surprised to see that nobody notices how mothers of all believers used to live
there are too many interpretations of Quraan
and everyone uses these to prove his point
WHY NOT following our mothers who were ,no doubt, the best women
but usually we try to find some loop holes
>>>I am astonished when I hear that women are asking for fatwas to be permitted to go out without hijab because of fears of being identified as muslims. Why does a man have to give this permission? It is between a woman and Allah. Are women so subject to a man's approval that even common sense is ruled by men's opinions?<<<
Shirin, I think you're focusing too much on the male versus female aspect of the issue as opposed to the issue of asking someone that more learned, possessing a greater amount of knowledge in regards to deen, for an opinion in a specific circumstance as outlined above. As muslim women we have to practice hijab, there's no ifs or buts about it. Its something we are commanded to do..its in the quran, its in the teachings of the Prophet (saw). On the issue of whether a woman decides to abide by those teachings or not I'm not going to comment on. Now in this instance the woman is afraid of being recognized as a muslim, she's obviously very concerned wants to know what are the conditions/consequences/effects of not practicing hijab in such a situation and so she's asking someone who is more knowledgeable about such matters. Just because it just so happens that the majority of the Islamic scholars are male, and that is probably something that has been influenced by cultural practices in many areas where females are not always encouraged to seek knowledge, I don't think one can use that point in an issue of this nature, cause its doesn't have anything to do with a woman seeking a man's approval.
>>>Yesterday I read some scholar's works where he says that as women's feet are sexually stimulating they should wear sandals with socks!!!!<<<
There's extremists and wackos everywhere, take the attack on the WTC, the bombing in Oklahoma city, the shootings in Littleton, Colarado, or ....i could go on. The thing is its usually obvious when someone's saying/doing something thats not exactly right, or within the bounds of whats acceptable, and its for us to use our intellect to distinguish what is acceptable and what isn't. I know those examples I gave aren't what is being talked about here, but in nature i guess they could be said to be parallel.
Shirin, what should be displayed in public?
Islam(Koraan) tells MUSLIM women to wear hijab and cover their bodies-a relationship between Allah(koraan) and Muslim women. Muslim women is ORDERED to cover her self, to wear hijab. If she disobeys the orders of Allah and Koraan-which is a big sin and she will be held accountable for that. I think, ullema's should give speeches, should educate women(who know not) about hijab and other related issues-instead of forcing something onto a person, which she might not want to do. I think, that is wrong and we should avoid such pressure. This only makes women hate Islam and makes them want to escape rather than embrace.
Allah says in Koraan regarding Prophet Mohammad(saw) that he is only a warner, a messenger... in the same context ullema's are only warners and message givers. Their job is to inform people and leave the rest to allah whether he wants to fill our hearts with love for Islam and makes us total Islamic law abiding Muslims or not so law abiding Muslims. When message of allah(what is according to koraan and tradition of Mohammad(saw) has been delivered by the ullemas, and people do not act on it-allah will punish them with the way he choses to.
"I am not playing with a full deck!"
Originally posted by Hinna:
*Hmm..some people forget that SAUDI ARABIA makes sure that ALL women are covered. If you have been there you would know that many of the local women wear black jilbabs and cover their entire face. Women are also not allowed to work unless they are doctors. They are also not allowed to drive a car.
If you are not properly covered, people will come running after you shouting "HARAM HARAM HARAM" until you cover or remove something that is inappropriate.
**How come that isn't seen as "oppression" in the West???
I question that also.
Moreover, I question the people who are raising their voices in cries for the oppressed women of Afghanistan. The majority of these women have always dressed like this, except for the select few in cities like Kabul, make that city, for in Herat and Kandahar women would cover their faces also, until Zahir Shah brought in legislation urging women to abandon not only the veiling of the face, but practicing hijab.
Maybe its true, the government never required women to practice hijab, but their families did. Its not only a matter of religion, but a matter of honour for these people, to keep their women veiled and secluded from the gazes of outsiders. So much so that men are reluctant to unnecessarily reveal information regarding their female relatives, even something as simple as a name. Its a practice strongly influenced by culture, but echoes the teachings and examples shown to us in the sunnah.
Its true, many muslims don't follow Islam and the sunnah so strictly, and there's nothing wrong with that. But what really irritates me, is that when there is a people practicing such a strong committment to deen, the people who aren't as fastidious find it alright to criticize them.
Roman: *God be the judge and jury and if there is punishment or reward, that's between the individual and the God. *
I think the above statement is pretty clear, simple and is not bound to any specific religion.
Why are muslim men so insecure that they have to force God's words on women. I strongly believe that woman who are going to follow islam and who follow Gods commands will come through just fine. Why aren't they given a chance to follow religion or disregard it based on their interpretations. The last thing I would wanna see is a woman who wears a hijab and hates islam.
I hate being forced to do things and I hate to force others to do things based on my principles - no matter if my priciples are based on God's words.
[This message has been edited by BoSS (edited September 30, 2001).]
Dear Boss,
With this kind of attitude ...
[quote]
Roman: God be the judge and jury and if there is punishment or reward, that's between the individual and the God.
[/quote]
... one would think, that why does the USA bother to persue the WTC terrorists? Surely the judgement can be left to Allaah! And then there are many criminals who do not believe there is anything wrong with unlawful acts. If they were no laws laid down, then we would be living in Hell on earth.
And it is not as though the Divine Laws have not been laid down. It is all there in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah for those who sincerely wish to understand. And indeed, Allaah - the Most Just - will Judge by His Prescribed Laws and Regulations.
[quote]
I strongly believe that woman who are going to follow islam and who follow Gods commands will come through just fine. Why aren't they given a chance to follow religion or disregard it based on their interpretations.
[/quote]
Both men and women are free to follow their interpretations. But they also have to be prepared to pay the penalty if they are wrong ... so it is in our own best interest to sincerely search for the truth and most accurate sources of understanding - if we value our futures - while interpreting our lives.
... and Allaah knows best.
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited September 30, 2001).]
.
[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited September 30, 2001).]
As i said earlier, if it is in the best interest of the people as a whole and in the bettering of a society by protecting them - from evil or other external forces - then the decision lies with the state
Hasnain,
I don't agree that allowing women to decide for themselves if they want to wear hijab or not will jeopardize the stability or well-being of a whole society or a country. I think it's too far fetched and irrelevent speculation.
Hmm..some people forget that SAUDI ARABIA makes sure that ALL women are covered... They are also not allowed to drive a car
Hinna,
Like I said in my original post, "This topic of women in Afghanistan keeps poping up". That was mainly the reason I chose to focus on Taliban. Of course, if similar thing happens anywhere else in the world then same idea applies to it too.
Don't judge the specifity of a subject exclusivity of the other. (GfQ, that goes for your "I question that also" statement as well).
*Maybe its true, the government never required women to practice hijab, but their families did. Its not only a matter of religion, but a matter of honour for these people, to keep their women veiled and secluded from the gazes of outsiders. So much so that men are reluctant to unnecessarily reveal information regarding their female relatives, even something as simple as a name. Its a practice strongly influenced by culture, but echoes the teachings and examples shown to us in the sunnah.
Its true, many muslims don't follow Islam and the sunnah so strictly, and there's nothing wrong with that. But what really irritates me, is that when there is a people practicing such a strong committment to deen, the people who aren't as fastidious find it alright to criticize them.*
GfQ,
I thought I did make it clear couple of times in the thread before but let me try again.
I do not have any problem women wearing hijab or not wearing it. If somebody wants to stick to deen, good for him/her, just the same as for somebody who doesn't want to.
If those women want to wear hijab whether it's their culture or religion, that's up to them. If their families (husbands, fathers, mothers etc) want them to wear hijab, that's again between those women and their families. Practicing hijab as a cultural custom doesn't even come close to some of the other cultural practices like female circumscision that it can be criticized at a cultural level so I accept that in forming my opinion.
But when state or government or a similar authoratitve body imposes such practice as land of the law, that's wrong and totalitarian as observing hijab is an individual's choice to the degree of her religious abidence. And if there is a punishment by God for not observing hijab, then I hardly think that it's gonna be Un-hijabi women alone in the end.
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited September 30, 2001).]
... one would think, that why does the USA bother to persue the WTC terrorists? Surely the judgement can be left to Allaah! And then there are many criminals who do not believe there is anything wrong with unlawful acts. If they were no laws laid down, then we would be living in Hell on earth
Dear Hasnain,
I wish I didn't have to say this but there is a degree of severity with regards to every act. For example, murder cannot be contrued as an equal sin to, say, skipping fasting in Ramzan. I mean com'on, we can't be discussing the literals or semantics of an expression (and a very common one, mind you) and waste each others' time. Obviously, if there is a practice of knitpicking and argument for the sake of it then nobody gets anything out of it so what's the point?
women covering......why not ask the women of Afghanistan whether they want to cover or not??? or even better, put yourself in their situation and imagine how it is important to wear what they wear.
When a woman is free to wear a veil or not, depending on her understanding of the religious teachings, and not on pressure to do so or not, then I will consider it a free choice. Not when it is imposed (either way) by laws or prejudice. It should be a free choice.
Sure it should be one's decision....but then again one has right, say the husband of the women. It like the rights of a wife on her husband.
Dear Roman,
[quote]
I don't agree that allowing women to decide for themselves if they want to wear hijab or not will jeopardize the stability or well-being of a whole society or a country. I think it's too far fetched and irrelevent speculation.
[/quote]
That's becuase you haven't experienced living in certain societies. For sure in some societies it would lead to a degree of social unrest.
And just a point on tradition. It is not just 'a' tradition that the Afghanees practice, but more precisely, it is an Islaamic tradition based on Islamic Laws. And traditions based on Islaamic Law ought to be respected and implemented, becuase our Creator knows us better than we know ourselves.
Of course, you are right, there is a degree of severity with regards to every act (i was using an extreme example to put my point across). For sure, murder of the innocent is about the worst crime imaginable. However, the Taalibaan and many other Muslims would argue that there is a crime far worse - as-Shirk (Associating partners with Allaah, the only sin, that Allaah will not even be prapared to forgive. And in the eyes of the Taalibaan the US and the West have been guilty of this for centuries, but even then the Muslims have not tried to interefered with US culture, tradition or way of life. Crime rates are not high in the US and the West (such as assualt and rape of women) becuase of the Taaliban. It's becuase of US and Western culture itself. Even then the West has the nerve to tell the Afghanees how to run their lives. It will always try and oppose its laws on others, but through it's pride ans arrogance fail to recognise the Laws of Allaah, which should not be questioned in the first place. After all, Allaah did not just create the Muslims, but the whole of mankind. And Allaah did not just send His Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to a certain people, but to the whole of mankind.
So if the US or anyone else is sincere about life, it should implement its resouces (CIA, FBI and others) in finding out the purpose of life, rather than treating the lives of the innocent as a game.
.... and Allaah knows best.
Anyway, i have nothing more to say on this thread ... enough has been said, and may Allaah forgive me, and guide everyone to His Oneness.
&peace
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
you are funny
there was a demand few years back from Canadian women that if men are allowed to go out without "anything other than ‘pants’ then women should be allowed too… but guess what, it was declined… WHY??? is Canada also an OPPRESSIVE regime?
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
Hmm..
Islam consists of two types of commandments. One set of commandments are those that affect the society as a whole....and the other set of commandments are those that affect an individual alone.
Among those that affect society as a whole, the most prominent is Zakaat. Payment of Zakaat is mandatory on all muslims. If one doesnt pay zakat, he not only displeases Allah SWT, he creates disbalance in the society, since his zakaat will go towards helping some Muslim who is needy. And by witholding zakat, a muslim will be violating Huqooq ul Ibaad, rights of fellow beings. And we all know that Allah SWT has retained the authority to forgive us the violations of His rights, but He has NOT retained the right to forgive us the violations of humans rights. Those, according to Allah SWT, are only forgivable by the person whose rights you have usurped. And that is why imposition of such laws that affect other humans in particular, and society in general, is done by force in Islam. We have the example of Hazrat Abu Bakr RA, who pledged to take up arms against anyone who refused to pay zakat, since that was a societal responsibility, not an individual one.
Now coming to the other set of commandments that affect an individual alone. These are actions that we take solely for the pleasure of Allah SWT, period. Actions like praying salat, going for Hajj, taking Hijaab, growing a beard, fasting etc. Now if a person puts a gun to someones head and forces them to grow a beard, or does the same with a woman in terms of Hijaab, then the man may grow a beard, and the woman may wear a Hijab, but it will be out of fear of that gun, not the fear of Allah SWT, which in effect, not only nullifies the action u took, it also creates a couple of other unwanted scenarios....like shirk.
Hijab is mandatory on women in Islam. But it cannot be forced upon by humans. Prophet SAW never did it. Sahaba never did it. They preached it. Never enforced it. The only Islamic laws they enforced were those that affect a broader range of society, like payment of zakat. The only enforcement for laws like Hijaab or growing a beard can be done by a husband on his wife, or by a wife on her husband, if either feel that their spouse is deviating from Islam, that too out of a personal responsibility for the sake of Allah SWT.
However, the point regarding the difference in attitudes towards the Taliban compared to Saudi Arabia is also valid...since that shows the hypocrisy of the west....in how one country thats licking their feet is good even with a dictatorial monarchy, yet another country with similar laws is an enemy, since its not licking your feet. Its all about personal interests for the USA....not about humanitarian issues.
Roman
YougBrat, so you are saying that they are imposing the hijab on women out of some sort of cultural revolution not religion?
Revolution is when something new emerges, this has happened and was there. Going back to it is not only their obligation but also their right. All this bashing that you hear about it comes from people that have no traditional or cultural importance towards it.
How can you promote a cultural value by force? Culture propagates by people's choice and adoption, you can't force it.
Simply by making it a law. Why can’t people hang around naked on the streets of US while they can be naked anywhere else you can possibly think of? I’ll tell you why, because it’s considered immoral, not right!
When it is fine to show respect to ones way of life but at the same time it's ridiculous to show understanding towards others because it might not fit your personal agenda, is called hypocrisy son.
That's totalitarianism.
This might be in your dictionary, not theirs.
PS. munay, you are lucky I don't take below the belt (no pun intended) shots at others' mothers and sisters - don't serve your siblings on a platter like you did to me to those who won't hesitate taking a pot shot.
I would have said the same if you were my very own brother.
For some it is okay if their mothers are naked, and by the same token for some it might be substantial dishonor even by the sight of their women face.
PS2. Show some respect to your mother and sister, I'm sure they look up to you at least for something.
I consider your mother and sister as my very own. Now don’t be so haughty about simple means.
We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited October 05, 2001).]
Revolution is when something new emerges, this has happened and was there. Going back to it is not only their obligation but also their right. All this bashing that you hear about it comes from people that have no traditional or cultural importance towards it.
There is nothing wrong with going back to traditions or sustaining one's cultural heritage. This is also any society's right as well, as long as it does not in turn infringes upon people's free will to decide for themselves the degree to which they want to practice or not.
I criticize those equally who stereotype women in hijab and ignorantly consider it supperssion. Women have as much freedom of choice to wear hijab as they have in opting not to.
Simply by making it a law. Why can’t people hang around naked on the streets of US while they can be naked anywhere else you can possibly think of? I’ll tell you why, because it’s considered immoral, not right!
Because the law takes into consideration of pervailing societal mores and norms to the extent where it is desireable by the majority and where it does not infringes upon the freedom of expression rights. There is a big difference. Taking extreme case analogies also don't leave you anywhere, either way.
When it is fine to show respect to ones way of life but at the same time it's ridiculous to show understanding towards others because it might not fit your personal agenda, is called hypocrisy son.
I think I answered that in "Women have as much freedom of choice to wear hijab as they have in opting not to."
For some it is okay if their mothers are naked, and by the same token for some it might be substantial dishonor even by the sight of their women face.
You again have missed the point. I am not debating the culture specific to the practice of hijab or familial customs - that's a different discussion on its own. I suggest you re-read the whole thread - this time with eyes and mind open.
all this talk of taliban mistreating women are nothing but another form of muslim bashing
where were all these womens rights people when the russians were bombing the afghan women? where were these people when the afghan women were made widows?
where was cnn all these years why it didnt sow a documentry on afghan women when the usa was helping the taliban get in power?
all this is a big drama
[quote]
Originally posted by kabir:
all this talk of taliban mistreating women are nothing but another form of muslim bashing
where were all these womens rights people when the russians were bombing the afghan women? where were these people when the afghan women were made widows?
where was cnn all these years why it didnt sow a documentry on afghan women when the usa was helping the taliban get in power?
all this is a big drama
[/quote]
As asked before and nobody had the guts to reply: Are the treatment by the Taleban proper and fair towards the Afgani women or not?
I suppose the "plight" of the Afgani women are only now highlighted because for the first time the USA public are interested in the country and it can sell newspapers/airtime currently. There are a number of placed worldwide where the conditions of women are also bad but it will not sell...
[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:
** As asked before and nobody had the guts to reply: Are the treatment by the Taleban proper and fair towards the Afgani women or not?
.....**
[/quote]
In my humble opinion, Taleban are/were trying to put everything to a halt and 're-visit' once they put Afghanistan back on track towards development. I have seen videos of current Afghani women working in factory (carpet making) in burqa/veil, roaming in markets. I don't see any truth in propaganda about 'oppression of women'. The only 'oppression' the world is most concerned about is 'veil', and 'segregated education'. I have seen websites which showed women receiving education in 'current Afghanistan' though they were 'segregated', but whats wrong in segregation?
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?