sister Ma Mooli - Now for the surprise I promised you.

A great Shia scholar Abu Ali al Fadl ibn al Hasan ibn al Fadl at Tabarsi (c. 468/1076 - 548/1154) has written a book titled: Beacons of Light : Muhammad, the Prophet, and Fatimah, the Radiant

English translation Published by: World Organization For Islamic Services
Tehran, Iran
First Edition 1986/1406

I am taking the extraction from Chapter 5

The Chapter 5

**His Wives, Children and Relatives **

The Wives Of The Apostle Of Allah And His Children

The Prophet married Khadijah, and took her into his home the next day. The Messenger of Allah took no other wife until she died. She lived with him for twenty-four years and one month. Her bride gift was twelve and a half ounces of precious metal. The Prophet fixed this amount as the bride gift for all his other wives.

The first child Khadijah bore was Abdullah son of Muhammad, whose epithets were at -Tayyib (the Good or Wholesome) and at -Tahir (the Pure). She also gave birth to another son called al-Qasim. It is also reported that al-Qasim was the eldest son, and the Prophet's firstborn, as he was known as Abu 'l-Qasim (father of al-Qasim). Some traditionists have mistakenly assumed that the Prophet had four sons from Khadijah: al-Qasim, Abdullah, at-Tayyib and at-Tahir.

The truth is that he had from her two sons and four daughters: Zaynab, Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthum and Fatimah.

As for Zaynab, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, she was married to Abu 'l-As ibn Rabi' ibn Abdi 'l-Uzza ibn Abd Shams ibn Abd Manaf. Zaynab bore him a daughter called Umamah, whom Ali ibn Abi Talib married after Fatimah’s death in accordance with her own will. When Ali was martyred, Umamah was married to al-Mughirah ibn Nawfal ibn al-Harith ibn Abdi 'l-Muttalib, in whose house she died. The mother of Abu 'l-As was Halah, daughter of Khuwaylid; thus Khadijah was Abu 'l-As’s aunt. Zaynab died in Medina in the seventh year of the hijrah.

As for Ruqayyah, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, she was married to Utbah son of Abu Lahab, but he divorced her before the marriage was consummated. Moreover, he ill-treated her. Thus the Prophet prayed: "O Allah send against Utbah a dog (that is, a beast of prey) from among your dogs! " A lion did in fact pick him out from among his Companions.

Ruqayyah was then married to Uthman ibn Affan in Medina, for whom she bore Abdullah, who died in infancy. A cock picked at his eyes, and the child fell ill and died. Ruqayyah died in Medina at the time of the Battle of Badr. Uthman stayed behind in Medina to bury her; thus he was prevented from taking part in the battle.

Ruqayyah had previously accompanied Uthman when he migrated to Abyssinia. Uthman also married Umm Kulthum after the death of her sister Ruqayyah. She too died with him. The Prophet’s daughter Fatimah will be discussed in a special chapter devoted to her alone.

Sister Ma Mooli I have delibrately avoided giving you any reference from Sunni sources. And have given you only Shia references. That too from great Shia scholars.

Are you going to refute them too?

The above book can be accessed from the following link:

http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/

Importantly now do you agree that the Prophet’s other daughter are not really ‘non existant’.

Sorry about using a lot of colour in my posts.

33

Re: Ahle bait

brother ibn-e-sadique, i say it many a times, and i repeat, when one says a lie, he covers it by saying many more....
when u falsely associate specialities to some members, and r questioned why others do not deserve the same, and u dont come up with any logical answer, what do u do????
u cook up another tale, there was no other child....

34

Re: Ahle bait

I will say just one thing, as usual. I dont go with details to avoid to waste the time. I say one thing and keep it.

**All his wives, his decendents including daughters and sons are his family. His wives are like our mothers and he is like our father. But not like real parents, this is to show that wives are his family too. It is written in Holy Quran. No argument on this one.

**Salam.

35

Re: Ahle bait

^ itni si baat log samajh jayein to rona kis baat ka hai....

36

Re: Ahle bait

Jo na samjahi unki qismat. Lekin kehna farz tha, woh chuka diya.

37

Re: Ahle bait

So you mean to say that allama Majlasi just collected “that was floating around” and did not bother to verify anything. Then why don’t you call him a collector instead of giving him the honorific title of Allama?

Masha’Allah! So we need likes of you to tell us this is ok and that is not

Are you going to claim that great Shia Shia scholar Abu Ali al Fadl ibn al Hasan ibn al Fadl at Tabarsi got it wrong too in the following book of his.

Beacons of Light : Muhammad, the Prophet, and Fatimah, the Radiant

http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/ see chapter 5

It is hoisted on the Net by a Shia site

Guess they got it wrong too.

It is so true brother. In my experience Shia are very quick to ‘rubbish’ any references from their books which go against their common held beliefs.

38

Re: Ahle bait

**Syed Mohsin ** Around 14.30 GMT while checking whose online I noticed that you were ‘reading’ this thread. I have now provided you with ample proofs from your own sources that Prophet (saw) had three other daughters desides Hz. Fatimah (ra).

I have provided you Shia scholar Abu Ali al Fadl ibn al Hasan ibn al Fadl at Tabarsi’s statement that:

The truth is that he had from her two sons and four daughters: Zaynab, Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthum and Fatimah.

It would have been a nice courtesy on your part to acknowledge that the Prophet (saw) had four REAL daughters. This is proved from both Shia and of course Sunni source.

I understand with your sectarian bias it would be really hard you to swallow “The truth is that he had from her two sons and four daughters: Zaynab, Ruqayyah, Umm Kulthum and Fatimah.”

Your logic in the quoted statement is rather flawed. Indeed it is a fact that Prophet (saw) was most just among his children and showed no favouritism to any on his own self.

It was not he who chose the High status of Lady Fatimah (ra) but Allah (saw).

The Special love that Prophet (saw) for her was due to the Par excellence Status and not due to any misplaced favouritism on the part of Prophet (saw). He is far from this trivial acts.

Let’s hear what you have to say.

**Sister Ma Mooli ** :flower2: :flower1: - I waiting for you too to acknowledge the reason why the ‘other daughters’ of Prophet (saw) were unable to attend the Mubahila.

The link in my post no. 32 http://www.al-islam.org/beacons/ confirms that they had died much earlier thus unavailable to attend the Mubahila. The article confirms the dates I had given you earlier of the year of their death.

39

Re: Ahle bait

Well amongst many, refer to the points below:

1) the feast
2) light hearted atmopshere
3) No cursing
4) belittling a siginificant event

Baisically all your points which contradict my post and the ayah i posted.

[quote]
why is it that u hate the family and companions of Prophet Muhammad (saw) so much (except for a select few)????
do u think admiring one or two out of the thousands of them will benefit u????
how will u explain ur hatred for the rest, not just companions but even the family of Muhammad (saw)????
[/quote]

I think your confused somewhat. Love for the panjatan does not automatically = hate or disregard for everyone else. I dont think thats a very rational thought process to have. I also think it is downright disrespectful and degrading to the Ahl, by not recognising and accepting the merits, that Allah (swt) gave these people, through the Quran and many time was indicated throughout the prophets lifetime by the Prophet himself. Now if we choose to ignore that, then its a major flaw on our part.

bro Ibn Sadique: :-) How's it going?

It is a long standing tradition of shia aalims to collect weak and authentic ahadith in their books. Hence why they are not sahih books and i think that is what Syed Mohsin is pointing to. A record of it in a book of Allama Majlisi does not mean it is authentic.

Secondly, I have seen the link for allama tabrasi and no i am not going to rubbish his claims. He is an aalim and is within his right to make such claims. However, and it is a big however, his ideas are not the be all and end all. We have to look at the bigger picture. Whilst we generally agree the Prophet (saw)'s sons passed away early on, the number and existance of the daughters is debatable and may require more research.

Some aalim state that Zainab and ruqqayah were the daughters of Bibi Khadija's sister, Hala, who passed away, and hence it was upto Bibi Khadija and the Prophet to bring them up. Others state they were from Bibi Khadija's previous marriage, and a few also like alama tabrasi state they were actual daughters of the Prophet himself, bibi Fatima being the youngest. However, the general consensus from amongst the majority of shia aalims, is that bibi Fatima (as) was the only daughter. Now if down the years, due to further research, it is established by the majority aalims, that indeed there were other daughters, then so be it. It does not take anything away from our beliefs in any way or from Bibi Fatima herself. The aim at the end of it all is to establish the facts.

Thirdly; the point that we were originally discussing was the ayah of mubahilah. Now what i want to know is, there were no other daughter, either cuz they passed away or because they didnt exist in the first place, there were other men folks, women folks, and grand children around at the time. Of course they were all family, but when the mubahila occured, it was these five people chosen out of everyone, when ayah taheer was revealed, it was these five people again, at ghadeer at khaiber at hijrat, this was made clear again and again.

People say we love and respect the Ahl etc, yet again and again, these very people downplay and dismiss the significant and telling event surrounding these people, with utmost and flimsiest of excuse, be it mubahila, ghadir, dawat e zule Sheera, the event sounding Ayah tatheer etc. Sunni and Shia literature are abound with references to the importance of such people, but bhai, if we say we have high regard for them, and then go on to belittle and twist these events each time, then i must say we have a funny of showing our regards and love for the Ahlul Bayt.

40

Re: Ahle bait

good post ma mooli

apparently bro sadiq doesnt know much about shia hadith books by Kulaini, Majlisi etc..they themselves have said in their books that they just compiled all the hadiths that they could get..its upto our scholers to figure out which hadith is acurate and which is weak..Ayutullah Khoie was the master of ilm e rijal..i believe his book on ilm e rijal still hasnt been translated into english