Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Now the question arises had the founder enough faith in those preachings he hadn't made this provision of death penalty in first place.. tells u alot about religious dicates where they tell u kill and so and so innocent or guilt.. hey if he is guilty god will take care of him........ there is no need to kill anyone and if u still feel the need may be there is not enough belief in god in first pplace and it's all make-believe stories that's all
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Thanks for the reference. I just glanced through and it does seem a very thorough piece from an Islamitic perspective.
Coming back to what I earlier wrote: Does a Muslim feel obligated to try and establish some of the values of the Islamitic Law (Sharia) when they arive in a new non-Muslim country? What would be the most important issues to be pushed?
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
How about you learn to show some respect? look at my profile I study religion.
Here is a fatwa from Islamic Scholars:
Here look at this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Rechtsgutachten_betr_Apostasie_im_Islam.jpg
“Allah’s Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9, book 83, number 17, narrated via Abdullah)
Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’” — Volume 4, Book 52, Chapter 149, Number 260. p. 160-161.
The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said: — ‘How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the Apostle (Muhammad) was true, and that Clear Signs had come unto them? And Allah does not guide the wrong-doing people. As for such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, the Angels, and of all mankind. They will abide there-in (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened nor it will be postponed (for a while). Except for those that repent after that and make amends. Verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Surely those who disbelieved after their belief, and go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted, and they are those who have gone astray.’ (Sura 3:86-90) — Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, p. 42-43.
57. Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” — Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, Number 57, page 45
58. Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’” — Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, Number 58, p. 45-46.
271. Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle. — Volume 9, Book 89, Chapter 12, Number 271, p. 201.
The above hadeeth have been quoted from Al-Bukhari, The Translation of the Meaning of Sahih Al-Bukhari, Translated by M.M. Khan, Dar AHYA Us-Sunnah, Al Nabawiya, (Arabic & English), vol. 4 and 9.
Is that enough information for you?
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Ppl.. ohhhh ppl.. The poeple of afghanistan didnt ask judge to give him death penalty but his own family went to court to give his son death penalty 
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
The Old Man,
Your question regarding if Muslims feel obligated to follow the Sharia in non-Muslim countries is a complex one and Muslims themselves have struggled with it from the beginning mainly for the reason that Sharia has never been a monolithic doctrine. Different schools of thoughts have given different decrees on the obligations of a Muslim living in a non-Muslims land or how he should conduct his life, etc. When Islamic jurisprudence was active, technical terms like Dar-ul-harab were coined and strict rules and regulations spanning from ethics of business, law and social conduct were devised for Muslims dealing with friendly non-Muslim nations and hostile non-Muslim nations. You have look at it from the perspective that in those days religion dictated citizenship, and religious jurisprudence was the law of the land, unlike the case in most Muslim countries now.
Anyway, most schools of thought claim that Muslim living in a Non-Muslim country is subject to its laws and thus follow it as long as they do not contradict with Islamic laws. This is a very open ended policy because what is contradictory and what isn’t becomes a personal opinion.
Attia,
Many girls are put to death in countries all over the world because their families think that by running away from home they have dishonored and insulted them. It has more to do with cultural taboos and pressure from the society on the family to act in such cruel ways than the act of eloping with someone else. Just because the family is for it, doesn’t mean that honor killing is the right thing to do, just like killing someone for apostasy is cruel and inhumane.
And as far as insult is concerned, I can safely say that you have insulted my pristine religion Islam in this very thread a few times, if insulting was punishable by death, I have every right to take your life.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
I personally could care less who joins or doesnt join me in my religous beliefs… But you right, some may actually would be pleased to see other join their faith, (more as a self centered validation of ones own beliefs then any desire to save anyones soul…) but how does that justify useing force against those who dont accpet your faith? Tolerance doesnt mean you have to accpet something only that you tolerate it. This is a classic case of intolerance your defending here.
And your understanding of Islam in this context is just like a gang. You can eneter it but leave at your own expense… How is it any different?
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
i think i already explained about this gang thingy.. islam means peace and who eva wants to leave peace will face suffer right? it is not any type of gang :)
Well some people take it too personal and try to harm the person who actually convert.... As i said before i personally don't want him to get death penalty...but iam just telling u why some people would want to give him death penalty.... It is mostly his own family who want him to get death penalty not the government of Afghanistan...
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Attia,
Many girls are put to death in countries all over the world because their families think that by running away from home they have dishonored and insulted them. It has more to do with cultural taboos and pressure from the society on the family to act in such cruel ways than the act of eloping with someone else. Just because the family is for it, doesn’t mean that honor killing is the right thing to do, just like killing someone for apostasy is cruel and inhumane.
And as far as insult is concerned, I can safely say that you have insulted my pristine religion Islam in this very thread a few times, if insulting was punishable by death, I have every right to take your life.
Ahmad as i said before.. i don't want him to have death penalty.. and about his family.. i just heard it and thought to add it in this thread to more clearify the situation...
and about insulting.. i don't think i did so...about taking my life for insulting anything is totally wrong.. please read my first post where i said he is already going to hell wat is the point of hurting him in this world..
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
What Attia is saying guys..
I don't want death penalty, but he should be given death penalty......... This is highest form of duplicacy I have seen till now in my life..
Anyway..
It looks like that there is a strong case here as per Islam/Quaran to given Death Penalty. In that case as I said earlier, ofcourse rest of world sees Islam as a hardline religion.....
"You can check in can't check out ---- Attia, that is one of the principles of Chicago Gangs, on which theory Gang's were formed."
Hopefully some liberal reformist would look for challenging somethings written and Quaran in won't be murdered. The questioning of older text has happened in each faith on peril of the people of that faith...So Islam will also go through this cycle..
My final count on this, giving death penalty to him is barbarian, will again show to rest of the world that Islam can't exist with other religion so its US or YOU...
That impression is already gaining ground big time...
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
==================================
So many confusing statements together. Each of these statements are indefensible.
Lets see, Islam means, " submission" not “peace”. Fix your vocabulary.
people are not taking it personally but it is the Shariah law as interprested by Islamic authorities.
So his family has the authority to give him death penalty…
Question here for the islamic minded people is to think if they should keep being apologetic about inhumane and barbaric practices in the name of Islam. It is taboo for them to denounce anything with the labe of their religion due to the fear of being outcaste and apostate for speaking the truth.
They should get out of this shell and think first as a human being and being muslim second. If there is a Islamic principle which is outright against basic human rights , they should condemn it even if it has label of Islam on it.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Death could await Christian convert
U.S. lawmaker: Christian-conversion prosecution 'outrageous'
Wednesday, March 22, 2006; Posted: 1:03 a.m. EST (06:03 GMT)
.......................Rahman's case illustrates a split over the interpretation of the Afghan constitution, which calls for religious freedom while stating that Muslims who reject Islam can be executed................
Allies indignant
The U.S. has 23,000 troops in the country; Germany has 2,700. Canada has 2,300 stationed there, and Italy has 1,775, according to Reuters.
All four nations have expressed displeasure over the situation, some even saying that it is intolerable that soldiers of all faiths die to protect a country threatening to kill its own for converting to Christianity.
Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga wrote a letter to Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, urging him to withdraw Italian troops from Afghanistan unless Kabul guarantees Rahman's safety, Reuters reported.
"It is not acceptable that our soldiers should put themselves at risk or even sacrifice their lives for a fundamentalist, illiberal regime," Cossiga wrote.
Rep. Tom Lantos, the ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, wrote a letter to Karzai asking him to intervene and uphold "core democratic principles and fundamental human rights."
"In a country where soldiers from all faiths, including Christianity, are dying in defense of your government, I find it outrageous that Mr. Rahman is being prosecuted and facing the death penalty for converting to Christianity," Lantos wrote.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Well, the point here is that regardless of whether he will suffer upon leaving this so called peace (funny how little of Islams peace we in the Islamic republic), is not up to us to decide… His family and the govt of Afghanistan have absolutely NO right to do this to him… His case is between him and his lord.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
For those who feel that God will take care of him if he converts, look at it this way: He's already converted to Christianity. Where do Islamic laws figure now? He was worshipping God, calling Him Allah previously, he's going to continue worshipping Him, but call Him Christ instead. Do you think Allah/Jesus is going to punish him for that. When He won't, what rights do mere mortals have? Shouldn't they instead turn to those who violate the Sharia in a land that always wanted to bring the real faith to its people.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Attia ! you are quite confused yourself. And in the halo of confusion it is almost imposble to convince oneself let alone anyone else. You should clear your concepts first 
Stomp !
If you are a student of religion ( I assume by religion you mean ‘Islam’) I would advise you to be very carefull in representing Islamic point of view and do not put it across loosely. you said
But your supporting fatwa contradicts your claim
[quote]
*
*If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished. In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
[
*
Although this fatwa is wrong in the light of Quran, but still it refutes you claim (read underlined part )
*It is alrgiht we all make mistakes but wise ones aomong us do learn from their mistakes *](“http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S…=1119503544134”)
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Stomp - You being the student of religon (Islam) I assume that you are aware of the basic rule in Islmaic Jurisdiction :
**It is a very common rule in Islam that if you need guidance regarding any issue, you look in the holy Quran and if you do not find anything in the holy quran then you look in hadees and sunnah and then ijtehaad.
**—
Second rule
**Quran is supreme authority of jurisdiction, in Islamic Shariah. **
If any hadees is contradicting quranic order then it must not be followed, most probably it would be a false one.
Now REad and understand how quran forbids killing an apostate and authentic hadees endorse it.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=189504
Now please ask question(s), if you have any :flower1:****
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Salaam’ Allah and Jesus (pbuh) are not the same, Jesus (Isa) Christ (pbuh) was a prophet, Allah is the lord of all humans including all the prophets and everything that exist in the universe and beyond, Allah is not confined to time, space or matter. He is beyond everything. Christians on the other can believe Jesus Christ (pbuh) is Allah, this is not true and anyone who believes this is committing Shrik, the unforgivable sin or associating partners with Allah.
Like I mentioned earlier, under Sharia Law, if the person doesn’t revert back to Islam, then he/she has to be killed under Sharia Law this is the opinion however some scholars don’t agree but you have to go with the majority ruling and the majority ruling is the person should be killed, this is what majority of scholars believe.
A normal Muslim, cannot interpret the holy Qu’ran himself, you have to listen to the scholar (Alim) even if you think he is wrong.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Salaam’
Sorry I think I should have made my self more clear, I made a mistake what I meant to say was that you can’t keep leaving Islam and coming back. Then you fall into the category of a hypocrite.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Salaam’ I don’t know about you. But the majority of scholars state otherwise, and you must go with the majority. I am a Sunni Muslim and I would follow the majority opinion of killing.
Re: Afghan Christian convert could face death
Also, I am not just a student of Islam I study all religions - I am a student of Theology to be more precise.
