Afghanistan Elections

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
181

First, show me one shred of evidence that the election was fixed. There have been allegations of widespread irregularities, but that is far different from election fixing. Irregularities in this case means multiple votes. But no one has alleged that this was planned or coordinated, simply villagers cheating. The fact that Karzai appears to have over 55% of the vote would mean that there would have to be massive and very obvious electio rigging to bring him close to these levels.

The reason Karzai was elected is that he has the pocketbook of the United States. He has the ability to rebuild, and this is something that rich Arab nations could have done 10 times over in the past 25 years. They did not. Rather Saudi and Paksitan meddled in politics, encouraging the most totalitarian and repressive of governments. The west is accomplishing something the Ummah could not.

Don't look now, but the Afghans are flipping you guys off....

182

Well, the mere fact that Karzai appears to have won by 55% vote, and not by 95-99% (Saddam, Mubarak or Musharraf style) tells us, all is not bad with these elections.

By the way, Bush mentioned several times, that there are 10 million people registered to vote in Afghan elections. So what is the total current population of Afghanistan, and how many are voting age? Just so we can keep a perspective on how many Afghans are actually interested in these elections.

Having said all that, I still believe, Karzai really only rules a 3 mile radius within Kabul. Afghanistan is not actually known as a country which tolerates strong federal governments. Its just not part of their culture.

183

Ohioguy

Have you ever thought for one minute, how could your country bring prosperity and peace to anyone, when your own house is disarray.

Of the world’s 268 nations, is it the freest? 49% of the population votes in the Presidential elections, below the world average of 56%. More people show up to vote in Nigeria and Romania. Is the rest of America apathetic or disenfranchised or distracted or disgusted?

America’s freedom may be laudable but it is by no means unique. When one is reminded that the U.S. is only one of the world’s 121 'democracies'.

The U.S. closely resembles the adversaries it most wishes to distinguish itself from. Like North Korea, it overspends on the military. Like China and Iran, it executes criminals. (Japan is the only other highly developed nation with the death penalty and they use it about a sixth as often.)

The U.S., which is the only country that has ever used a nuclear weapon, currently has more than seven thousand operational warheads in silos, subs and on bombers. The U.S. is not doing much for the rest of the world. It gives .06% of its GDP to foreign aid; relative to its economy, Denmark gives 17 times as much. On top of that, 23% of U.S. foreign aid is actually military aid, with the two largest recipients being Israel and Egypt.

If you do not adjust for population, the U.S. takes the gold in rape, assault and burglary. The U.S. has more of its population in prison than any other country, 7 out of every 1000, about seven times as much percentage-wise as China or Western Europe, for a total of 2 million prisoners.

Human Rights Watch will remind you that in America juveniles are tried as adults in many cases and penalties for drug offenses are extreme, particularly in the state of New York. The average U.S. prison sentence is 29 years, twice that of the U.K.

Afghanistan. Here comes Sergeant Slaughter.

Actually we're already here and you better make us proud!

184

sholay,

When did I ask you to spout some drippy anti-american crap. I have been on Gupshup three years, and I have listened to every little toad spew a littany of half truths, muslim urban myths, blatantly wrong statistics, and dubious history. Every possible analysis of why the US is a failure has been posted here, and your little essay is really third rate.

The point here is that AFGHANISTAN (the subject of this thread) sees rays of hope for the first time in 30 years. We should have forced our hand after the Soviets left, offering opportunity and reconstruction then. When left to theri own devices, with huge amounts of foreign meddling, the Afghans did nothing but kill each other.

Perhaps your memory has faded, but at the time of the US attack on Afghanistan, the Taliban had ejected almost all ouside aid workers. Due to a lack of rain and constant combat, the country was facing the deaths of over six million due to starvation. Hooray proud Taliban. Reconstruction has been show. It should have been faster. NATO waqs a bunch of wussies, and contributed far too few troops to stabilize the countryside. But the Afghans having experienced 30 years of combat are anxious to get on with their. The are anxious for reconciliation, jobs and stability. More power to them. I hope we stay the couse and see that this opportunity for success is funded and assisted. So far pretty good.

If you are truely "brothers" of the Afghans, then cheer for their successes, do not burden them with your anti-American dogma, when the Islamic world has done crap to help the Afghans.

185

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The west is accomplishing something the Ummah could not.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly right OG, Ummah could not bring a non-Islamic secular govt in Afghanistan where religion is such a vital part of people’s daily life. Ummah could not force its secular non-Islamic believes on Muslims of Afghanistan. Ummah could not bring a failed democracy like the one you have here in America (sholay did a good job above of explaining how flop the whole American so-called democracy system is, so I don’t need emphasize on it anymore). Yes, yes indeed, ummah could not do all that.

186

the only answer the Ummah had in Afghanistan was totalitarian repression, and peace by slaughter. Of course that nasty 15 year fight with the Northern Alliance was not solved either, but who cares about facts?

What makes you think that the final Afghan Government will not be suitably "Islamic" for the Afghan people? Isn't that up to them to decide? What you had there before was "Islam by Gun", a draconian view of Islam that was the Pariah of the world. Only two countries had recognized the legitimacy of the Taliban government. And the infighting had reduced the entire country to rubble. Perhaps the Afghans have had enough of that stupid experiment.

187

What makes you think that 15 years war will not continue in Afghanistan after the US forces will leave that country (if they ever will)? You think that your puppet karzai can control the whole country by sitting in Kabul. These people have always lived in tribes and they have never accepted the central govt system. If 55% of people (mostly living in Kabul and surrounding areas) have voted in favor of the puppet than 45 % have voted against him. They will never accept puppet and his regime.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
What makes you think that the final Afghan Government will not be suitably "Islamic" for the Afghan people? Isn't that up to them to decide?
[/QUOTE]

It’s a no brainer for anyone to realize that America would never want a Islamic govt in Afghanistan. Isn’t that the whole reason Americans were there to destroy Taliban regime which was according you Americans was too Islamic? It’s so obvious that America wants a secular govt there that it’s not even worth arguing. If you let Afghanis decide than they would definitely want an Islamic govt. You can ask any Afghani. I mean real Afghanis, not phonies like SSS.

188

Ohioguy

Yes. The Truth hurts. There's plenty more where that came from.

Secondly, these half truth myths by toads that seem to be bothering you so much, were compiled by your own democratic sources set up by your mechanisms. You were quick enough to quote the CIA World fact book about Israel when it suited your whims and desires in another post, but when facts are given back to from just as good a credible source, not only do you cry, but you start throwing personal insults. Or try to at least!

This is the whole problem with the American attitude so deeply programmed in you. You believe that everyone must judge America in line with it's own gullible citizens and must agree with its rationale.

The reality unfortunately for you and your co-d's is that most people from outside the USA, judge it by its actions. The U.S.’s current position is neither isolationism nor internationalism but rather a “unilateralism” that combines the worst of both, intervening wherever it wants without regard for sovereignty or world opinion. More and more the U.S. stands alone, on reducing pollution, eliminating landmines, banning nuclear testing, and establishing an international court for war criminals, all of which it opposes.

Your version of Democracy does not work. Your history is a testimony to this fact. How the hell can you teach others to read when you can't spell yourself. (It's a parable in case you take it literally).

For you to justify forcing your way of life onto Afghanistan, we must have a measuring yardstick. That yardstick starts at home.
Therefore, we must scrutinise what the USA has achieved with it's version of Democracy since it's Independance, that has made the USA a role model for other nations in order to implement it's way of life.

Afghanistan is no guinea pig which requires trial and error testing formulas. However, you and your country seems to beg to differ on Afghanistan including the rest of the World?

189

More the orthodox way of explaining but this guy has (a) points!

190

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Golden Scorpion: *
.... I am workin for Afghanistan since 3 yrs now... And... I have spent lots of time there with diff ppl and agencies etc etc...Things Seems to be okie..
[/QUOTE]

My hats off to your work and the job well done (so far) by your colleagues. Please continue with the work.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Golden Scorpion: *
....Just Remember one thing.. WHEN THERE IS USA at the GAME in some COUNTRY... the Future of that country CAN NEVER BE GOOD......
USA is like..... PARASITES... they Suck Blood out of the Bodies of the Nations...
[/QUOTE]

This is true only in the books of Kabuli Kommie Kabal (the racist KKK).

Imagine the good effects of USA sucking blood from South Korea, Japan, Germany, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, and Hong Kong and now Bharat.

I would have every other country standing in line for their "bad blood" to be sucked by USA. So that they can also become "healthy" members of this global village we call "world".

P.s. Continue your work and please stay away from Kabuli Kommies and their Mullahtic parasites.

191

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *
Karzai is an Amreekan tota, ....
[/QUOTE]

So Mr. Verizon is not an "Amreekan Tota" if he lives in Amreeka, eats Amreeka, sleeps in Amreeka, drives Taxi cab in Amreeka, and runs a dirty 7-eleven in a seedy part of the NY.

But Heavans forbid, if Karazai brings peace with help with USA. Thats bad! Very bad.

Kabuli Kommie Kabal, Verizon and his ilk want Kabul to burn 24 hours. Verizon no likes peace in Kabul. no no!

Damn Kabuli Kommies!

192

"Your version of Democracy does not work."

300 years of stable governments, economic prosperity and an increasingly powerful country would sort of contradict this. You may not like it, but nothing better has yet appeared. The communists spent 70 years spouting the same thing, and preaching the downfall of democracies and the rise of communist and socialist ideals. Didn't work out so well. But you can continue to piss into the wind if you like!

The fact that Afghans voted is simply their desire to take back control of thier own destiny. In April will be Parliamentary elections. Eventually the Warlords will be forced to lay down arms. Afghanistan will always be what it is, wild and fracured, but there is a chance for peace. Wish them well, do not curse them because they want something better....

193

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Wish them well, do not curse them because they want something better....
[/QUOTE]

Actually we don't curse the Afghans. We curse those that falsely and hypocritically state their objective is to help the Afghan people achieve something better just because their true agenda blew up in their face.

194

Ohioguy

If your version works, then over the 300 years or so, why do you have the highest crime rate, most rapes, most drugs related offences, most people with liberties taken away thus in prison, largest concentration of gays in the world, most abortions, most single parents, most illigitimate children born out of wedlock, bearing in mind that you are not neither the largest country in the world nor the most populous! Your 300 million inhabitants are about a third the cool billion of China or India and on a par with fourth place Indonesia. Tokyo and Mexico City are bigger than the Big Apple, as is Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Economically as you boasted, arguably you are the the richest nation, though one does well to note that your currently lagging growth rate of 3.1% ranks it at 106th in that category, a little below the world average of 3.7% and well behind China’s 9.1%!

80% of your economy is “soft” rather than “hard,” not old-fashioned agriculture (2%) or manufacturing (18%) but various activities typically lumped together as services: finance, retail sales, education, health care, entertainment, all office work, pretty much anything that isn’t a farm or factory. You currently import 11% of your goods from China alone (whose economy is over 50% manufacturing and who sells the U.S. $24 billion more than it buys from them).

You consume 20 million barrels of oil a day, about a fourth of the world’s oil, four times as much as any other country, while producing a corresponding 5 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide, more than the U.K. or Canada produce in ten years.

Care to explain or care to bulls... your way out again!

Finally, with all the advances your version of democracy has made in light of the above, I'd rather piss in the wind than on my face like you have done. (no disrespect intended).

We wish our fellow Afgfhani Muslim brethren exactly what we wish for ourselves, as our Faith teaches us to wish for our brethren what we'd wish for ourselves. The Muslim Ummah is like the human body, when one part hurts, the whole body feels it. The difference between us and you (USA) is that we accepted what Afghanistan wanted for itself, whereas you forced your ideology upon them by invading them!

195

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
The Muslim Ummah is like the human body, when one part hurts, the whole body feels it.
[/QUOTE]

Unless that part of the body is called Darfur or the Iraqi National Guard (Muslims I think!) or Palestine for that matter.

Actually,you're right I suppose, you do ache and hurt, it's just that you prefer to wallow in the pain and bitch at the doctor for giving you a shot. And many of you end up moving in with the doctor, though there you remain-moaning and groaning about the pain...oh the pain!

196

Well, let's deal with this little tirade a step at a time. First of all demand a refund on your Economics classes.

"80% of your economy is “soft” rather than “hard,” not old-fashioned agriculture (2%) or manufacturing (18%) but various activities typically lumped together as services: finance, retail sales, education, health care, entertainment, all office work, pretty much anything that isn’t a farm or factory. You currently import 11% of your goods from China alone (whose economy is over 50% manufacturing and who sells the U.S. $24 billion more than it buys from them)."

First, our Agriculture is phenomenally efficient. American Agriculture could literally feed the world if it had to. The percentage of our labor force needed to feed our country is miraculously low. Importing is nothing new. In the 60's goods that said "made in Japan" were thought of as worthless and cheap. Now they make the Lexus. When the standard of living made Japanese labor expensive, manufacturing moved to Taiwan. Their standard of living increased. You do not have to make things in a global society. Infact, making things may be the least efficient use of your labor. Importing from China, where labor is cheap allows a far better standard of living for those at home. Unemployment here is less than 6%, with millions of immigrants flooding the southern border each year.

The thing that you are failing to grasp is that India and China both will see remarkable gains in their economies, standards of living, their educational levels, health levels, as they form interconnected bonds with the US economy. Who will be left behind? The Ignorant who rail against this powerful engine of world growth will be left behind. Any guesses who that will be?

And if things are all that bad in the US, why do we have people moaning about thier visas not being approved, and dying to get their green cards?

197

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
...Economically ......80% of your economy is “soft” ...than “hard,” ....
[/QUOTE]

Apparently you didn't ask the Commies. They would have told you! Man it is very hard! and them yanks didn't even put a protection on!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
......Your 300 million inhabitants are about a third the cool billion of China or India and on a par with fourth place Indonesia. ..
[/QUOTE]

So what's your point? You think all the Mullahs heading to China for jobs or Indonesia is eating all the cholay (chick peas)?

Oh well! sitting in cave and living with dysentery does effect the few leftover brain cells of Mullah and the Al (Al-zaya-hiri the waste one).

198

Antiobl

If you wasn't so obssessed by Mullahs, maybe you'd be proud of who you are. Worked you out ages ago my friend! I'm surprised you don't live in a cave downtown Mississippi in Pakistan! I'm sure you get my drift.

Ohioguy

Exactly what it boils down to from your end. Visas and Green Cards. America this America that. Like I said, if your formula worked, why have you got such problems?

As a matter of fact why don't you give these Visas and Green Cards to the Afghanis. You've got more than enough room to accommodate them!

199

AntiOBL,
I really don’t want to lower myself to your socio-economic levels and engage in name calling and cat calls etc. I know it is amusing to you and your cohorts to belittle people. I saw your piece in Pakistani forum where you were patting yourself on the back and calling it an AntiOBL fan club however, remember one thing, life is a two way street (if you can do it so can I). I always thought that Pakistani Army Officers graduating from PMA were of higher standards, so uphold that high standard and show some professionalism. I hope the standard of PMA has not fallen down, but it does appear so, when I read your posts rather your replies.

Afghan elections were rigged :fraudia: just like Pakistani elections (if Pakistan has had any since 1998). So Karzai got 55% of the vote instead of the usual 99% that American backed dick-taters (pardon the pun) usually get. The reason was to show some validity to the electoral process. In Iraq if true elections are held you will see a Shiite (whether it is Moktada al Sadr or not) win and that is because of the demographics of Iraq. I can go on and cite examples of other countries where U.S backed regimes are not popular but always seem to get elected. This leads us to the age old sayings “what’s in my best interest” or “what’s in it for me”. This is fine as well because foreign policy is usually conducted in such manner i.e the countries best interest (in this case U.S) should always come first, so it is OK for U.S to rig elections and support unpopular regimes which are brutal to their own people (Saudis in general and what Pakistan is doing in FATA), but to call it a fair process is in by itself unfair.

I find it humorous that you call yourself AntiOBL but turn into ProOBL when it comes to Kashmir, because OBL supports the Kashmiri cause and sends his Arab Afghan fighters to engage in state sponsored (that will be Pakistan) terrorism (that you Army boys call freedom fighting).

Armed forces :soldier: in general have an obligation to protect its borders and its people. My hats off to the Pakistani Army they have always done a stupendous job when it comes to soldiering, keeping the country safe, and getting rid of corrupt elected officials. Pak-Army should not have turned its guns :2guns: on the very people (people in Wana and the farmers in Okara etc) that it pledges to protect.

200

"Afghan elections were rigged"

Of course there is absolutely no facts to back up this opinion. Virtually every outside observer organization has stated that the elections were generally fair. The acknowledge that there were incidents of cheating by individuals, but that there was no coordinated fraud, massive theft of ballots, or destruction of ballots. There were an exceptional number of Afghan and international poll observers for this election, hundred times more than your typical third world election.

Until you present a shred of facts supporting your conclusion, it appears that your opinion is just prejudgement .....