actions of a true muslim??

I read that Osama bowed to Allah and thanked him, when he “heard” of the WTC incident..

now, is that the response of a true muslim?

remember the taif incident, when the prophet was asked if he wanted to destroy the ppl of that city and he said NO.

Osama (if he was responsible) destroyed a masjid in the WTC along with a lot of muslims as well. the laws of war in Islam clearly state the rules that need to be followed in war, and what happened in NY goes against everything Islam holds dear.

I just fely like ranting.

Agree. Not solely Muslim civilians, but all civilians, deserve to be protected. Whoever committed these terrorist attacks can't hide behind any religious principles to "justify" it. Claiming the life of one innocent person is akin to killing all of humanity, according to Islam.

Nomaan,
you heard it. You have proofs? How you know this is right or wrong...Rumours are every where.
God knows best. So leave it to God.


*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

Ok, tell me this. What is Osama actually doing?

Leave all the rumors about him behind. What is his story? Does he sell candy? Is he a shop keeper? What does he do? I don't want to know his mission. I just want to know how me spends his time and money

Nomaan,

Am I God to judge this? I don't have proofs so I won't blame anyone. America didn't even have proofs for the previous WTC bombings neither proofs that he had chemical weapon industry in Sudan nor that he had pilots in his camp. Still they are hunting him.
Why should we play GOD?! We have Allah (swt) for it so leave it to him.
Don't you think?! When he and his companions killed Russian Soldiers none of these American politician said a single word. WHY?!


*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

i just asked what he does. There are so many hardcore suppoters of this man, that someone should know what he does? Or is it that ppl are following him blindly ??

actually they said a lot. you might want to check out rambo 3 (that movie conveys the USs feelings towards the afghanis during that period. That was different. USSR was In Afghanistan.

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
**Nomaan,

Am I God to judge this? I don't have proofs so I won't blame anyone. America didn't even have proofs for the previous WTC bombings neither proofs that he had chemical weapon industry in Sudan nor that he had pilots in his camp. Still they are hunting him.
Why should we play GOD?! We have Allah (swt) for it so leave it to him.
Don't you think?! When he and his companions killed Russian Soldiers none of these American politician said a single word. WHY?!

**
[/quote]

Besides, we're not supposed to be passive. If someone is doing something wrong, you don't just sit there and say, Allah will take care of it, leave it to Allah. By not doing nothing, we also become participants in the evil.

Next time a person steals a car or kills someone, we should leave him at that? Yeah Right.

>>>Leave all the rumors about him behind.<<<

nomaan, how chivalrous of you to make that offer, but its seems ironic that the basis of your original post was just that-a rumour.

I agree with you, that if a muslim does wrong we should not condone his/her actions. As muslims we are commanded to stand with the oppressed whether they are muslims or non-muslims, it does not matter.

However, I think its also wrong to make such assumptions, passing judgements on the character of one, of whom you have no true knowledge.

thats why I asked what bin laden does? with so many supporters of his in the muslim world, someone should be able to tell me something.

[quote]
Originally posted by nomaan:
thats why I asked what bin laden does? with so many supporters of his in the muslim world, someone should be able to tell me something.
[/quote]

Unfortunately NOMAAN, few are they that will accept that OBL is anything less than an angel in disguise. According to most posters, he sit around all day, telling stories to the children, and in general is just one good godfearing man. It is not his fault that armed men are always around him, or that he's been quoted to spew out hatred to the USA, or that small rumours and threads of terrorism point to him, or that he is glad about what happened in the USA. ALL are libellous rumours and if his lawyers get their way, all those spreading these lies will be prosecuted.

PS: I don't say he is quilty, but where there is smoke.....

MY LAST QUESTION TO USAMA BIN LADEN

Source/Publisher: The Friday Times (Lahore, Pakistan) http://www.TheFridayTimes.com

The writer, Editor of Ausaf, Pakistan’s influential
Urdu-language daily newspaper, says that Usama’s poems will live
after his death and spread hatred against America. http://www.TheFridayTimes.com/news7a.htm

HAMID MIR

LAHORE, Pakistan, September 21-27, 2001 (The Friday Times): I
first met Usama bin Laden in Jalalabad in March 1997. I was
there to interview him. Instead, he started interviewing me. He
seemed to have done his homework; for instance, he knew that I
had interviewed Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Perez in
Switzerland, Nelson Mandela in New Zealand, Yasser Arafat in the
United States and Laila Khalid, the famous Palestinian woman
hijacker, in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Obviously, he had a file on me. That made me nervous. I couldn’t
hide my discomfiture and he enjoyed my unease. “I even know that
Asif Zardari (husband of former premier Benazir Bhutto) does not
like you and the (then) present Prime Minister of Pakistan,
Nawaz Sharif, is also against you. It proves that you are a good
journalist and will not distort my views. I gave an interview to
CNN but their editing created problems for me.” He hoped that I
would not create problems for him.

I realised that this was not going to be an ordinary interview
and that I was in big trouble. However, within an hour of the
interview, I felt relaxed. Usama was very friendly, which
encouraged me to even ask him odd questions. “You have 25
brothers, do you remember the names of all the brothers?” I
asked him. The question prompted him to talk about his father,
the late Muhammad bin Laden. Usama’s father owned a construction
company that took part in the renovation of the Madina and
Al-Aqsa Mosques. He wanted to liberate Al-Aqsa from Jewish
control. One day, he summoned his engineers and ordered them to
convert the 200 bulldozers of his company into tanks. When the
engineers told him that it was not possible, Usama’s father was
disappointed. He wanted to attack Israel with the 200 tanks. “My
father (then) decided to produce many sons, as many as he could
and to convert them into mujahids.”

And narrating this, Usama began to laugh. Responding to another
question, he said: “I have three wives and 16 children. All of
my sons are ready to sacrifice their lives in the name of Allah
Almighty.”

This interview was published in “Daily Pakistan”. It was the
first time that Pakistanis got to know Usama and the fact that
he demands the expulsion of American troops from Saudi Arabia
and the expulsion of Jews from Palestine in light of the Holy
Quran and the teachings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). “Until we
leave our faith, the Jews and Christians can never become
friends of the Muslims. So expel them from Arab lands. This is
not what I say; this is what the Holy Quran and Allah’s Prophet
[PBUH] says. Do you agree with me or not?” This is Osama’s
famous argument. The main strength of his arguments lies in
contradictory American policies. “Americans wants to implement
the UN resolutions against Iraq, Libya and Iran but not against
Israel because America is Islam’s enemy.”

In many of the Islamic countries, Usama is a hero by default.
While moderate Muslims do not share some of his extremist ideas,
he is the main beneficiary of the growing hatred in the Islamic
World against America.

I did my second interview with him for Daily “Ausaf” in May
1998. This time he threw some light on his differences with the
Saudi Government. He said that he opposed the Saudi support for
Iraq against Iran throughout the Gulf War. “The Saudi Interior
Minister, Prince Naif, was my opponent in the ruling
establishment. When Iraq attacked Kuwait, my government asked
for my help but I left my country because I was not ready to
fight against Iraq with the help of the Americans who ditched us
in Afghanistan.”

In the second meeting, he invited me to his press conference,
which was to be held in Khost some weeks later. I refused to
attend the press conference and said that he would invite too
many journalists and the information about his hideout would be
leaked. “That information would be vital to the Americans and
they could get a chance to bomb you,” I told him. This is what
happened in Khost in August 1998. The Americans attacked his
camps with cruise missiles.

My refusal to attend the press conference was a surprise for
Usama. He liked my careful attitude and asked me if I would
write his biography. I agreed after some deliberation with the
condition that I would not take dictation. He also agreed with a
condition that I would have the rights to only the Urdu and
English Editions and I would not publish his biography in any
other language without his prior approval. A written agreement
was signed between us. I gave him a long list of questions.
After some weeks I received his answers through a messenger.
Initially, Maulana Muhammad Abdullah, Khateeb of Red Mosque in
Islamabad, was my contact with Usama. The Maulana was killed
mysteriously in October 1998 in Islamabad.

I lost contact with Usama for a long time. At the time he was
also facing some restrictions from the Taleban. After a year,
some non-Pakistani colleagues of Usama began to visit me. Some
of them I had met earlier in Afghanistan. Even as I was writing
the last chapter of the book, Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, an ex-Senator
and leader of the Jamiat-e-Ulma-e-Islam revealed to me that
Usama had give millions of Dirhams to Nawaz Sharif in 1989, with
the promise that Sharif would use this money for promoting jehad
[war against terrorism] in Pakistan if he became the Prime
Minister.

I delayed the book and sent my last question to Usama. I wanted
to know if it was true that he had given money to Sharif? Where
had this money gone? Why had Sharif allowed the Americans to
launch a ground operation against him in October 1999? Had he
(Usama) met Sharif personally at the Green Hotel in Jeddah,
Saudi Arabia, with one Khalid Khawaja?

I never received the answers of my last question. Ms. Bhutto
says that this money was used against her in a no-confidence
move in 1989.

I received Usama’s last massage late at night on Tuesday,
September 11, 2001. It was a written statement in which he
denied that he was involved in the terrorist attacks in New
York, Virginia and Pennsylvania, USA. Millions of people in this
world are waiting for credible evidence against Usama bin Laden.
If there is no legal proof, America’s war against the Taleban
could easily become a clash of Islamic and Western
civilizations.

Very few people know that Usama bin Laden is also a poet. Most
of his poems are about Palestine. The United States can
eliminate him physically but his poems cannot be eliminated.
These poems will spread more hatred against America after Usama
is killed.

INFOTIMES INTERNET-WEB LINKS:

My Last Question To Usama bin Laden http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InfoTimes/message/1070

Peter Arnett’s Interview of Usama bin Laden http://www.flinet.com/~politics/jihad/jihad.htm

Robert Fisk Talks with Osama bin Laden http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=archive&s=fisk_wtc_19980921

Latest News About Usama bin Laden http://www.al-bab.com/arab/news/laden.htm

Usamah Bin Ladin Interview With Nida ul Islam http://www.islam.org.au/articles/15/LADIN.HTM

Usamah bin Ladin - The Holy Warrior - Hero of Afghan War http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/3606/binladen.html

Ussamah Bin Laden - MSA News http://msanews.mynet.net/Scholars/Laden

Daily Ausaf http://www.dailyausaf.com

U.S. State Department ‘Fact’ Sheet on Usama Bin Laden http://www.state.gov/www/regions/sa/bin_laden_charges.html
http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwh0001.html
U.S. Government ‘Fact’ Sheet on Usama Bin Ladin http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhtr01.html

FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives - Usama Bin Laden http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

Fatwah Urging Jehad Against U.S. Government http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
NOTE: A pro-America scholar of Islam has pointed out that there
is absolutely NO legal evidence to prove that Usama bin Laden
issued and signed the fatwa or Islamic edict against the U.S.
Government and Americans which was published on February 23,
1998 in the newspaper, Al-Quds Al-Arabi. He says that real
Islamic fatwas are issued in the Arabic, Persian/Farsi, Dari,
Urdu and several other languages in the world, but he has never
seen any fatwa originally written in the English-language.
Therefore, he has urged the U.S. Government to release the
so-called original Arabic-language fatwa document containing the
actual signature of Usama bin Laden to the American press and
American public so that the Islamic scholars could determine its
authenticity. He pointed out that there are many evil criminals
who are in the illegal business of issuing false, fabricated and
malicious fatwas to malign a Muslim, an Islamic organization,
all Muslims or all Arabs. He also pointed out that everyone in
the whole world is innocent until proven guilty in an
independent court of law after a fair and just trial which must
be held under just and fair laws.

[Publisher: Information Times http://www.InformationTimes.com
America’s international daily Internet newspaper
Chief Editor: Syed Adeeb - Washington, DC, U.S.A.
Copyright © 2001 Information Times. All Rights Reserved.]

thanks for this info. it still doesn't tell us why he has an army at his command and what they do. maybe they're boy scouts/>??

nomaan,

Osama came to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. I guess you could say that he saw affected him deeply. He is a fighter, and he is a leader-though more spiritual i would think. He might've fought alongside the Taliban, after their emergence in '94, to the present, training fighters, providing resources.

I don't think anyone's denying the fact that he is a 'fighter', or that he's aided the Afghans in various ways.

I don't think he's guilty of the WTC/Pentagon attack.

Old Man, are you sure that smoke you see wasn't wafted over that way from some other source?

i know his past history. i was interested in what hes been upto since the talibans took over afghanistan.

that is whats really relevent now

[quote]
Originally posted by nomaan:
**i know his past history. i was interested in what hes been upto since the talibans took over afghanistan.

that is whats really relevent now**
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Dear Nomaan, If you have been banished from your own country because you voiced your concerns and have been promoted as the devil across the globe ( most wanted by FBI) and you were of ill health and your only country of residence was Afghanistan , what would a Muslim be doing or must be doing should give some answers.

I cannot speak for that man, So I am just guessing what are his options.

As for having an army, here in the Philippines every wealthy tom dick and harry ( Christians and Muslims) have one .

It has more to do with survival in countries where one can get killed because he may be wealthy .

Smoke? What smoke? What source? Jeeze, I can’t see clearly because of all the smoke from these forums…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

There is no proof that Usama bin Ladin was behind this..

even the names of so called terrorists are under scrutiny... in effect there is no way America can provide proof to Afghanistan and rest of the world..

On question of Nomaan.. OBL does not maintain an army around him.. most of these are the mujahids who fought in Afghanistan and follow him.. (it is by their choice)

kinda like a large bit of Indian Population followed Gandhi.. he was their leader.. but he did not ask them to be there.

with same anology.. a lot of these indians did many things which Gandhi did not order or support.. Gandhi was responsible for their actions..

therefore if any of the supporters of OBL did (a big IF) carry out this.. it does not make him responsible for it.. and we already have a statement from him that he did not give the order.....

[quote]
Originally posted by nomaan:
**
Besides, we're not supposed to be passive. If someone is doing something wrong, you don't just sit there and say, Allah will take care of it, leave it to Allah. By not doing nothing, we also become participants in the evil.

Next time a person steals a car or kills someone, we should leave him at that? Yeah Right.**
[/quote]

Then go and kill O.B.L. If this is what you want to achieve. I don't see any sense in your posting. You are comparing a person who steals cars with O.B.L?? Ok lets use this blunt example:
Before someone gets arrested you give proofs, without proofs you have nothing in your hand. You don't take your gun out and point it on any civilian on the street and blame him for stealing this particular car(in AMERICA maybe!). DO you?! (in AMERICA maybe!)


*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited September 23, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
Before someone gets arrested you give proofs, without proofs you have nothing in your hand. You don't take your gun out and point it on any civilian on the street and blame him for stealing this particular car.
[/quote]

Correct, Ali_R, but sometimes a person is arrested and held for questioning on little evidence. One can't always give all details and all your informants away, can you?

Anyway, when a country/person is in a state of war, less evidence is usually enough to act upon it. A perceived threat is assumed to be a real threat. Normal proper reasoning is not followed. If one has just lost a beloved and you "believe" (no evidence) that you know the culprit, you sometimes act in retaliation before taking the normal legal cause. Unfortunately the USA is doing the same - AND THERE IS NO-ONE THAT CAN STOP THEM, or is there?

...or is there?

There's nothing earthly that is incapable of being overcome.

ps.Stop smoking its bad for you.