Re: Age difference in marriage
However, I cannot understand what is Farwah's point.
lahore clearly we speak different languages. i was a bit taken byt he fact that i thought we may have been in agreement, but i have decided...i really dont care anymore. i think we see things very very differently. which is fine, it takes all kinds of ppl to make this world as colorful as it is
Re: Age difference in marriage
i am all for letting everyone do as the please!!! i am all about freedom of choice, so lets not use those words to twist things... like repubicans do!!
i understand people should be allowed to do as they choose! hey if women want to marry someone who is thier fathers age ...its thier issue!!!
what i am contesting is where...a lot of pakistani women dont really have a choice. I mean we all say they do, ofcourse a niqa, a marriage is not acceptable by islamic laws unless the girl agress so there is supposed choice...even if it is just rhetorical!
i am taking odds with social pressure which makes this choice really not all that free for most women!!! you are incredibly misguided if you think women would like! to marry older men! i mean there are few exceptions..for whatever odd reason..and hey i agree its thier choice..but i would bet that the vast majority of women would rather a younegr more compatible male! rearely would a 24 yr old really want to be with a 42 yr old! u know!!! but in our society that snot even considered odd...its like oh yea this guy is great for u!!! i am just saying that is somewhat odd....! and i think older men take advantage of the fact that our society is this way ..that there is this social stigma to women not marrying young...and older - even divorced men instead of opting to marry divorced owmen they are more compatible with...ot to go to pakistan and marry an 18/ 22 yr old instead! i am just saying...these guys prey on women! u can be in denial and say it doesnt hapen!
but the fact is...it does!!! older men do prey on younger women in our society b/c its allowed and accepted and the owmen have to live with it!
so if we are gonna talk freedom of choice! well then lets truly want that for both genders!!! and not just be okay with the facade, sham of a freedom that we have given our women!!
I want women to marry when they want, to have the same choice as men! to not have the social pressures that they do...i.e. forget your life goals u should marry! b/c thats what u need to do! i want women in our soceity to feel like they can afford to go and study archealogy go on to do digs all over the world! make amazing hs=istoric finds! i want our women to happily pursue medicine and then meet the man of their dreams! i dont want our women to feel like education is a burden b/c the price they pay is to become suddenly unmarriagable!
if men can marry 18 yr olds at 30! women should be allowed to as well (ofcourse the fact that we are wise enough not to opt ofr that is another thing) but it should not be odd! if men can wait to marry until they are 32, then women should be allowed to as well!! and the fact is arshad! women are not allowed due to social pressure right now, the luxuries that u have to be a man to afford! and that is not!!! certainly not to me by any means! freedom of choice!
Re: Age difference in marriage
and to all the women out there reading this post! just recognize....we are the a little more then half the population of the world, and if recent med school, buss. school and law school statists are any indication, we are quite capable and intelligent!
i am not saying, we dont need men, we do...we need them! i m saying we need to respect ourselves not sell ourselves short! u do not have to marry a guy twice your age -5!!! infact thoug it may seem fine now..it will only hurt later on! when u realize how incompatible you are...and how little decision making power u have in your relationship and with your kids!!
I see women waiting on guys to ask tehm to marry! it should not be like that...they should not have such privileges when we do not!
most guys i see who become docotrs sudenly think they own the world that every women is dropping anddying to marry them! when women become doctors its the other way around!
Re: Age difference in marriage
Ah women we dont not have to sell ourselves short and marry someone we know we are too good for! we don not have to loose our gairut and dress in little clothes to empower ourselves, we dont have to give up our dreams for those of the men we marry, we do not have to follow them in their footsteps wen we can afford to make our own paths.
It is our right, nay our obligation, as young women today, for the sake of our daughters and sisters, that we demand nothing short of equality!!!!
Re: Age difference in marriage
AW! this is so cute.... u thin its sick that a 20 yr old girl is with an 18 yr old...but u think a 10 yr difference is okay. i am guessing u mean u mean its okay if a guy is up to 10 yrs older!! so its okay for a 20 yr old to be with a 30 yr old! but gross if the 20 yr old is with an 18 yr old!
yea...when i said cute... i meant retarded!
Oh! and the reason why boys are "immature" is b/c our society babies..which infact only hurts them...hence the reason why studies show, and so do statistics, that guys do much worse then girls in classrooms!
but hey if u want a society with oppressed women and retarded guys...right on! and dumb does not equal to cute!
Re: Age difference in marriage
what i m taking odds with is..something that u made of as well...social presure on women, to marry early. this notion that they expire.....it is very much a part of our society! and i think it has something to do with the fact that men are allowed to marry younger women...so as the pool of women grows for men as they get older, it becomes smaller for women as they get older..b/c women can only marry older! and men can marry younger!
i think if women start marrying younger! i am not saying that age should be the only factor one should consider...but if women start to put that on thier list of positive (i.e. guy younger then me) and start to put guy much older then me as a negative.... i am not saying those things should be exclusive. ofcourse sometimes u dont choose who u fall in love with, or sometimes other good things about he guy are so over-whelming that age is irrelevant! but what i am saying just to break cultural stereo-types if women started demanding that the guy they marry not be older, infact be younger! i can garuntee that within one generation we will have a women's rights oriented culture where women will be able to do the same things as men ine life...where parents will not think twice (and i know and have seen parents do this) about sending their daughters for higher education b/c they are afraid they will have less suitors!! i am just saying i see how things are find and dandy for u as a male, our culture is not fair to the women!
i dont hink we need to compare ourselves to western culture, nor do we need to compete or follow in thier footsteps. We can make our own new path!
i am only trying to make you understand! i agree no doubt, when in love, and in a truly progressive society age would be irrelevant, and i hope tha tone day truly it will. but for now its like...affirmative action if you will! ideally color of your skin should not matter, but when we know that society is discriminatory (against black ppl), then color of the skin to benefit a vulnerable minority (black) whose rights are violated is okay. i.e. reverse discrimination to level the playing field is okay, infact necessary!! u need to make sure that ppl hire a certain number of colored ppl (brown/ black) and maybe thats reverse discrimination but its necessary b/c although u would like color of skin to be irrelevant we all know that are society is bigoted and hence unless that law is in place...that black/ brown ppl will not be hired!!
anyway, if u dont want to see it ..u wil not! i still recommend that all educated women should make an effort to marry younger guys!
and men who marry half ther age should really consider the consequences...only b/c it will have disparate effects on your lives..its like marrying your cousin. sure if you are in love etc its okay...but u must bear in mind, that in the future u maybe around ppl who think differently and may judge u on that alone...and even judge your children!
things like htis must be born in mind! i know i can not look past them!
Since you have accepted the right of people to marry whoever they like irrespective of their age we can move.
I accept that it is sad that women have a sell-by date or best-before date beyond which their chances of marriage diminish. I personally think that women should not marry before they are in their early twenties at least. Basically what you seem to be saying is that the supply and demand equation needs to be changed so that the pressure of marriage is reduced for women. I also accept this, however we differ in our approach. You seem to be suggesting that women should not marry older guys as your way forward. My approach would be to educate all women. This would reduce the supply of women available in the marriage market.Firstly while they are being educated they would not want to get married and secondly they have a better chance of getting jobs which again means that they do not need to rush out to get married...and can remain financially independent.
However the number of men and women should be fairly equal so I am not completely satisfied where this imbalance comes from in purely mathematical terms.
Re: Age difference in marriage
I accept that it is sad that women have a sell-by date or best-before date beyond which their chances of marriage diminish. I personally think that women should not marry before they are in their early twenties at least. Basically what you seem to be saying is that the supply and demand equation needs to be changed so that the pressure of marriage is reduced for women. I also accept this, however we differ in our approach. You seem to be suggesting that women should not marry older guys as your way forward. My approach would be to educate all women. This would reduce the supply of women available in the marriage market.Firstly while they are being educated they would not want to get married and secondly they have a better chance of getting jobs which again means that they do not need to rush out to get married...and can remain financially independent.
However the number of men and women should be fairly equal so I am not completely satisfied where this imbalance comes from in purely mathematical terms.
i agree i would ideally want that too! i think our soceity would be so much better for it if both men and women were educated. However unfortunately, women are not encouraged to b/c of the whole marriage delima i mentioned above (i.e. as women grow older the pool of men available to them becomes smaller) threfore, women opt not to study and instead are encouraged by their parents, specially considering the expiration dates and all, to get married instead. Since men are encouraged to study instead of marry - the men they usually are availablet othem at early ages are men much older then them. So you see unless we change those math terms we both are refering to, and make it so that women demand that they be married to younger men not older, then they can suddenly afford to educate themselves...and ofcourse after they are educated they can decide for themselves whot hey want to marry be it older/ younger!
until we live in a world where women and men are truly equal, i will continue to encourage women to marry younger, and will continue to have those same aspirations myself - strictly due to socio-political motivation
Re: Age difference in marriage
i understand people should be allowed to do as they choose! hey if women want to marry someone who is thier fathers age ...its thier issue!!!
what i am contesting is where...a lot of pakistani women dont really have a choice. I mean we all say they do, ofcourse a niqa, a marriage is not acceptable by islamic laws unless the girl agress so there is supposed choice...even if it is just rhetorical!
i am taking odds with social pressure which makes this choice really not all that free for most women!!! you are incredibly misguided if you think women would like! to marry older men! i mean there are few exceptions..for whatever odd reason..and hey i agree its thier choice..but i would bet that the vast majority of women would rather a younegr more compatible male! rearely would a 24 yr old really want to be with a 42 yr old! u know!!! but in our society that snot even considered odd...its like oh yea this guy is great for u!!! i am just saying that is somewhat odd....! and i think older men take advantage of the fact that our society is this way ..that there is this social stigma to women not marrying young...and older - even divorced men instead of opting to marry divorced owmen they are more compatible with...ot to go to pakistan and marry an 18/ 22 yr old instead! i am just saying...these guys prey on women! u can be in denial and say it doesnt hapen!
but the fact is...it does!!! older men do prey on younger women in our society b/c its allowed and accepted and the owmen have to live with it!
so if we are gonna talk freedom of choice! well then lets truly want that for both genders!!! and not just be okay with the facade, sham of a freedom that we have given our women!!
I want women to marry when they want, to have the same choice as men! to not have the social pressures that they do...i.e. forget your life goals u should marry! b/c thats what u need to do! i want women in our soceity to feel like they can afford to go and study archealogy go on to do digs all over the world! make amazing hs=istoric finds! i want our women to happily pursue medicine and then meet the man of their dreams! i dont want our women to feel like education is a burden b/c the price they pay is to become suddenly unmarriagable!
if men can marry 18 yr olds at 30! women should be allowed to as well (ofcourse the fact that we are wise enough not to opt ofr that is another thing) but it should not be odd! if men can wait to marry until they are 32, then women should be allowed to as well!! and the fact is arshad! women are not allowed due to social pressure right now, the luxuries that u have to be a man to afford! and that is not!!! certainly not to me by any means! freedom of choice!
A 24 year old woman may not want to marry a 42 year old male....but a male is not going to wait until he is 42 simply so that he can marry a 24 year old girl. I mean he can marry a 24 years old at the age of say 30 why wait an extra 12 years to marry. Its simply not for his benefit, unless he finds himself in that situation.
There are plenty of examples of women marrying older guys..we will ignore pakistani women because you may say that they are forced into such marriage so look at some western women. You cannot argue with the facts.
Marriage is of equals and by consent. Nobody holds a shotgun to someones head and asks them to marry. If people consent then what right have you as a third party to moan about it. If you want to change peoples attitudes then go to Pakistan, set up a NGO and work with these people and change their attitudes. Educate these people but at the end of the day its still their choice and their lives at the end of the day.
While we are on the subject I know of a lot more younger guys getting married and within months getting divorced than older guys. So I don't agree that older men are preying on younger women.
Re: Age difference in marriage
Offtopic but parents who wnt let their daughter get an education because it'll reduce her # of suitors are really sick in the head and so are the guys/families who want an un-parh woman.
Re: Age difference in marriage
arshad5,
men also by their very nature, grow steadily or most never grow at all.
& they don't even realize it, so it does not matter, a 25 years old or a 50 years old, the only sane and pious ones are those who know what is meant by maturing & being stable in tehir person, in their ethics.
sell-by dates or best-before dates can easily be applied to men as well.
Farwah is right on strong accounts.
either way, mental compatibility lacks im almost all abnormally age differenced cases.
dushi
I accept that it is sad that women have a sell-by date or best-before date beyond which their chances of marriage diminish. I personally think that women should not marry before they are in their early twenties at least. Basically what you seem to be saying is that the supply and demand equation needs to be changed so that the pressure of marriage is reduced for women. I also accept this, however we differ in our approach. You seem to be suggesting that women should not marry older guys as your way forward. My approach would be to educate all women. This would reduce the supply of women available in the marriage market.Firstly while they are being educated they would not want to get married and secondly they have a better chance of getting jobs which again means that they do not need to rush out to get married...and can remain financially independent.
However the number of men and women should be fairly equal so I am not completely satisfied where this imbalance comes from in purely mathematical terms.
Re: Age difference in marriage
*** They can! its not about why they should or should not, its about ability! men can if they so choose...remain single until mid-30's and then go and get married to a much younger women! again...when we talk about pool of available partners, as a man gets older they increase for a man, b/c anayone younger then 35 is available as per our tradition to a man! ***
There are plenty of examples of women marrying older guys..we will ignore pakistani women because you may say that they are forced into such marriage so look at some western women. You cannot argue with the facts.
*** If a women, coming from a culture where it is not expected that women marry older..much older guys then them..then yes.. such a marriage i do not take odds with. In of itself an older man marrying a younger woman is not bad. however given the cultural convolutions i don't think younger women should be encouraged to marry older men! like i said its like affirmative action - where discrimination - though in of itself wrong - under affirmative action becomes okay. similarly where otherwise age should be irrelevant, and age as a critera would not be something i would encourage ..in ths case where we need to take affirmative action to protect women, age discrimination against men is needed to level the field. ***
I know that this way of thinking is a threat to men! it is a threat b/c lord forbit u loose your privileges..and why would u want to! i am sure most men are quite comfortable infact i suspect most want the status quo to remain, b/c ours is a patriarichal culture.
Marriage is of equals and by consent. Nobody holds a shotgun to someones head and asks them to marry. If people consent then what right have you as a third party to moan about it. If you want to change peoples attitudes then go to Pakistan, set up a NGO and work with these people and change their attitudes. Educate these people but at the end of the day its still their choice and their lives at the end of the day.
*** I don't need to go to pakistan and set up NGO's I think i can share my ideas, that i hope are contagious....and maybe ppl will learn to see the wisdom in them. They will recognize that the patriarchal status quo needs to be changed not just for womens rights but for our future generations...b/c we can not afford to have the ignorance that we have in our comunity. educated mothers are necessary and we will not have educated mothers if girls and thier parents are afraid to educate them lest they become unmarriageable! b/c education takes time and they can only marry older thus like i said...poll becomes smaller for women with age in a society. I am not taking women's freedom away from them, merely attempting to change status quo thinking...so that women dont feel they always have to marry older...so they have the choice to marry younger as men do!***
While we are on the subject I know of a lot more younger guys getting married and within months getting divorced than older guys. So I don't agree that older men are preying on younger women.
*** what i meant when i said older men preying on younger women! i mean every specifically in re situations where u have older men who go off to pakistan to marry girls half thier age. they are praying on those owmen, why are they not marrying educated women in the US, b/c they know that educated women have brains, freedom of choice (true freedom of choice not the namesake one u keep talking about), and know better. Meanwhile the ones in paksitan are probably poor, uneducated perhaps, and have many cultural constraints..and thus would marry them, not b/c they find htem attractive but b/c they have been so told my thier parents or whomever!***
Re: Age difference in marriage
Dushi I generally have a lot of respect for you. Normally we share certain perceptions of events.
Are you still saying that women are not entitled to make their own choices and that you disagree with their choices as you know better than them?
men also by their very nature, grow steadily or most never grow at all.
& they don't even realize it, so it does not matter, a 25 years old or a 50 years old, the only sane and pious ones are those who know what is meant by maturing & being stable in tehir person, in their ethics.
sell-by dates or best-before dates can easily be applied to men as well. Farwah is right on strong accounts.
either way, mental compatibility lacks im almost all abnormally age differenced cases.
dushi
Re: Age difference in marriage
i realize this is a bit radical! I think it will take a while for both men and women to get used to the idea of women marrying younger men.
Changes in status quo for conservative traditional societies like ours are hard to accept and get used to. However, we need change. We can not afford to continue with the high illeteracy rate, the ignorance that is tolerated, a culture where treating your servants like slaves is okay, where men can conveniently marry a women half thier age and it is a role of a women to be patient and grin and bear it. We need to be a society that is educated, that will look for solutions to our worlds problems not just material possession. We need to be a society that is open-minded and tolerant. we need to be people that are humble and treat other fellow human beings, creatures, plants and our environment with the dignity they deserve.
For this change to happen, our mothers, the ones responsible for raising our children must be educated!! the stauts quo should be such that women are encouraged to educate themselves ....and do not become unmarriageable in seeking this education. The pool for women and men ..to find equal partners in life should be the same, the formula should not be such that as men become more eductaed they can have any women, but when women do the same they loose out.
in any event, I know that the things i say...perhaps even preach...:) question the way we live our lives now, and our objectives and aims.... bt thats the good thing about forums like this...they open us all up to discourse....and i am not twisting anyones arm! i am merely advocating my position on this issue...feel free to advocate yours! just know...that i will force you to question your deeply held believes if you disagree :D
Re: Age difference in marriage
No, Arshad5.
what i am saying is, we are not talking about who on her own marries an older guy. we are concerned about the ones, who are forced into marrying an older man.
that is where they clearly have NO CHOICE.
because the factors which u urself attest to (as to why younger aged women are deemed preferential, as if older women have lost something altogether),
are acknowledged and promoted in the mentality of men, so that they forget that there is something called balance and equality.
i cannot see, what can possibly be the compatibility of a woman half a man's age unless both of them are smoking something toxically sense-lessening.
if i am judgmental in this case, so be it. there is a bigger problem then, of the generation gap between the old dad and his young child later on.
fine, i or anybody else, has no right to put our values over each other, but there are some things that are just not right & we should not sugar coat their complexities under the guise of individualism.
Are you still saying that women are not entitled to make their own choices and that you disagree with their choices as you know better than them?
Re: Age difference in marriage
It seems to me that you moving back from the position that people have free choice, which you earlier accepted. Needless to say I don't think people need dictations from you on how to live their lives or who to marry. I cannot accept anything that takes attacks peoples rights to free choice. I am not going to repeat my arguments again but I suggest that you go back and read all my previous comments. Also you need to be clear in you mind whether you accept peoples right to free choice or you don't in which case we can address this argument accordingly.
Re: Age difference in marriage
arshad5 - i dont understand what your issue is! all i am advocating is that women should be allowed to marry men younger then them!!! is that really peeving you off so much!!!
i have a lot of disdain for women who impose their views on others....and i am clearly not doing that here! i am advocating that women should marry younger then them! its a perception...i sense so much hostility from you on this point. you will not even acknowledge not once that it is okay for a women to marry younger!
then u seem to be making it a womens choice issue that women choosing to marry older should be allowed....are u a woman? then how would u know how much of a choice it is or ISNT?!!!!!
Re: Age difference in marriage
you sound like such a man!! the choice you keep yapping about (pardon my french)! is not FREEEEEE!!!!!!!!! it is not FREE CHOICE!!!!!!!!
where are the women standing by an yelling and arguing and advocating this perspective!!! how many on this thread are saying its a womans rights to marry men twice their age!!!!!!!?!!! how many?! you are not a woman so dont hop around saying its FREE CHOICE!!!!!
its kinda like those guys who go to prostitutes and then tell themselves that those women like it! no ou are not a woman!!!!! u r not those woman!!!! they dont like it...majority of them! exceptional EXCEPTIONAL few who might...
Re: Age difference in marriage
that is where they clearly have NO CHOICE.
Dush,
Whatever examples I gave, none of the girl was forced into marrying a guy more than 15 years older than her. It was the opposite. The girls married willfully, with their own choice. What do you call this?
I am not even sure from where this argument of forced marriages came in rather than accepting the reality that girls themselves want to marry that older guys..... WITH CHOICE....
Re: Age difference in marriage
what i am saying is, we are not talking about who on her own marries an older guy. we are concerned about the ones, who are forced into marrying an older man.
that is where they clearly have NO CHOICE. because the factors which u urself attest to (as to why younger aged women are deemed preferential, as if older women have lost something altogether), are acknowledged and promoted in the mentality of men, so that they forget that there is something called balance and equality.
i cannot see, what can possibly be the compatibility of a woman half a man's age unless both of them are smoking something toxically sense-lessening. if i am judgmental in this case, so be it. there is a bigger problem then, of the generation gap between the old dad and his young child later on.
fine, i or anybody else, has no right to put our values over each other, but there are some things that are just not right & we should not sugar coat their complexities under the guise of individualism.
It seems that you agree with me that women should have a free choice. I agree with you that nobody should be forced to marry against their wills.
Your personal perceptions are irrelevant if you believe in a persons right to make their own choice. You have no right to put your values on others as others have no right to put their values on you unless off course it is by consent and agreement.
Re: Age difference in marriage
uff.... i am gonna go share music on the audio forum!!!