I’m just intrested in finding about these two sects. Any replies relating to the topic would be highly appreciated. 
Thanx.
I guess it kinda depends on what sect you belong to b/c i'm pretty sure every sect looks differently on Agha Khanies/Islamilies.
I also have a question somewhat related to this topic. What's the difference b/w Ahmedis and Qadiyanis? or are they the same?
"I put my trust in Allah, my Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He has a grasp of its forelock. Verily, my Lord is on the straight path. (The truth)"
(11:55-56)
Bismah,
Is there anything in particular that you would like to know?
If not, then I would highly recommend you try another venue to find more of the history/background/beliefs of these people. This forum has not proved to be very satisfactory in the past in responding to queries of a sect related nature.
just do a internet search on the two words and you get oodels of results. I guess you may want to read that first. This venue might be better for a specif question. Expect lots of conteraversy though.
Ibrahim says: try http://www.mostmerciful.com/ , web site author was an Ex shia priest who finally became a Muslim after a long time preaching about Agah Khanies/Ismailies , he could provide the best, accurate and detailed insider info about them.
Regards
Ibrahim
as far as i know they r sects of the shiaa people....
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** an Ex shia priest who finally became a Muslim **
[/quote]
Can you expand on this please.......coz:
Shias are muslims, so wont it be silly to convert to Islam again?
Shia's dont have Priests just Scholars
Ex?
The agakhanis are the ismailis.
The ismailis follow the imammi shia branch of islam.
Try these Official sites of the Ismailis:
The Institute of Ismaili Studies http://www.iis.ac.uk/
http://ismaili.net
http://akdn.org
Ahmadis and Qadianis are pretty much the same..just that the term qadiani arose from where the riots took place
There is also a difference in the style of decision making, Shia's are more Imam based, while Sunni's generally follow a system based more on consensus building ( both have their advantages...and disadvantages)
[quote]
while Sunni's generally follow a system based more on consensus building
[/quote]
consensus building on rulings issued by Imams in the first place.. hence hanafi, malki, shafi etc.
This Space For Rent
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
** Can you expand on this please.......coz:
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Salaams to all
Dear Shah Jahan , when you need explanations always go to the specialists of such fields, I had already given the web site and that person whom I have seen posting on many forums in the past, is a very helpful person he goes to lengths to reeducate the shia since he was one in the past, so he will be the best person to explain. Just check him out for your answers.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
well here in india they are one of the most prosporous communities but i dont think they qualify to be called muslims
Brothers Shah Jahan and Ibrahim: whilst the Ismailis consider themselves to be Shia, and this ex-Ismaili refers in his site to him previously being “Shia Ismaili”, it may be worthwhile considering that many muslims such as Shah Jahan who follow Fiqh Jafria do not consider the Ismailis as Shias or even Muslims.
Brother Ibrahim, I urge you edit you last post here, because I fear you have used the term “reedducate the shia since he was one in the past”. I believe this would offend Shah Jahan, as by this statement you have equated Ismaili beliefs with Shia beliefs; something to which Shah Jahan stongly objects - his opinion, made clear in the past, is that Ismailis are in no way Shias. Brother Ibrahim, equating the Ismailis to Shias is just as offensive to Shah Jahan as equating Ahmadis to Sunnis is to us.
Please edit you post to something like “reeducate the Ismailis since he was one in the past.”
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Having said this, it should be noted that in no Muslim country is there an effort by a mainstream Islamic movement to have the Ismailis declared to be non-muslims.
Having had a number of close friends at school who were Ismailis, and having quizzed them considerably about their beliefs, I found that 4 members of the same family had wildly varying beliefs; this principally stops me from subscribing to the view that they are non-muslims, though I remain undecided. Examples:
Daughter in family: Declared the Aga Khan to be her god
Cousin in family: Declared the Aga Khan to simply be a spiritual leader
Daughter in family: Declared that hajj is not obligatory, would never go
Son in family: Vehemently insists that he fully intends to go on Hajj during lifetime, argues with sister over this
Son in family: Fasting during Ramadan not necessary, though concedes that this is still debated amongst their community
Mother in family: Fasting is so obligatory, she still fasted when she was too ill to get out of bed.
Like I said, I’ve seen wildly varying opinions amongst them. Some views are clearly well out of Islam (such as the daughter saying that the Aga Khan is her god), but others oppose these views.
I for one will only decide on the muslim/non-muslim issue when there is broad concensus amongst the majority of scholars as to whether or not the Ismailis are Muslims, in the same way in which the majority of scholars maintain that Ahmadis are not Muslims.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited February 09, 2002).]
Ibrahim says; salaams to all
Jazak Allahu Khair Brother mAd_ScIeNtIsT for your valuable comments and insights. Firstly, the web site I am referring to may also expound on shi ism in general and why the author left it or did not switch from ismaili to jafari , although the ismailis can be called the seveners ( 7 imams) and the Jafari the twelver’s (12 Imams), both originate from certain clear principals and both have called themselves shia’s by their own free will.
Muslims practice Islam , shia practice what they have concluded as the ‘true” Islam but prefer to call themselves as shia , which is a little odd, since the Prophet (pbuh) assigned to teach Islam did no such thing.
We know that this is a very controversial subject and can only lead us to endless arguments and the moderators had already warned us not to proceed any further, which I fully agree as much as I also agree with your point.
As much as I agree with you on this, I also feel this is similar to the Protestants and Catholics in Christianity. There were originally Muslims when they followed their prophets but had deviated by inventing their own path and ended up as people of the book in the Qur’an.
To be honest in my perspective, there is no such thing as “Sunnis” either in Islam, there is Islam and no other, any other labeling amounts to segregation and deviation from the religion Allah(swt) established for mankind.
Let us read..
3: 85 If anyone desires ** a religion other than Islam ** (submission to Allah) ** never will it be accepted of him;** and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)
Ibrahim says: Thus I see little offence in my statements as all I am saying is that he was a Shia and now he is against shia immaterial of what sect of shia he may belong to and we are not deciding who is Muslim and who is not, but affirming that “Islam” has no other labels. That would be the best policy for us to stay away from infighting and become united in resolve.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Was salaam
Ibrahim
[quote]
I for one will only decide on the muslim/non-muslim issue when there is broad concensus amongst the majority of scholars as to whether or not the Ismailis are Muslims, in the same way in which the majority of scholars maintain that Ahmadis are not Muslims.
[/quote]
I don't think it's any person's right to declare another group non-Muslim or Kaafir etc. If you're a Sunni in a majority Ahmadi community, I guess you stand a chance of being declared a kaffir.. doesn't make their beliefs right or wrong neither yours. Judgement is with Allah ALONE.
This Space For Rent
Just to get a general overview :-
** Ismailite **
a sect of the Shi'ites (one of the major branches of Islam) that was most active as a ** religio-political movement** in the 9th-13th century through its subsects, the Fatimids, the Qaramitah (Qarmatians), and the Assassins.
The Isma'ilites came into being after the death of Ja'far ibn Muhammad (765), the sixth imam, or spiritual successor to the Prophet, who was recognized by the Shi'ites. ** Ja'far's eldest son, Isma'il, was accepted as his successor only by a minority, who became known as the Isma'ilites. Those who accepted Ja'far's younger son, Musa al-Kazim, as the seventh imam and acknowledged his successors through the 12th imam became known as the Ithna 'Ashariyah, or Twelvers, ** the largest and most conservative of the Shi'ite sects. Certain of the Isma'ilites (known as Waqifiyah, or Stoppers) believed Isma'il to have been the seventh and last imam and were designated as Seveners (Sab'iyah), ** while the majority of Isma'ilites believed the imamate continued in the line of the Fatimid caliphs. ** The Seveners later claimed that Isma'il's son Muhammad at-Tamm was expected to return at the end of the world as the mahdi ("divinely guided one").
Isma'ilite doctrine, formulated during the late 8th and early 9th centuries, stressed the dual nature of Quranic interpretation, exoteric and esoteric, and, like Manichaeism, made a corresponding distinction between the ordinary Muslim and the initiated Isma'ilite. The secret wisdom of the Isma'ilites was accessible only through a hierarchical organization headed by the imam and was disseminated by da'is (missionaries), who introduced believers into the elite through carefully graded levels. The Rasail ikhwan as-safawa khillan al-wafa ("Epistles of the Brethren of Purity and Loyal Friends"), a 10th-century philosophical and religious encyclopaedia influenced by Neoplatonism, was said to have been composed by a secret confraternity connected with the Isma'ilites.
The Isma'ilites became active in the second half of the 9th century in southern Iraq under the leadership of Hamdan Qarmat. This branch of the sect, which came to be known as the Qaramitah, established itself in Iraq, Yemen, and especially Bahrain, in the 9th-11th century.
In Tunis, 'Ubayd Allah established himself as the first Fatimid caliph in 909, claiming descent--through a line of "hidden imams"--from Muhammad, son of Isma'il, and through him from Fatimah, daughter of the Prophet, whence the dynastic name. The Fatimids conquered Egypt in 969; while they did not succeed in converting the bulk of their subjects during their brilliant rule of two centuries, they did create a widespread Isma'ilite missionary network with followers all over the Islamic world. (see also Index: Fatimid dynasty)
A fatal schism split the movement over the succession to the Fatimid caliph al-Mustansir (d. 1094). ** The Egyptian Isma'ilites recognized his son al-Musta'li, but the Isma'ilites of Iran and Syria upheld the claims of his older son, Nizar; hence, there are two branches of Fatimids, the Musta'lis and the Nizaris. ** (see also Index: Nizari Isma'iliyah)
When Isma'iliyah came to an end in Egypt with the deposition of the last Fatimid caliph by Saladin in 1171, the Musta'li Isma'ilites survived in Yemen. They had not recognized any Fatimid after al-Amir, al-Musta'li's son, and believed that al-Amir's infant son atTayyib remained alive and that the line of the imams was hidden until a future time. In the interim they are governed by the chief da'i. In the 16th century the da'i of a major branch of the Musta'lis relocated in India and now resides in Surat, in Gujarat district. His followers in India are usually known as Bohras.
The Nizaris, led by Hasan-e Sabbah, gained control of a number of fortresses in Iran and Syria, the chief being Alamut (1090). Known as Assassins, they remained in political power through the 13th century until displaced by the Mongols and the Mamluks. The Nizaris survived, though in two rival lines. The minor line died out by the 18th century, while the major line, led by an imam called the Aga Khan, moved from Iran to India in 1840. The Aga Khan has a following, estimated in the millions, in India and Pakistan and in parts of Iran, Africa, and Syria.
The Druze, a hill people living in modern southern Lebanon, neighbouring Syria, and Israel, separated from the main body of the Isma'ilites early in the 11th century. They then formed a special closed religion of their own, which acknowledged the imams as incarnations of the godhead.
** Ismaili **
Besides the main body of Twelver (Ithna 'Ashariyah) Shi'ah, Shi'ism has produced a variety of more or less extremist sects, the most important of them being the Isma'ili. Instead of recognizing Musa as the seventh imam, as did the main body of the Shi'ah, the Isma'ilis upheld the claims of his elder brother Isma'il. One group of Isma'ilis, called Seveners (Sab'iyah), considered Isma'il the seventh and last of the imams. The majority of Isma'ilis, however, believed that the imamate continued in the line of Isma'il's descendants. The Isma'ili teaching spread during the 9th century from North Africa to Sind, in India, and the Isma'ili Fatimid dynasty succeeded in establishing a prosperous empire in Egypt. ** Isma'ilis are subdivided into two groups -- the Nizaris, headed by the Aga Khan, and the Musta'lis in Bombay, with their own spiritual head. ** The Isma'ilis are to be found mainly in East Africa, Pakistan, India, and Yemen. (see also Index: Isma'ilite, Nizari Isma'iliyah)
In their theology, the Isma'ilis have absorbed the most extreme elements and heterodox ideas. The universe is viewed as a cyclic process, and the unfolding of each cycle is marked by the advent of seven "speakers"--messengers of God with Scriptures--each of whom is succeeded by seven "silents"--messengers without revealed scriptures; the last speaker (the Prophet Muhammad) is followed by seven imams who interpret the Will of God to man and are, in a sense, higher than the Prophet because they draw their knowledge directly from God and not from the Angel of Revelation. During the 10th century, certain Isma'ili intellectuals formed a secret society called the Brethren of Purity, which issued a philosophical encyclopaedia, The Epistles of the Brethren of Purity, aiming at the liquidation of positive religions in favour of a universalist spirituality. (see also Index: "Rasail ikhwan as-safa wa khillan al-wafa` ," )
** The late Aga Khan III (1887-1957) had taken several measures to bring his followers closer to the main body of the Muslims.** The Isma'ilis, however, still have not mosques but jama'at khanahs ("gathering houses"), and their mode of worship bears little resemblance to that of the Muslims generally.
** Batinyah **
Muslim sects--the Ismailis (Arabic: Isma'iliyah), in particular--that interpreted religious texts exclusively on the basis of their hidden, or inner, meanings (Arabic: batin) rather than their literal meanings (zahir). This type of interpretation gained currency about the 8th century among certain esoteric Shi'ite sects, especially the Ismailis, a religiously and politically schismatic group. The Ismailis believed that beneath every obvious or literal meaning of a sacred text lay a secret, hidden meaning, which could be arrived at through tawil (allegorical interpretations); thus, every statement, person, or object could be scrutinized in this manner to reveal its true intent. They further stated that Muhammad was only the transmitter of the literal word of God, the Quran, but it was the imam (leader) who was empowered to interpret, through ta`wil, its true, hidden meaning. (see also Index: Isma'ilite)
Speculative philosophy and theology eventually influenced the Batiniyah, though they remained at all times on the side of esoteric knowledge; some Sufis (Muslim mystics) were also placed among the Batiniyah for their insistence that there was an esoteric body of doctrine known only to the initiate. Although the Ismailis had always acknowledged the validity of both batin and zahir, about the 12th century this balance was upset by the Nusairis (Nusayriyah) and the Druze, who accepted only the hidden meanings and exalted the imam to extraordinary heights. (see also Index: 'Alawite)
Sunnite (traditionalist) Muslim scholars condemned the Batiniyah for all interpretations that rejected the literal meaning and accused them of producing confusion and controversy through a multiplicity of readings; this, the Sunnites alleged, allowed ignorant or mischievous persons to claim possession of religious truths and thus deceive those who lacked the knowledge to expose them. ** The Batiniyah were further labeled by the Sunnites as enemies of Islam, bent upon destroying the Sunnites' conception of the faith.** See also tafsir.
Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica
So,Ibrahim or Mad is going to Educate the Ismailis?
May I suggest that you educate yourselves before even thinking about educating others.
The ismailis or anybody else for that matter do not have to follow Islam according to you or your sahihs. You are not the custodian and neither is Islam your pappa's property.
I commend the ahle bayt imams of the ismailis for putting into practise an Islam that tolerant and compassionate - a thinking man's faith. Can, either Mad or IBRAHIM say the same about your practise of islam?
And, so what, if they get called - non-muslim? Takfeering seems to be the in-thing amongst muslims. Who-ever calls the others - kafir in the loudest voice is the best & truest muslim. Get real -people!
Do you really think that I would be worried of not being associated with either Ibrahim, or Mad or the saudis, or the taleban and their practise of islam, for example?
**Btw - If you two find some anti-ismaili site to be useful then can i direct you to hundreds of anti-sunni sites, run by ex-sunnis, like Ali Sina, for example?
What is that you are saying?
The anti-sunni sites are all lies. Yeah, sure!**
Is this not a great for US 'Ummah' to fight about who is Muslim and who is not while Palestinians, Chechens, kashmiries and other Muslims are being slaughtered by the non-Muslims all over the world?
Great work guys, keep it up
i belive mr jinnah was also a ismaili.
correct me if iam wrong.
[quote]
Originally posted by kabir:
i belive mr jinnah was also a ismaili.
correct me if iam wrong.
[/quote]
He was born an Ismaili and was a close friend of the Aga Khan, but following the death of Jinnah's first wife, he converted. Which fiqh he converted to is still debated to this day (as Jinnah, in his wisdom, foresaw the threat of sectarianism and hatred between sunni and shia muslims, and would only ever publicly state that he was Muslim, when asked what fiqh he followed), but most sources that I have seen indicate that he chose to follow Fiqh Jafria.
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited February 12, 2002).]