Adopt the British way, urges Dr Lodhi

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Since Islam considers all men and women equal. Why not let everyone vote and elect representative to a legislative body. The job of legislative body is to discuss, study, research and then legislate regulations for the public.

The foundation, starting point and guiding principles of the legislative body could be Quran.

If ANYONE at anypoint feels that a law or regulation enacted by the legislative body is wrong or un-islamic then it can be challenged in a court where renowned islamic scholars would listen to arguments from both sides. The panel makes decisions by voting. If the majority of the scholars on the panel vote against the law then the law is cancelled, otherwise the law continues to be enacted.

I believe this is exaclty what Islamic DEMOCRACY would/should be. And I don’t see any conflicts with any Islamic teachings.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

Risky since you are wanting to take this to a childish insults level then i will leave that you and all can see how far you get with that attitude.

My question was what are you offering the muslims in UK and apart from the 1 paragraph all you posted was 4 paragraphs of insults i can quite clearly see it is nothing worth responding to.

So i will ask you one more time and see if you can meet this simple question that i ask.

What are the 3 parties offering the muslims not non muslims but muslims of britain is it more muslim slaughtering policies or is it a real solution, ball is in your court and lets see if you can come up with some real answers this time.
[/QUOTE]

You seem to have an unending knack of turning, what might otherwise be an intelligent discussion into one of slogans and sound-bites. You ignore other peoples discourse and insist on having you own cheap point scoring questions answered , to the dot ! So – childishness - that’s your domain – don’t pin this on others.

I admit – I don’t really have the motivation to answer your silly questioning since they add little value to the topic at hand – but as you insist here it is. You originally stated that ‘sincere’ muslims do not listen to Dr Lodhi’s words, and that the “..only way to test that is to ask sincere muslims themselves..” You then stated, matter-of-factly, that you spoke to British Muslims and that “..most of them detest the British politics full stop..”. You asked me “..which (political) group am I wanting the muslims to join..” Later you insisted “…what are the 3 parties offering the muslims not non-muslims of Britain…”

I have already responded to your assertion about whether or not muslims listen to or like what Lodhi has to say. I gave you my personal opinion and also let you know what response she was getting from local muslims, reported in the press. Obviously, in your books, they must all be ‘non-sincere’ muslims, since by your definition ‘sincere’ muslims cannot be sympathetic to Dr Lodhi’s views, God-forbid. I ask you how many muslims in the UK you talk to to arrive at your conclusion that “..most of them detest the British politics full stop..”. You conveniently ignore this. So I’ll ask you again – how many do you talk to sitting in your cocoon ? Your survey (which I expect is statistically sound) would be of immense value to us here.

I am not the spokesperson for British political parties, so I am not selling them to anybody. What I am for is inclusion, not exclusion. Since I’ve lived here for many years under two of the political parties, what I can say is that Muslims enjoy a lot of freedom to practice their religion – mosques, schools, halal food…whatever. In addition there are Islamic aspect of governance – state health, free education for all, racial and gender equality….etc etc. Of course there are aspects of policy I and others, muslims and non-muslims alike, don’t agree with – aspects of foreign policy for example, and there are some politicians I would prefer over others (many of us for example can’t wait to see the back of Blair). We can exercise our right of reply in the ballot box. And I have to add that these freedoms are open to all – we live in a multi-faith and multi-ethnic society which is predominantly non-muslim – I don’t expect any of the parties to pander disproportionately to one or other ethnicity. As I mentioned earlier, there is widespread muslim involvement in all three major parties (and with the fringes). Of course, anyone has the right to set up their own party and try to convince the electorate their ways. This is called inclusion.

So – I expect you will enlighten us on the results of your personal survey, and do let us know what it is that you have to offer us sitting where you are.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
^Sadiqaan calling for democracy is a call of kufr because of the simple fact that democracy is man making his own rules and desires and this is natural in mankind because mankind is biased!

That is why allah(swt) has established completed the shariah for man to implement and where we get our government and rules from.

In islam we are allowed to select our leaders by a vote because voting is simply a tool this is allowed however implementing secularism or letting man decide the laws is not permitted in islam at all that is difference between man made laws and what made man.
[/QUOTE]

You cannot force or legislate Islam on others. If you don't have the faith, no amount of law or government action is going to force you to become a good Muslim or whatever other religion you follow. If the electorate consists of good Muslims, then the laws and people they vote in will also follow Islam. Allah has given us a choice and this world is a test of our faith. It is our duty to choose the right path, not the governments for us. If we can't do it on our own, then we are weak and do not deserve Allah's mercy. Forcing someone to be a Muslim when their heart is not in it is not Allah's wish for mankind. And what shariah will you follow? Everyone has their own version, so how can that be Allah's law?

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Madhanee,

Yes there are women holding high positions but lets not divert the discussion.

Risky,

I'm not calling for isolation, I thought I made myself clear in my last post.

The difference between Muslims like me and Muslims like you is that Muslims like me are not content with living a secularised version of Islam. All of the Qur'an is true not the verses which the british govt are happy with.

"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." An Nisaa : 65

How did RasuAllah (saw) live in Makkah? He didn't join the system even when a position in Dar An Nadwa was offered to him. The position was the head of Dar An Nadwa.

He stayed outside of the system and accounted the rulers, the prevailing practices of the society. He established Islam by changing the public opinion and then taking the authority via a bloodless power coup which is what we should be doing instead of voting for someone who will rule over us with kufr and who we have to beg so that they allow us a few minority rights.

We have the haq not them and we don't need to beg anything from anyone we have to give them.

We are not trying to implement Islam in Britain but we still affect public opinion in Muslim countries from here.

Just because something might seem beneficial for us does not make that thing halal.

daas,

In Islam men and women are not equal. Men have certain rights and women have certain rights.

We already have a system which didnt fail of which we were robbed all we need to do is to reestablish that same system.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
We already have a system which didnt fail of which we were robbed all we need to do is to reestablish that same system.
[/QUOTE]

what systems was that ? oh, the one where 3 of the 4 successors to Mohammad were MURDERED for the next khalifah to take over ?

But isnt this the precise system we currently have IN most muslim countries today - murder/assasinate/kickout the current (unelected) ruler and replace with another (unelected) ruler.

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well done

[QUOTE]
How did RasuAllah (saw) live in Makkah? He didn't join the system even when a position in Dar An Nadwa was offered to him. The position was the head of Dar An Nadwa.

He stayed outside of the system and accounted the rulers, the prevailing practices of the society. He established Islam by changing the public opinion and then taking the authority via a bloodless power coup which is what we should be doing instead of voting for someone who will rule over us with kufr and who we have to beg so that they allow us a few minority rights.

We have the haq not them and we don't need to beg anything from anyone we have to give them.

[/QUOTE]

MashaAllah

Yeh you right, since the destruction of Khilafah in 1924 we Muslims are without a ruler and it is more that 80 years now we havent any and in a situation where most of us think that the west is doin best and helpin Muslims to live better life as we see in Iraq, we dont blame people coz we are influenced by westeren ideas and their puppet agents (rulers) who implement kufr, yet people dont realise that it is a war against Islamic Ideology which crushed the crusaders in the past and helped people Muslims and non muslims to live a better life, example is Jews lived with Muslims in Palestine, some may say this and that happened in between the Islamic rule, I agree coz the Ruler itself is a human who is implementin Allah SWT's laws can make mistakes but The System created by Allah SWT is perfect as He SWT said in the Koran " This is the Book (KORAN) of complete guidance and rule by it".

West dont have a problem with Muslims, if we follow their desires but they FEAR the Islamic Rule which will take away their wealth which they are collection by illegal policies from muslim world and it is really a threat to their intrests, and they have declared war on terror. whatever words they use to supress Islam, It is Islam who will Rule as Victory comes from Allah SWT but we have to be prepared accordin to Sharia, to fight an army we need an army, weapons and before that thinkin in mind what their plans are, and to pass on the message of their kufr policies to Islamic Ummah and when the Ummah wakes up and understands the message of Islam and form an Islamic State which will unite us all and take care of Muslims and Non muslims.... from the opression of some people who have no faith and challange Allah SWT.

Abu Nu'aim narrated o_n the authority of Aisha that the messenger said: "If two agonies covered you: The agony of loving the living and the agony of ignorance, then you will not enjoin right and you will not forbid Munkar. The callers to the book and the Sunnah are like the early o_nes of Muhajiroun and Ansar".

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
He established Islam by ....taking the authority via a bloodless power coup which is what we should be doing instead of voting for someone who will rule over us with kufr and who we have to beg so that they allow us a few minority rights.

We have the haq not them and we don't need to beg anything from anyone we have to give them.
[/QUOTE]

How come the Mullahs running UK aloo stores fail to understand the whole life of the Messenger pbuh?

  1. He (pbuh) was most truthful, honest, and tolerant person for 40 years (while Mullahs are the most uncouth, and deceitful lot)

  2. He (pbuh) spent a lot of time meditating in the cave of Hira (while Mullahtics spend time in halva khori and emission of hot gasses)

  3. He (pbuh) tried to spread the word of God, and then migrated to Madina (these Mullahtics want to run UK aloo stores while bitching and moaning about UK government)

  4. He (pbuh) established a peaceful and tolerant city state in Madina (while Mullahtics killed Shias and destroyed Bamiyan)

  5. He (pbuh) only went to wars when Kuffar attacked him (while Mullahtic idiotics terrorize innocent children)

  6. Failing to stop Kuffar, he (pbuh) signed Hudabia treaty that gave Kuffar advantage that Umar ruh got angry (these Mullhatics don't even know what a treaty means).

  7. He (pbuh) achieved peace after the treaty and used to further build a just and honest society (while Mullhatics iditiotics live in UK aloo stores and incite hatred, and launch terrorism)

  8. When Kuffar stopped him from visiting Kaaba, he (pbuh) simply went back to Madina (Mullahtic idiotics don't care about international norms)

  9. Looking at his honesty, and tolerance, and peace-loving nature Kuffar of Makkah allowed him to enter the city.

  10. That peaceful and tolerant person (pbuh) won the hearts and the whole Macca joined him.

Unfortunately this board is filled with half-read half-dead aloo store graduates of UK mad-russahs. These blind followers of even blinder Mullahs skip everything peaceful, tolerant, truthful and honest. Why because these hateful despicable terrorist do not believe in the real life of the Messenger pbuh.

Damn Mullahtic idiotics from the UK aloo stores.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadiqaan: *
You cannot force or legislate Islam on others. If you don't have the faith, no amount of law or government action is going to force you to become a good Muslim or whatever other religion you follow. If the electorate consists of good Muslims, then the laws and people they vote in will also follow Islam. Allah has given us a choice and this world is a test of our faith. It is our duty to choose the right path, not the governments for us. If we can't do it on our own, then we are weak and do not deserve Allah's mercy. Forcing someone to be a Muslim when their heart is not in it is not Allah's wish for mankind. And what shariah will you follow? Everyone has their own version, so how can that be Allah's law?
[/QUOTE]

Sadiqaan

Islam does not force anyone to become muslim unlike the kuffar of amerikka and britain who are trying to force the muslims of Iraq to accept there democrohypocrisy by bombing them, starving them and killing them.

You are right allah(swt) has given us a choice and that choice is halal and haram and the choice you make you will be judged on it because you had full choice on which path you chose.

Everyone has there own version of Sharian ? This is not a correct statement at all. Every muslim belives in allah(swt) his messengers and the shariah. The reason for such diversions is due to there being no islamic state currently we have 55 leaders 55 countries and majority of them hand picked puppets who implement extreme secualrism.

Risky

I think no furthur comments are required to be made as others have already answered adequatly your secular proposal.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Everyone has there own version of Sharian ? This is not a correct statement at all. Every muslim belives in allah(swt) his messengers and the shariah. The reason for such diversions is due to there being no islamic state currently we have 55 leaders 55 countries and majority of them hand picked puppets who implement extreme secualrism.
[/QUOTE]

would you consider Iran an Islamic state, with shariah as the law of (their) land ? If not then why and how Iran is not compatible with YOUR shariah ?

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There is no widely accepted version of shariah. That's one reason why the idea of a khilafah is a far fetched one.

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thank you mullah seminole now lets move on to other business, like what lodhi has for breakfast one rasher or two?

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You don't have to be a mullah to see there is no consensus as to what form shariah law should talke. We still don't know if we can eat shellfish or how much a woman should (or shouldn't) cover up, even in her own house.

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as long as her mussels are covered and she clams up at the sight of a red lobster we'll be okay don't sweat it shrimp.

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^good one. There is a sense of humour under the dark outer layers.

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you calling me a nigger you honky ass punk!?

....sorry that's adopting the American way of street life.

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that one wasn't nearly as clever

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Ya gets what ya pays for

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daas,

Why is it that when a Muslim does something bad then the whole Islamic system comes on trial and US Presidents commit the most heinous crimes then you say he was a bad president and you stop at that.

When in the history of Islam did the Islamic system ever fail?

If Muslims fail to implement Islam it doesn't mean that somehow the Islamic system failed.

Every so called Muslim country is implementing secularism which some people here are calling for. Yet when we call for shariah you say which shariah implying that there is no consensus.

So which secularism do you want secularism of egypt where only one man stands for election, or secularism of uzbekistan where elections are staged so much so that the opposing candidate admitted that the 'elected' president karimov was the better man and so he also voted for him!!

After revolution Iran adopted the french constitution word for word. Not many people know that. So much for khomeini.

antiobl,

Why do you always have to mention Mullahs? Do you think this gives credibility to your post?

Discuss with me about what I'm calling for not what someone else said.

Islam is a lot more than just good morals and the Islamic state is not a state of angels when you understand this maybe your delusions will go away.

There was a lot more to what RasulAllah(saw) did, maybe you need to dig deeper than the surface and you'll understand why he took out those actions. btw not all Jihad was defensive but then again if you had read the Seerah of RasulAllah(saw) you would never had made this mistake. Spend more time reading about Islam and less about what some Muslims do.

Seminole,

I agree with you that unity does not lie in spiritual matters which is why we are not trying to unite on a spiritual level. You will see some groups trying to convince everyone to pray in a particular way or for everyone to follow the same opinion in every matter but there can never be unity in these matters. Others go to the lengths of saying there should be no groups when clearly Allah(swt) permitted many groups.

Umar bin Abdul Aziz said that difference of opinion in the Ummah is a blessing.

Political unity is what we call for. There is no ikhtilaaf on 'La ilaha ilAllah Muhammaddur RasulAllah', everyone should be given basic rights of food , clothing and shelter regardless of religion, killing of innocents should be stopped, justice should prevail, feudalism should be abolished, groups like sipah e sahaba who call for killing of muslims should be stopped, someone should stand up for us and defend us , there are no differences in this.

Only the Ummah and the Khilafah state can achieve this. We've seen secularism fail time and time again the reports from Iraq can prove this. Humanity doesn't exist under secularism.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
When in the history of Islam did the Islamic system ever fail?

[/QUOTE]

which islamic systems, the one where 3 of the 4 successors of the prophet were assasinated for the next one to take over the leadership ?

[QUOTE]
After revolution Iran adopted the french constitution word for word. Not many people know that. So much for khomeini.
[/QUOTE]

really? maybe not many people know this because this is a figment of your wild imagination. Or maybe what it is that everyone else's "shariah" is french and only yours is made with 100% desi ghee.

[QUOTE]

Only the Ummah and the Khilafah state can achieve this. We've seen secularism fail time and time again the reports from Iraq can prove this. Humanity doesn't exist under secularism.
[/QUOTE]

iran is not khilafah, afghnistan/taliban was not khilafah, saudia is not khilafah, pakistan is not khulafah, israel is not khilafah and even timbuktu is not khilafah. Pray tell where the hell is this khilafah hiding ?

Maybe what y'all ought to do is stop preaching and talking on these internet boards and instead go out and establish a small model khilafah, even if it is in a small town, neighbourhood or even in your own house. If it is such a great thing then maybe rest of us ignorant masses will see the greatness of your small model and join you. Until u prove it with your actions, no one is gonna listen to your BS.

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[quote]
I agree with you that unity does not lie in spiritual matters which is why we are not trying to unite on a spiritual level. ... Political unity is what we call for.
[/quote]

Then don't call it a religion. You can't have people under the umbrella of a religion soley for political purposes. What you are describing is nothing more than a peaceful version of communism. If you can't decide which spiritual matters to agree upon (which is what religion is all about), how in the world will you decide which political, social and governmental issues to agree on? There are other ways to prevent 'the killing of Muslims' and someone to protect and defend you then establishing a world wide nation based on religous affiliation.

Of course humanity can exist under secularism, history shows theocracies have been the major abusers of human rights.