Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
So basically the quran is not for the ordinary man to understand?
Also if we should just listen to alims without questioning then no one should blame shias for interpreting quran and ahadith differently than sunnis.
You might as well put a blindfold over your eye and jump over a cliff if the Alim said so…
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Code_Red: i completely understand and agree with your take on the issue!
to be honest, reading the Ahaadees before ur posts, somehow
munaafiqs of that time, in wars etc. came to my minds..
u've given references, and it all makes sense..wish it did to
everyone..hope it does
MashaAllah and keep it up i.e. educating the readers of gupshup
:D
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
so what's the majority verdict: U can check in but can't check out gangsetrs style or u have freedom of checking out too a decent religious freedom style.......
sounds like majority believe the fomrer although there are few voices endorsing the later too.......
this is really sad situation and I can see the problem of co-existance for islam with others .......
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Walikum salam Stomp !
I can understand where you are comming from
There are millions of muslims among us who treat holey quran as a story book, and ignore it completely as if the commands therein are nothign more than a joke !
You attitude suggests that you dont give a damn to what Allah has ordered in quran and you will blindly follow these so-called Alims while they spread ignorance.
you said
Now please for once explain to me the meaning of this verse of holy quran
This is next verse to famous Ayat-al-Kursi.
If you feel that you are not capable enough to understand and explain this simple verse then please refer to your favorite aalim and get explaination done and post it here. And do explain your statement in light of this verse ( the bold part of your statement I quoted in this post )
^^ Please support your statement with quranic verse or saying of prophet (pbuh) that a normal muslim is incapable of understanding quran or any such restrictions . thanks
If this is your own opinion, then I am afraid you are wrong.
On a side note if you are refering to my interpetetion of verses of holy quran then please note that it is common understanding of noteworthy scholars including Moulana Moudodi. I have not tried to interpret on my own 
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
this is really sad situation and I can see the problem of co-existance for islam with others .......
Excuse me, but that's really a laugh.
When Syrians can execute tens of thousands of men/women/children to the approval of notable commentators in the West, when Chechnyans can be slaughtered by the city full, when Thais can throw in a bunch of random Muslims into a trailer and have them suffocate to death, when murderers can be propped up to form an Afghan government, when simply looking like a religious Muslim can get you killed in this so-called war on terror, when American bombs can shred Iraqi 4 year olds to bits...all with at best an "ooops", or typically silence from those who are expressing indignation in this case...then I think the co-existence problem has well manifested itself before this little incident...
I suggest you not be so cynical...and keep things in perspective.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
All what you said is as condemnable as this one.... or may be more.....
Are you quoting all these to justify the killing of this man?
In that case you are indirectly justifying all the above incidents?
A wrong doesn't justify another wrong...
So come and please sit with me to condemn this and I am sitting with you to condemn all you have mentioned above..........
If you don't condemn this don't except world to stand by you and condemn above. When you don't condemn Jews and Christians and Hindus being abused and called Pigs, Infidel and Kafir. Dont expect world to stand by you and condemn cartoons or when you get abused...
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
So now its about majority, not about what's right...
Than Hitler was right since majority of Germans supported his interpretation of Aryan Supermacy........
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
does it mean all arab christian were chritians before islam otherwise they would not be any christians?
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Qu’ran is for all of humanity. However, you can’t pick the Qu’ran up and try to interpret parts of it yourself. Say if you don’t understand something in the Qu’ran then you should get the opinion of a scholar. You can’t say well I don’t understand this part but I THINK it means this.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
This is exactly what scholars do...and the last I checked, there is no prescribed method in the Quran or the Hadith as to what one must do to become a scholar, so it is open to anyone and everyone.
The established intellectual traditions are after the advent of Islam, and were done by our equals, and not sacred figures.
Having said that, if one wants to change the intellectual paradigm, they need a damn good argument to make their case.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Salaam’ I do not take it as a joke. However only an alim can interpret the Qur’an especially the bits you do not understand. I will give you an example say you’re in school and you have a text book on a subject and then comes a part you don’t understand are you going to interpret it yourself? Or are you going to go to your teacher and ask him what it means so there is no ambiguity?
I’ve mention it earlier that some scholars do not agree with the killing and the majority do. Some scholars believe the person should not be killed and that Allah will give him the punishment himself.
Here is a areticle, by the Islamic Scholar Haroon Yahya he is a renowned scholar:
http://www.harunyahya.com/unwise02.php
This article will explain everything, on interpreting the Qur’an and who is best skilled to interpret the Qu’ran. Please take the time to read all the article then you will understand what I am trying to explain here.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
It is stated in the verses of the Qur'an that one has to have the wisdom, understanding and comprehension provided by God in order to discover its correct meanings. God's messenger, the Prophet Muhammad, also mentioned this in a hadith:
Abdullah bin Umar narrated that God's Messenger (saas) said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom God has given wealth and he spends it in the right way; and that of a man whom God has given religious wisdom (i.e., Qur'an and Sunnah) and he gives his verdicts according to it, and teaches it to others." (Bukhari 9/419 and 6/543)
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Abdullah bin Umar narrated that God's Messenger (saas) said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom God has given wealth and he spends it in the right way; and that of a man whom God has given religious wisdom (i.e., Qur'an and Sunnah) and he gives his verdicts according to it, and teaches it to others." (Bukhari 9/419 and 6/543)
In the case of the Quranic revelation, it was to distinguish between those who had learned the faith and committed Quran to memory, and those who were newcomers to it. There was no scholarly class (as we understand the term today), as all knowledge back then came from the Rasool (saw).
The saying of Hazrat Umar should be taken in the same light...
What we call scholarship today was formulated and canonized well after that period, and so your 'evidence' is a) misleading and b) incorrect. The paradigm of Shariah, the methodology for considering the validity of Hadith, and so on were not solidified until well after, so really...you need to validate your stance by your arguments, not invocation of out-of-context references.
It would suffice to say that until one satisfies certain minimum requirements, like an understanding of the nuances of Arabic, then one can't be taken seriously as a scholar. But let there be no doubt, all existing schools of thought, and the way we arrived at them, are religious innovations as it does not come directly from the tradition of the Prophet. Even more basic a requirement, one can't take any scholar seriously if they refuse to be intellectually honest about this.
So the question is, who can become a scholar? The answer is, anyone with sufficent dedication...and no, one doesn't have to stick to the traditional schools to be a 'scholar', as there is no established meta-tradition on how to be a scholar.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
walikum salam
Thank for the link to the article. I fully understand that a common man with limited understanding should not try to interpret verses of holy quran , but at the same time this holy book is for mankind and most of the parts do not require interpretation as you are putting it
for example :
Kul ho Allah hu Ahad (Say God is One )
The meaning is crystal clear no need of any interpretation
But another verse
*Inna Atyena Kal kousar *
Most of us may require explaination to understand this verse
I am a common muslim. I do not interpret verses of holy quran. And I have not done it in the above mentioned case. I have just put accross the verse and its translation and the verse explains its meaning very clearly, their is no ambiguity at all ( if you are biased then it is another case )
I have mentioned the name of a renowned scholar in my post who explained the verse as it is. Here is another explaination from very famous **tafseer ibn e kathir **
I can still anticipate a denial, because most of us are afraid of quran as if it is only for some privilaged one to ‘understand’ and we common muslim are capable only of parroting** and we love to remain bounded in mental / intellectual slavery of mortals like us** 
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Top Islamic clerics and scholars want the Christian convert to be hanged. If not they will incite people to “pull him to pieces”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html
Top Muslim clerics: Convert must die
Religious leaders urge courts to ignore West, hang Christian
Friday, March 24, 2006; Posted: 12:24 a.m. EST (05:24 GMT)
Television footage shows Abdul Rahman being interviewed last week during a hearing in Kabul.
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) – Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to “pull him into pieces.”
In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a “favorable resolution” of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan’s Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.
His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.
“Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die,” said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.
The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he is “deeply troubled” by the case and expects Afghanistan to “honor the universal principle of freedom.” (Watch how Rahman’s case troubles the West – 1:17)
Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country.
Her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country was unusual. But in deference to the country’s sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.
“This is clearly an Afghan decision,” McCormack said.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.
Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.
But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul’s most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.
“He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian,” said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque. “The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed.”
Raoulf, who is a member of the country’s main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. “The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled.”
“Cut off his head!” he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. “We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there’s nothing left.”
He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.
But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.
“If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too,” he said. “We must set an example. … He must be hanged.”
The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman’s freedom.
“We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don’t interfere in this issue,” Nasri said. “We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us.”
Afghanistan’s constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.
Hamidullah warned that the government would lose the support of the people if it frees Rahman, and “there will be an uprising” like the one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.
Human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a “prisoner of conscience” and that the charges should be dropped.
Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.
It was not immediately clear when Rahman’s trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
There was once a time when people were persecuted for converting to islam (Muhammad's time). These persecuters were in the "dark ages"
Now Muslims kill those that convert.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Afghan Christian convert may be freed
Friday, March 24, 2006; Posted: 3:39 p.m. EST (20:39 GMT)
Afghanistan
(CNN) -- An Afghan man possibly facing execution for converting from Islam to Christianity is expected "to be released in the coming days," a source with detailed knowledge of the case said Friday.
Word of Abdul Rahman's release comes after days of international pressure and the day before the Afghan Cabinet was scheduled to discuss the case of the 41-year-old father of two. On Thursday, top Afghan clerics urged Muslims to kill Rahman if the government freed him.
Speaking Friday to reporters in Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the U.S. government is working with Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government to free Rahman.
Rahman is charged with rejecting Islam by converting to Christianity, an offense that can be punishable by death under the Afghan constitution, which is based in sharia, or Islamic law. Rahman reportedly converted 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international nongovernmental organization.
But the case has illustrated a split in Afghanistan over the interpretation of the constitution, which calls for religious freedom while stating that Muslims who reject Islam can be executed.
Even moderate Muslims are incensed by Rahman's conversion, as top clerics on Thursday called for his execution.
"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," cleric Abdul Raoulf told The Associated Press. Raoulf has long been considered a moderate and was often at odds with the Taliban, which jailed him three times before the hard-line group's ouster in 2001. (Read about clerics joining Raoulf in calling for Rahman's death)
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
LOL... We wont allow God to be humiliated... IDIOT!
What about all the humiliation God and Islam have to undergo at the hands of all these moronic extremists?!?!?
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
That man was a medical worker. He probably helped save many lives, but now he faces death sentence.
The clerics who are giving him the death sentence are fat, overweight guys who do nothing but eat, sleep, recite Koran and give fatwas.
What is their contribution to humanity ? What right do they have to give that poor man a death sentence ?
Suppose I stay at a hotel, but decide to switch to another one. Does that mean I'm "insulting" the first hotel ? I just have a different taste or different liking.
Similarly, if that man converted to Christianity, he just thought that he can follow its tenets better and get closer to God by its teachings, thats all. Whats the big fuss ?
It means that those clerics have low self-esteem and cannot respect others' decisions.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
THis is really funny, these mullahs have made GOD so weak that a mere mortal can humilate him....:D
<< My apologies for a smiley on such a sad thread, but somehow couldn't stop myself>>