Afghani women and veil

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

So what’s up with these Taliban dudes? This topic of women in Afghanistan keeps poping up. Why do these guys tell women to wear veil and enforce it as a law of the land?

Now, I know that women are asked to wear hijab or veil in Islam. Nothing wrong with that. But it seems to me that it’s something which is upto women. They chose to wear hijab, fine. They don’t chose to wear hijab, their will. It’s more like an individual decision to abide by what religion says to the extent one wishes to. Religion says a lot of other things and it is practically impossible to abide by every single one of them for every single person (unless, of course, it’s something at collective level and act of one harms the other). But for doctrines that are prescribed at individual level, God be the judge and jury and if there is punishment or reward, that’s between the individual and the God.

So, naturally, people follow some rules and don’t follow others. Where the heck these Taliban guys come in the picture to tell women they have to do it?

2

And under Taliban regime all men are cursed to grow a compulsory beard.

3

Dear Roman,

Quite an emotional chap aren't you?
What Muslims do inside of their own homes is totally up to them. But we should fear Allaah as much as possible, whatever it is that we do. However, as for on the streets and in public, the Muslimah must observe the Islaamic dress code, becuase their actions or the way in which they present themselves can also have an effect on others. If the women do not cover themselves in public, then this will cause men to stare at their beauty and attractions and for the women this may initially be no big deal, but men who cannot control their desires may fall into all kinds of sinful matters. You just have to look at the western world around you. Also in many societies, men do not like other men to stare at their wives, which could lead to all sorts of trouble.

So the laws of observing hijaab (from head to toe) for the Muslim woman is not just to protect herself from the evil lustful desires of some men, but also to protect society as a whole.

anand,

Turning this thread into a Taalibaan bashing session are you?

By growing beards, at least the Taalibaan look like men and not women. Hang on! Don't tell me you shave??? ooooooh!!!

*"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it." *

4

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2001).]

5

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2001).]

6

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2001).]

7

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2001).]

8

If the women do not cover themselves in public, then this will cause men to stare at their beauty and attractions and for the women this may initially be no big deal, but men who cannot control their desires may fall into all kinds of sinful matters

Well, it seems to me that it's men's responsibilty more than women's to do something about it. Problem is with men then. If men are that weak then they need to overcome their weaknesses.

Moreover, not all men are weak and do anything stupid out of such desires. As a matter of fact, in a closed society, this actually can have adverse effects. What's hidden is more obsessed with and can have more drastic effects.

As far as husbands not wanting other men staring at their wives, like I said before, my point is not to negate the idea behind hijab. I am sure if this a problem for a couple, they can very well decide upon the issue between themselves, whatever that compromise/decision may be.

I do not have any problems with women wearing hijab neither their not wearing it, it's upto the individual. I do, however, condemn any sort of imposition of any such religious practices that are an individual's own decision, and is enforced solely due to male dominance.

9

.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 30, 2001).]

10

I actually know of a case where the Taliban
actually beat a woman for shaving her beard!!!!

11

Roman lets put it this way, you don’t mind people checking out your mother and sister, but they do.

Want more? Just ask.

We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile

12

Btw, the veil aka Burqa is traditional, not religious. It only abides by the religious idea.

Ps.2 stop watching crap like behind the veil.

Ps.3 Hijab in Arabic means full body covering including the face. Ask a scholar.

We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile

13

Btw, the veil aka Burqa is traditional, not religious. It only abides by the religious idea.

YougBrat, so you are saying that they are imposing the hijab on women out of some sort of cultural revolution not religion?

How can you promote a cultural value by force? Culture propagates by people's choice and adoption, you can't force it. That's totalitarianism.

PS. munay, you are lucky I don't take below the belt (no pun intended) shots at others' mothers and sisters - don't serve your siblings on a platter like you did to me to those who won't hesitate taking a pot shot.

PS2. Show some respect to your mother and sister, I'm sure they look up to you at least for something.

14

Taliban is full of power hungry men who use religion to control people, just like the leaders of most cults.

15

Roman,

You're absolutely right. The problem is with the men. But you might also find the odd women who 'dress to kill' so to say. This is a lot more obvious here in the west than in our countries back home. However, this trend has also evolved over time in the West. During the reign of Queen Victoria in Britain two hundred years prior, there existed such a conservative society that it was made impermissible to even uncover the legs of tables. But today, this is no longer. Today, as you are well aware, things are a lot more liberal. This too can happen over time in regions like Afghanistan if they're not careful, which is precisely why certain codes ought to applied on the streets.

But these rules are laid down primarily due to the natural weakness/desire of man. This is exactly why Allaah has also ordered the man to lower his gaze. But obviously this is not enough to protect society as a whole. You're probably correct, not all men are the same when it comes to this issue. However, laws are made for societies at large.

[quote]
I do, however, condemn any sort of imposition of any such religious practices that are an individual's own decision, and is enforced solely due to male dominance.
[/quote]

This is an inacurate statement. As i said earlier, if it is in the best interest of the people as a whole and in the bettering of a society by protecting them - from evil or other external forces - then the decision lies with the state. Secondly, these laws are not prescribed due to male dominance - they are commanded by Allaah (SWT). When the verses of the veil were revealed, women did not wait to see what their husbands, fathers or other men said. They acted spontaneously and immediately picked up the nearest sheets and literally threw them over themselves. They clearly understood that this is Allaah's law and not man made law, thus acted in accordance and promptly.

Unfortunately, this no longer remains the case today. The West are waging a war against Allaah by influencing or trying to change opinion in conflict with Allaah's Laws and Regulations. They think their laws are superior and in line with social transition. They plot and they plan. And Allaah plots and He plans. And indeed Allaah is the best of planners.

kind regards

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

16

Hmm..some people forget that SAUDI ARABIA makes sure that ALL women are covered. If you have been there you would know that many of the local women wear black jilbabs and cover their entire face. Women are also not allowed to work unless they are doctors. They are also not allowed to drive a car.

If you are not properly covered, people will come running after you shouting "HARAM HARAM HARAM" until you cover or remove something that is inappropriate.

How come that isn't seen as "oppression" in the West???

Everyone just likes to target the Taliban because they don't kiss American ass.

[This message has been edited by Hinna (edited September 30, 2001).]

17

well said Hinna!!

I personally feel sorry when everyone starts debates on religious topics without actual knowledge

just read Quraan check what was the way of living of real muslims and then pass comments on taliban or anyone else

nobody bothers if you don't practice islam but then don't say u are muslim

islam is a code of lifenot a religion to be practiced in churches only

18

I have been doing some research lately and have consulted some scholars.

What I have found out is:
there are many interpretations of what the veil is, what is supposed to cover, but the Qur'an does not under any circumstances require women to cover their faces. This is apparently a practise introduced by persians.

The Qur'an does not recommend any penalty/punishment for women who do not cover their heads. That is in itself significant.

Men and women are told to guard their glances, which is at least as important as the dress code.

19

sister Shirin,

With all due respect, according to the scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jam'aah, then there are clearly not many opinions on this subject.

As to the definition of the veil, from the verses of the Qur'aan, then there is a general agreement amongst the scholars that the covering of the women implies from head to toe. This explantion can be found in ibn Katheer's tafseer along with many other mufasireen (scholars of interpretation of the Qur'aan) of both past and present.

However, with regards to the exact details of veiling the hands and the face, then there are only two opinions which exist. Bringing into focus these two differences from prominent scholars of more recent times, Shaikh Ibn Baaz and Shaikh Uthaymeen (raheem ahumAllaah) are with the opinion that it is compulsory for the women to cover their hands and faces. One of the evidences being for this, that the wives of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) practiced this. They would veil their faces whenever they left their houses.

However Shaikh al-Albaani (raheemahullaah) has said that it is preffered for the females to cover their faces, but it is not obligatory. I don't know the exact evidence for this, but i have heard it is in light of Western and European situations, through analgy of various ahadeeth (Allaah knows best). This is the minimal requirement. Nevertheless, even though this is his opinion, it is known for his wife and daughters to cover themselves fully including the hands and the face.

So these are the two opinions. We can take either one, but we must be careful not to turn to a third, and try and stick by the scholars of understanding, who are, as the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wassalam) said the inheritors of the prophets.

[quote]
The Qur'an does not recommend any penalty/punishment for women who do not cover their heads. That is in itself significant.
[/quote]

This may be so, but we know as Muslims, that when Allaah or His Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) command something, it becomes obligatory upon us as Muslims. And all obligations are to be sincerely fulfilled as far as possible. And we know that by not fulfilling such core commandments we become sinful. And we know that sinful matters lead to punishment (as the Prophet (saw) explained). And we know that if we escape punishment in this world, then we will receive it in the Hereafter, unless we sincerely repent for it (again as explained by the Prophet (saw)). So as Muslims, if we sincerely believe in Allaah and the Last Day, then we should try our utmost to follow his commandments if we wish to be free of all punishment - both of this world and the Hereafter.

... and Allaah knows best.

kind regards

"no leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

20

Hasnain,

the interpretation of the Quran is clearly subject to the prevailing cultural practices of the period in which it was interpreted. Also, the scholars are somehow always men.

I am astonished when I hear that women are asking for fatwas to be permitted to go out without hijab because of fears of being identified as muslims. Why does a man have to give this permission? It is between a woman and Allah. Are women so subject to a man's approval that even common sense is ruled by men's opinions?

Yesterday I read some scholar's works where he says that as women's feet are sexually stimulating they should wear sandals with socks!!!!

Reflect honestly for a while on what personal opinions and biases could mean in interpreting the written word.

There is a good deal of information regarding the cultural connotations of translations of the Qur'an, slight differences in verbs and nouns can mean a lot.

Some extracts from Asghar Ali Engineer's article on the veil in Islam (sorry I don't think it's on the net) :

In pre-Islamic period since the Arabs belonged to different tribes, the tribal women did not cover their breasts and also many of them would publicly display their sexual charms zeenah; wear anklets and would, in the market place beat their feet to attract attention of men. Since Islam was basically a civilising mission and gave greater dignity to women lifting their status from being mere chattles and sexual objects to dignified humans enjoying equal rights with men, it prescribed certain norms of behaviour and style of dressing. The Qur’anic prescriptions should be seen in that light in order to appreciate its main thrust.

....

Also, to deal with the problem of displaying one's sexual charms (zeenah) publicly the Qur’an said that “And say to the believing women that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions and do not display their adornment except what appears thereof.” (24:31) Thus what the Qur’an is prohibiting is to display ones adornment publicly. And here too the Qur’an makes an important exception i.e. “except what appears thereof”. Thus women are not asked to hide everything publicly. What should appear publicly, should appear.

Most of the ‘Ulama and Islamic jurists maintain that the phrase “except what appears thereof” means a woman can keep her face and hands open and that she can apply collyrium to her eyes and can wear ring in her fingers and bangle in her hands and display the same. Tabari, an important commentator of the Qur’an maintains this in his commentator on this verse.  

Other ‘Ulama also concur with him on this issue and let us remember any interpretation of the Qur’an is mediated by sociological and cultural factors. Had those commentators lived in our times when social and cultural changes have taken place would have interpreted this verse even more liberally in favour of women. Thus even the medieval commentators have permitted women to keep their faces and hands open. Today women should have even greater measure of freedom. But even going by the medieval interpretation and conforming norms laid down by medieval jurists Muslim women should be allowed to move about publicly without veiling their faces.

In Iran women do wear hijab but in keeping with the above verse of the Qur’an, are not compelled to hide their faces and hands. They wear an overall and cover their heads. The women in Iran enjoy considerable degree of freedom. They are far from confined at home. They are quite active publicly, are members of parliament and one of them is also vice president of the Iranian Islamic Republic.

The Qur’an, in another verse, also prescribes that women cover their breasts with the sheet of cloth which she wears (24:31) Thus it will be seen that when the Qur’an is asking women to cover their bosoms with their head-coverings how can it ask women to cover their faces? Covering bosoms is much more dignified for a woman and hence this is being prescribed by the Qur’an. Maulana Muhammad Ali of Lahore comments on this verse as follows: “Before Islam women used to appear in public with their breasts partly uncovered…and women were thus required to cover their breasts with a part of their head-covering as worn in the East conceals the arms, the neck and the bosom, as also the ornaments worn in the ears or on the neck or over the bosom…”

It should also be noted that the Qur’an permits to display her adornments before her husband, her parents, her other relatives with whom she cannot marry. However, more important to note is that this prescription by the Qur'’n does not follow by any punishment for not following the Qur’anic prescription. Some even maintain that the nature of verses in this regard is recommendatory rather than mandatory.

How can then anyone enforce veil forcibly on women? The very nature of threat is un-Islamic and un-Qur’anic.

Let's think about it and not feel threatened by someone who thinks differently.