Adopt the British way, urges Dr Lodhi

I quite agree with the attached. Pakistani Embassdors have never really sought to make a real difference in inter communal relations - it seems Dr Lodhi has more sense. I’ve always felt there was a deep sense of ‘ghettoised - inward looking - protectionist culture’ amongst Pakistani’s living in the North which is mixed up with trying to preserve their version of Islamic values (in fact this is the case not just in the North but wherever there are ghetto’s including parts of London). Hope Dr Lodhi can stir some debate and action.

http://www.ypn.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=892136

Adopt the British way, Pakistan’s envoy urges’Modern attitudes will beat the extremists’
Rob Waugh
BRITISH Pakistanis living in Yorkshire should be more prepared to embrace the British way of life and not isolate themselves from mainstream society, says Pakistan’s High Commissioner to the UK.
In an exclusive interview with the Yorkshire Post, Dr Maleeha Lodhi warns that an unwillingness to integrate runs the risk of playing into the hands of Right-wing extremists such as the British National Party (BNP), who have used segregation between communities to fuel tensions.
She also fears segregated communities give Muslim extremists more opportunity to prosper.
But Dr Lodhi, who is recognised as one of Pakistan’s most influential voices, said that the road to integration had to run both ways and indigenous communities here need to be “open-minded and open-hearted” towards the Pakistani community to pave the way towards better relations between the two.
The High Commissioner, who will visit the region in the New Year, expressed her views against a backdrop of tense community relations in West Yorkshire in recent years including rioting among the Asian community in Bradford and a significant advance by the far-Right BNP which won four seats on Bradford Council in June.
The Ouseley report, released in the aftermath of the rioting, emphasised the issue of segregated white and Asian communities and the social problems this division was causing.
Expressing forthright views on the need for the Pakistani community to become more progressive, and less tethered to outdated views, Dr Lodhi said that attitudes towards the role of women needed to change. They should be treated as equal partners and not hidden away in the family home, she said.
To press home the point, Dr Lodhi said she would refuse to address any male-only audiences when she visits Keighley at the invitation of local Labour MP Ann Cryer.
She also said the use of English, and learning the language, should be encouraged in the home as early as possible to help improve relatively-poor educational achievement among Pakistani children.
The High Commissioner questioned the continuing practice of bringing marriage partners in from the sub-continent, saying it was common sense that young Pakistanis already living in the UK were more likely to be compatible with each other.
As a high-profile figure, both in Pakistan and overseas, Dr Lodhi’s views carry considerable weight. She has previously been her country’s ambassador to the US, and in 2002, she was selected for inclusion in a list of world figures changing the world, published by Newsweek.
Ten years ago, Time magazine selected her as one of the 100 people most likely to set the political agenda for the 21st century.
Speaking passionately about her wish for greater integration, Dr Lodhi said: "You can integrate without assimilating, so you are part of British society. You should be good British citizens, you should be part of this society.
“And nobody’s asking you to give up your religion, your culture, your traditions, but if you want to have an influence and an impact on this society you must be part of that society. You cannot isolate yourself and then expect people to listen to what your grievances are.”
Community leaders broadly welcomed Dr Lodhi’s comments. But there was a significant gap between their perception of progress, and the experiences of Mrs Cryer and a large number of Pakistani women – and increasingly, men – in her constituency who are seeking help because they feel coerced into arranged marriages.
Mrs Cryer, who has doggedly campaigned for a greater recognition of some of the problems affecting the Asian community in Keighley, said she was delighted a Pakistani woman of international standing had supported what she described as a lonely seven-year battle since she was first elected.
In 2001, when the Keighley MP voiced her belief that bringing in poorly-educated partners from the sub-continent, with little or no English, was effectively “importing poverty”, her views were described as “sinister” by Shahid Malik, then a member of the Commission for Racial Equality, and now prospective Labour Party candidate for Dewsbury.
When Home Secretary David Blunkett took up her theme of immigrants embracing Britishness and the importance of learning English, he was accused of pandering to the Right wing.
Last night, Mrs Cryer said: “I am very much in agreement with what Dr Lodhi is saying. I may not say things as diplomatically as she does, but we are saying very similar things.”

[email protected]
20 November 2004

very well said and i hope muslims in UK will listen to her message.

what is the british way?

[Edited]

Stop quoting and promoting HT. Any further attempts to link stuff from that website, will result in formal warning points to you which may lead to ban from GUPSHUP. Any questions, contact Admin.

Bacon butties and a pint, I know lodhi likes her g and t's too.

I spent 3 months living in Yorkshire and was pretty surprised at how desis (predominantly Pakistanis) had managed to set up isolated communities there, as opposed to London where they are much more integrated.

As a Pakistani in the UK, I've always been deeply opposed to that kind of mentality and believe that as Doctor Lodhi says, it's unhealthy and leads to mistrust and tension. Desis in the UK should not isolate themselves from the rest of society, it has only led to social difficulties for those communities that have done so.

Agree with the point that...

Isolating from the greater society creates tension.

The greater society should also ignore tension and invite.

As the old saying goes......

Takes two...to Tango.

‘Muslims must learn to fit in’: Pakistan envoy

‘Muslims must learn to fit in’: Pakistan envoy

Jason Burke, chief reporter
Sunday November 21, 2004
The Observer

Pakistan’s high commissioner has pleaded with Britain’s south Asian Muslim community to make greater efforts to integrate in the UK - and with ‘broader society’ to help them.While stressing the ‘huge contribution’ made by the British Pakistani community, Dr Maleeha Lodhi said a failure to integrate could play into the hands of extremists. ‘This is a very dynamic community that has been changing a huge amount over the past few decades,’ Lodhisaid. 'It is not in crisis, but there are challenges of modernity.

‘There are certain media characterisations of Muslims in the West,’ Lodhi, a former newspaper editor who has represented her country in Washington, said. ‘I am saying, “Stand up. Don’t let others define you or misdefine you”.’ Her call follows remarks she made last week to the Yorkshire Post, when she urged British Pakistanis to learn English and ‘be good British citizens’. She also criticised conservative attitudes to marriage and the role of women among some sections of the British Pakistani community, saying that women should be treated as equal partners and not ‘hidden away’ in the family home.

‘You can integrate without assimilating so you are part of British society,’ Lodhi said, adding she believed that ‘modern attitudes’ would ‘beat the extremists’ - both racists and Muslim radicals. Lodhi’s comments were welcomed by Ann Cryer, the Labour MP for Keighley, who has campaigned against forced marriages, and by local community leaders.

Lodhi’s intervention comes at a time when community relations in Europe are tense. Last month’s murder of a controversial Dutch film-maker by a young Dutch Muslim extremist sparked violence that included the bombing of mosques. Previously, the ‘Dutch model’ of racial integration had been held up as an example to other nations. Trevor Phillips, the chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, said the violence in Holland had exposed flaws in the Dutch model and that the British way of assimilating immigrants was ‘the right one’.

‘The Dutch way is essentially one of segregation,’ Phillips said. ‘Britishness is an inclusive culture. Here you can be all sorts of strange and eccentric things as long as the core values - such as equality for women, treating children fairly and respecting your neighbours’ rights are there.'The Observer archive | The Guardian

Why do you have a problem specifically with HT? Why are other Islamic groups allowed to post their articles here?

Why did you delete the article I posted from a arabic news website.

Anyway no problem I won’t post anything from 1924.org again I don’t expect any sort of insaaf just double standards from people like you.

Back to topic

The points in the article that was deleted :rolleyes: are:

There is no specific definition of being british. Is someone who loves shakespeare, fish and chips, the pub, football, british then what about the many white non-Muslims who don’t like any of these.

In response to lodhi's article I would say that neither Isolation nor Integration is the answer. As Muslims we must show and convince others how Islam will solve many of the problems that face western society today.

When it comes to politics it is haram for us to take part in the political system whether British or Pakistani. However Islam is a Spiritual Political Ideology so I think its best for Muslims to form their own thinktank.

All you need to do is to like Queen to be considered British. But I agree with you. HT should be able to post it’s view no matter how rotten they may be. Are there any female HT spokesmen? What high positions do women enjoy in HT org?

:jhanda:

Lodhi is a joke whose words hold no value or any weight with sincere muslims.

At a time when muslims are killed in thier thousands in iraq and elsewhere such as chechnya and palestine you have idiots like ludoo and other chamchaa cocunuts telling muslims to lose thier islamic identity instead of focusing on the criminals like the so called British terrorist Government who are killing muslims as we speak is this the british way she talking about killing other muslims!

How many muslims in UK are going to listen to ludooos words i suspect 0.000000001% and the only way to test that is to ask the sincere muslims themselves!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
In response to lodhi's article I would say that neither Isolation nor Integration is the answer. As Muslims we must show and convince others how Islam will solve many of the problems that face western society today.

When it comes to politics it is haram for us to take part in the political system whether British or Pakistani. However Islam is a Spiritual Political Ideology so I think its best for Muslims to form their own thinktank.
[/QUOTE]

That's a contradiction. How can you 'show and convince' and then not get involved in the political system ? The fact that you are able to demonstrate and express your political views is a consequence of being part of the system - much as you hate the thought of this.

Besides "it is haram for us to take part in the political system whether British or Pakistani" is very much your / your parties peculiar twist on islamic interpretation. Saying something is 'haram' tends to scare muslims who don't think for themselves - scaremongoring is itself a political ploy used by parties who can't otherwise convince people.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Lodhi is a joke whose words hold no value or any weight with sincere muslims.

At a time when muslims are killed in thier thousands in iraq and elsewhere such as chechnya and palestine you have idiots like ludoo and other chamchaa cocunuts telling muslims to lose thier islamic identity instead of focusing on the criminals like the so called British terrorist Government who are killing muslims as we speak is this the british way she talking about killing other muslims!

How many muslims in UK are going to listen to ludooos words i suspect 0.000000001% and the only way to test that is to ask the sincere muslims themselves!
[/QUOTE]

I guess 'sincere muslims' in your books is someone who subscribes to your point of view on an inch either side.

It might come as a surprise to you that the vast majority of British Muslims detest UK's role in Iraq, but do not exclude themelves from the UK political system or isolate themselves from society. This is quite a shock and very frustrating for the isolationists sitting in thier cocoons who are desperately hoping for an all out clash of civilisations.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Risky: *

I guess 'sincere muslims' in your books is someone who subscribes to your point of view on an inch either side.

It might come as a surprise to you that the vast majority of British Muslims detest UK's role in Iraq, but do not exclude themelves from the UK political system or isolate themselves from society. This is quite a shock and very frustrating for the isolationists sitting in thier cocoons who are desperately hoping for an all out clash of civilisations.
[/QUOTE]

I speak to muslims of UK and most of them detest The british politics fullstop.

You have 3 main parties Labour , Conservative and Liberals.

Labour have shown they will bomb muslims even on Lailat al- Qadr in iraq or any other place.

Conservatives bombed libya and Iraq and couldnt give a monkeys about muslim sentiments.

Liberals are pro drugs and pro homosexuality i don't know what muslims are doing even associating with any of these groups.

So which group are you wanting the muslims to join tell me i am very intrested to know you claim muslims living in cocoons so lets see what you are offereing them bring it!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

I speak to muslims of UK and most of them detest The british politics fullstop.
[/QUOTE]

So how many do you speak to 2, 3, 20, 50, 100..200..1000 .?...what percentage is that of the UK muslim population ? Based on your so called 'discussions' - you generalise - you obviously need maths lessons ! But yes, there is a lunatic fringe of UK Muslims (the ones you talk to) - that one eyed freak show is an example, the Luton hip-hop fundo's are another - the holier then thow bearded ones urging muslims not to vote and to isolate themselves.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

You have 3 main parties Labour , Conservative and Liberals.

Labour have shown they will bomb muslims even on Lailat al- Qadr in iraq or any other place.

Conservatives bombed libya and Iraq and couldnt give a monkeys about muslim sentiments.

Liberals are pro drugs and pro homosexuality i don't know what muslims are doing even associating with any of these groups.

[/QUOTE]

There are active muslim constituents in all three parties, and they're doing a fine job. And yes there are non-muslims in each party that detest their parties policies such as Iraq and Palestine, as mush as the muslimd do. That doesn't mean they withdraw and form their own multitude of clubs - hardly effective

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
So which group are you wanting the muslims to join tell me i am very intrested to know you claim muslims living in cocoons so lets see what you are offereing them bring it!
[/QUOTE]

I did not say 'muslims sitting in their cocoons' - that is not the case as is obvious from the above. I did say 'isolationsts sitting in their cocoons'. They can be muslim or non-muslims - and you certainly seem to be part of this sorry but small tribe.

I've just heard that Dr Lodhi is doing a national tour talking to Pakistani communities - and the local Urdu and English media is applauding her pro-active common sense approach, together with the public that go to listen to her. Its about time - muslims need to kick aside the tom dick and harry mullahs that purport to represent them.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Risky: *
There are active muslim constituents in all three parties, and they're doing a fine job. And yes there are non-muslims in each party that detest their parties policies such as Iraq and Palestine, as mush as the muslimd do. That doesn't mean they withdraw and form their own multitude of clubs - hardly effective

[/QUOTE]

Risky since you are wanting to take this to a childish insults level then i will leave that you and all can see how far you get with that attitude.

My question was what are you offering the muslims in UK and apart from the 1 paragraph all you posted was 4 paragraphs of insults i can quite clearly see it is nothing worth responding to.

So i will ask you one more time and see if you can meet this simple question that i ask.

What are the 3 parties offering the muslims not non muslims but muslims of britain is it more muslim slaughtering policies or is it a real solution, ball is in your court and lets see if you can come up with some real answers this time.

great

[QUOTE]
In response to lodhi's article I would say that neither Isolation nor Integration is the answer. As Muslims we must show and convince others how Islam will solve many of the problems that face western society today.
[/QUOTE]
good point

The opinions of people hold no value in the matters of halal and haram because it is Allah (swt) who has decided these matters for us in the Book and the Sunnah. Allah (swt) warned about deviation from His Book:

“Therefore fear not men but fear me and sell not my verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers” [TMQ Al-Ma’idah: 44].

The ruler is specifically warned not to follow people’s opinions in matters of revelation:

“Rule between them by that which Allah has revealed to you, and do not follow their vain desires” [TMQ Al-Ma’idah: 49].

Democracy is built upon following man’s vain desires, without any restriction from the Creator. Democracy gives man the right to decide that sodomy is a crime, or that it is a respectable activity that our children should be encouraged to respect and practice. Democracy, therefore, is not simply a Western name for the Islamic principle of Shura!

liveshoaib, looks like you have a direct phone line to Allah to be able to speak for Him. Your opinion of democracy is completely misguided. Democracy has nothing to do with vain desires as you call them. Individual freedom, the right to choose leaders and change the policies of your nation are not vain desires, they are fundamental human rights and desires that Allah has granted us to enjoy. Only Allah has the right to take them away, not any mullah or tyrant.

^Sadiqaan calling for democracy is a call of kufr because of the simple fact that democracy is man making his own rules and desires and this is natural in mankind because mankind is biased!

That is why allah(swt) has established completed the shariah for man to implement and where we get our government and rules from.

In islam we are allowed to select our leaders by a vote because voting is simply a tool this is allowed however implementing secularism or letting man decide the laws is not permitted in islam at all that is difference between man made laws and what made man.