The, discussion in the previous post, has prompted me to float this thread.
The inference derived was the hadeeth are not 100% percent guaranteed.
Though we know most of the rulings are derived from Quran and Hadeeth.
Now should we completely ignore the Hadeeth, because the seal of proof whether they are saheeh, hasan, daeef differs amongst the scholars. Then should our yardstick be only the Quran, because of lack of authenticity in the Hadeeth.
I want to have some healthy discussion regarding this topic from the Quran and Hadeeth(Science of Hadeeth, would be a good idea)
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
If a hadis contradicts the Quran, we cannot accept it no matter what.
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
do you have an example of a saheeh hadith which contradicts the Quran, and that there's no explanation for that contradicition?
cause when the Prophet made mistakes, he was corrected by Allah like in Surah Abasa, and Surah Tahrim and there are other places as well
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
Thank you for starting this thread wasim. I hope that this could be a good discussion and that people can keep personal feelngs, insults and flame baits out of here.
I would be the first one to admit, I am here seekign knowledge and robably have more questions than answers.
wasim to your point about accepting or rejecting hadeeth.
1)if a hadeeth is contrary to what is in quran, i would say that it is incorrect and should not be followed
2)if a hadeeth is supporting what is said in quran, then it is most likely correct. There is still a chance that while it is in agreement, that some of the words or specifics may have been changed inadvertently or maliciously along the way.
3)if there is a hadeeth that does not negate what is in Quran but gives you additional information that is not in quran, that is a big grey area, snce it is not in conflict, it would appear t be authentic, but if it is providing new information, how does one really know that the information being provided is correct and that the hadeeth is correct. One can rely on the due diligence done by the compilors, but aside from that there is no further confirmation
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
I hope you guys realize what you are saying. If a saheeh hadith goes against the Quran, and there's no explanation for it then it means that the Prophet made mistakes. Then how can we be 100% sure that he didn't make mistakes in transmitting Quran to us (Aouzobillah).
*Sa'd ibn Hisham says that I asked ‘Aisha (Prophet's wife –may Allah be pleased with her), “Tell me about the character of the Prophet –peace be upon him.” She said, “His character was the Qur'an.” *(Musnad Ahmad, Hadith no. 24139)
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
1- I did not say saheeh hadeeth, i was speaking about hadeeth in general. You may have missed it or maybe I was not very clear. Hope this clears it up
#2- If a hadeeth is contrary to Quran, its not because the prophet made mistake, but that either it is invented, or somewhere in the 7 step transission to the compilers, it got corrupted intentionally or unintentionally
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
This topics has been discussed in details (at least twice). I collected some important points from it and fwd it to friends. I will post 'em here , once i get home.
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
^ thanks, it would be very helpful
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
The very reason why weak hadith exist is because of the reason I gave and also because of compilation errors. It is scholars who have determined the status of various hadith. Though they were obviously much more learned then us, they are still humans like us.
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
In my openion only reliable hadees is the one that is common between shias and sunnies both, else all is junk
If hadees was so important, why don't we have books compiled by Rasul SAW or Khulafa.
sects were made first, then hadis books were compiled in light of the differences, to strengthen the them further.
we see art of narrating hadees getting strong while Islamic empire had lost the path of Khalafat e rashida. (although tose khulafa still saw them more rashid than first four, and so did the compilers of hadees)
the fact that all authentic aima of hadees were sunni, proves that they were loyal to the govt, and needed to consolidate it by somehow.
In Arabs, exageration is everyday art.
I was travelling with my Arab driver in Ramadi, and he recited an extempore qasidah for me, that was very flaterring. then he asked me to pay him some money for that.....I had to.
as a matter of fact, Hadees in islam is the most abused thing to harm itself.
It took ~250 years to come out the first Hadees book.
for that Imam bukhari had to pick and chose 7000 hadees out of a million out there.
a commont statistics 101 course can teach you how reliable that can be.
still there are bunch of variables that come into play. Sahih,Hasan, Zaeef, fabricated, etc with no confirmed list and are open to abuse the facts.
I have seen cases where a very respected scholar is calling a Hadees Sahih in one debate with refrence of a dozen of Rajal books and in another debate he proves it zaeef based on another dozen of tahqeeqaat from other Aimatul hadees. why? just to serve their own sect.
In fact hardliner molvies are serving themselves to divide muslims, while playing with the loopholes they have invented and designed in ilmul Hadees.
I feel pity for those who try to reseach hadees to find "hidden codes".
instead you need to do statistical analysis instead of data mining on them to figure out who wanted to divide the ummat and to harm the religion.
In my openion only reliable hadees is the one that is common between shias and sunnies both, else all is junk
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
1- I did not say saheeh hadeeth, i was speaking about hadeeth in general. You may have missed it or maybe I was not very clear. Hope this clears it up
2- If a hadeeth is contrary to Quran, its not because the prophet made mistake, but that either it is invented, or somewhere in the 7 step transission to the compilers, it got corrupted intentionally or unintentionally
i know you didn't say saheeh, but there's absolutely no reason for us to look at the ahadith classified as mawdu'
and if a hadith is da'if then again scholars only look at da'if ahadith if there's absolutely no other alternative
the fact that a hadith goes against the Quran would mean that it is fabricated, hence it can't be a hadith of Muhammad salAllahualaihiwasallam
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
How did weak hadith come to exist in the first place?
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
one criteria that makes a hadith da'if is if the character of one of the narrators is doubtful
for example if one narrator is found to have told just one lie in his whole life then the hadith automatically goes into the category of da'if
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
that's just messed up
If hadees was so important, why don't we have books compiled by Rasul SAW or Khulafa.
Because arabs were an oral society.
we see art of narrating hadees getting strong while Islamic empire had lost the path of Khalafat e rashida. (although tose khulafa still saw them more rashid than first four, and so did the compilers of hadees)
what?
Imam Malik compiled a book of hadith and to my understanding so did Imam Abu Hanifah (this one is not very popular). Imam Abu Hanifah died in prison, and Imam Malik was punished by the Khalifah for issuing a fatwa that the Khalifah didn't like.
the fact that all authentic aima of hadees were sunni, proves that they were loyal to the govt, and needed to consolidate it by somehow.
Imam Ahmad who also compiled a book of Hadith was imprisoned by the government of his time.
In Arabs, exageration is everyday art. I was travelling with my Arab driver in Ramadi, and he recited an extempore qasidah for me, that was very flaterring. then he asked me to pay him some money for that.....I had to.
as a matter of fact, Hadees in islam is the most abused thing to harm itself.
This is why scholars of hadith classified ahadith into categories like saheeh, hasan, da'if, mawdu'.
In my openion only reliable hadees is the one that is common between shias and sunnies both, else all is junk
like i said this is just a messed up criteria
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
One lie that ppl know of. only Allah knows the reality of people. masquerading as something while reality is something else is something people have ben doing for centuries.
It is very tricky to vouch for someone’s charater or truthfulness or honesty especially for ppl who were around decades after the prophets and the sahabas passing
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
sher diff topic but I am intrigued, why were the compilers thrown in prison?
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
The Khalifah wanted to appoint Imam Abu Hanifa as a Qadi, but he refused and so Imam Abu Hanifa was imprisoned.
And Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal held the view that Quran is not something created, and he refused to make a public statement that Quran is created and so he was imprisoned. This in itself is a big discussion.
There are similar instances with other scholars like ibn Taymiyyah was also imprisoned with his students ibn Qayyim and ibn Kathir and others for saying something that the government didn't like.
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
Most importantly we should also get to know what are Qudsi hadeeth or 40 Qudsi hadeeth of Nawawi, i am not putting it up here.
Secondly, there was a certain criteria when the hadeeth had to be jotted down, amongst them is the one written by brother sherafghan.
Let me add some more points to it, first is the sanad thats the chain of narrations, should reach unto Prophet May peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him, all the narrators were muhaddith. The critical point was put by Imam Bukhari that if one narrates the hadeeth then he had to physically had been spoken or present with the narrator.
Then we have sadr e zabt, thats the memory of that particular Mohaddith, who with the chain of transmission was not corrupted it remains the same. Its authenticity was at times identified, by the other set of narrators.
More importantly scholars dont just look at the Chain of narrators, infact Imam Bukhari is also written the biography of this narrators. This was acclaimed by the scholars of that time.
Thats how Mohaddith can identify any particular hadeeth and describe it as saheeh, hasan and da'eef
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
It is very tricky to vouch for someone's charater or truthfulness or honesty especially for ppl who were around decades after the prophets and the sahabas passing
you'll have to talk to a scholar of hadith as to how the character of a narrator was evaluated, i don't know
but the obvious thing is that like Oscar mentioned, people used to fabricate interesting stories and called them ahadith in order to get money
Re: Ahadeeth: Accept or Reject
The same issue was with Imam Bukhari the king of that time did ask him to teach his children, and he said no, if they are interested then let them come over. Then he was deported from his place.
More importantly I would like toadd a point here, if we look at the history every believer is gone through more hardship compared to others
Start from the Prophets, then we have sahaba karam and then most believers.
But truth triumphs