Accepting Secularism is rejecting Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

The dark ages is a time period when the church ruled Europe. The church imposed heavy taxes on the people and justified the presence of a monarch.

The only opposition to the church were the philosophers who would argue that God does not exist and people should make laws for themselves. The church would argue that God exists and only god’s law should rule.

The philosophers and the church reached a compromise, the church would accept that people are sovereign as long as the philosophers accept that there is a god. The philosophers would accept that god exists as long as they are allowed to rule for themselves.

So it is without doubt that secular thought is based on a contradiction. The idea that God exists but still we disobey him by saying he has nothing to do with our lives. A contradiction only causes problems and cannot give solutions. The secular system is good only for a few percent of the population who get to influence laws to be passed in their favour through campaign contributions. The secular system exists in all so called Muslim countries and whenever the secularist leader either commits treachery or steals from the treasury we are told that the solution is to have more democracy as though it wasn’t responsible for the problems we face already. We call for Islam which is proven to be true through the intellect and they still call for secularism even though it fails time and time again.

Secularists are trying to change Islam in the same way. However they will fail miserably with the grace of Allah(swt) because in their shallow outlook they have failed to understand that Islam is not a mere spiritual religion which doesn’t deal with life in this world like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc but indeed Islam is an ideology with a unique political, social and economic system. Islam is the only alternative to capitalism.

A Muslim will never accept that he/she will have to reject about 3 quarters of the Qur’an so that he/she receives the title of a ‘moderate Muslim’. A Muslim will never accept that the solutions offered by Islam which do make life better to never be implemented. A Muslim will never accept that the definition of a good Muslim be dictated by a kafir.

For a Muslim to reject the political aspect of Islam is the same as rejecting salah or any fardh. We do not believe in a part of the book we believe in all of it.

Islam solves problems through using Islam.

Secularism tries to solve problems through rejecting itself.

2

Re: Accepting Secularism is rejecting Islam

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
The dark ages is a time period when the church ruled Europe. ....

Islam solves problems through using Islam.

Secularism tries to solve problems through rejecting itself.
[/QUOTE]

This is the same 100 years old Mullahtic mumbo jumbo spouted by the anarchist nuts of Indian subcontinent. They read up two lines of European history and somehow become the "experts" on modern financial and political systems.

Bud! Times have changed since the dark ages. Europe, America, and Far East Asia are now changing every 10 years (or sometimes faster). People are continuously learning from their mistakes and improving the systems. Samsung of Korea was nowhere in the world of cell phones, and now they are among the leaders.

Off course modern economy means $hit to these mangled offshoots of the UK store residents. They are happy get drunk on the Arrabob-cola day and night. Islamic teachings make people honest, trustworthy, and tolerant. However these pathetic Mullahtics want to spread anarchy and militancy in the name of Islam (means peace).

Mods: Watch out for these Mullahtic idiotics shouting “secularist”, “kafirs”, “nature-ee”. These were the same terms used by the great leaders like Sir Syed, Jinnah, and Iqbal.

3

the word has been established against these sculars on gupshup,

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allâh has sent down." They say: "Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following." (Would they do that!) Even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided? (Al-Baqarah 2:170)

so follow your secular forefathers and allah will be the final judge of our affairs.

4

antiobl,

When are you actually going to start defending secularism? Stop sidetracking and turning to insults for refuge. Is it because to defend secularism its not possible use intellectual argument. I wouldn't be surprised since its not supposed to agree with the intellect in the first place. I bet your secularist friends or friend (probably) is really happy at your feeble attempt to defend your irrational belief.

Didn't Iqbal also say that if politics and religion were'nt mixed then all we would have is oppression or words to that effect. Juda ho deen siyasat se tau reh jati hai changezi

But I don't take Iqbal as a source of my ideas but how does it look when a person considers someone a reference point and then goes against him and yet still keeps him as a reference point. Contradictions come naturally for you secularists don't they.

Islam isn't against new technology, if you studied Islamic history you will see how much Islamic scientists have contributed towards modern science.

You attack clergy yet you are too illinformed (to put it nicely) to realise that clergy is a product of secularism and not a part of Islam. You're attacking the problems that your own belief system creates and blaming it on something else. Its the same as if you criticise paedophiles. Paedophiles can defend themselves using secularism. We Muslims accept everything, whatever it is, if it originates from Islam you secularists have to accept everything that originates from your belief system but you don't because you belief system causes too many problems and yet you blindly call for it and follow it.

If you really accept secularism then you must accept that if your sister, daughter or mother(no offence intended) runs off with a sikh or hindu, man or woman it is normal because its her freedom.

Otherwise repent and accept Islam. Allah is Ar Rahman and Ar Raheem and it is said that the best in Jahilliyah becomes the best in Islam.

5

good post, secularism sux.

6

what is wrong with following priciples of secularism?

7

What is wrong with it is the negation of the principle: “La hukmu’ Illellah” (There is no law accept that from Allah). In a Muslim country/state, the law from Allah is supposed to be supreme. e.g. if Allah says that those who do no believe in La Ilaha Illellah Muhammad :saw: urRasool ullah are non-believers or kaafirs, then they have to be treated as non-believers. If Allah says that interest is haraam then it is haraam. If Allah asks Muslim men and women to lower their gazes and regard ‘sharm-o-haya’ then that has to be the case.

For a Muslim, there is no civility in something if its roots lie in a disbelief in Islam. Infact, Islam carries all civility and manners that any society needs.

secularism.org is nothing but an ecpression of discontent on the message that Islam carries. It shows the same disease of the heart which munaafiqeens suffered from.

8

do you want every religen to be non secular goverment where muslim
right or worship can be curtailed ?

9

Secularism is the only way. Islam is good for dealing with your family and coping with your life but it cant run a country. A country run by Islam can never function, atleast not without oppression and the denial of Human rights. Not only that but Islam is to open to interpretation to ever be practical in running a country.
So if you want to live in just and well organized society, live in the secular world.
If you wanna live in a injust, confused, and divided world, live in an Islamic world.
And god bless the fact that its thanks to a secular world that allows us to make such comments and speak freely.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
.....Didn't Iqbal also say that if politics and religion were'nt mixed then all we would have is oppression or words to that effect. Juda ho deen siyasat se tau reh jati hai changezi

......
[/QUOTE]

This is the worst Mullahtic interpretation of Iqbal's verse. Iqbal never meant to say **
Juda ho Beardo siyasat say tau.....
or
Juda ho halwa-manda siyasat say tau...
or
Juda ho Hujra-bazi (read AIDS) siyasat say tau..

reh jaati hai changezi**

Iqbal used the word "Deen", meaning righteousness, honesty etc to be brought in the politics. No one can argue against that.

Your interpretation is typical Arrabob one where Mullah and Deen are one and the same thing. That makes modern day Islamic politics the same as "changezi".

11

hate to burst your bubble but you arent exactly authority on iqbal.

12

Re: Accepting Secularism is rejecting Islam

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
The dark ages is a time period when the church ruled Europe. The church imposed heavy taxes on the people and justified the presence of a monarch.

The only opposition to the church were the philosophers who would argue that God does not exist and people should make laws for themselves. The church would argue that God exists and only god's law should rule.

The philosophers and the church reached a compromise, the church would accept that people are sovereign as long as the philosophers accept that there is a god. The philosophers would accept that god exists as long as they are allowed to rule for themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Raihan,

Not a scholar here... Doesn't the fact that church no longer reigns supreme illustrate that non-secular government has proven to be a failure?

The secular system of government does have root in the old Roman Greek pagan systems...which I suppose were not completely secular as they held religious belief in the Gods they worshiped...and that system later persecuted those practising the belief in a single God....

Secular systems ultimately evolving over time, often including compromise in order to encompass the whole of society and the uniqueness and varying beliefs of all it's citizens.

Not to say any government is perfect....

A government, a society can only be as perfect as it's leaders and participants.

[QUOTE]
The secular system exists in all so called Muslim countries and whenever the secularist leader either commits treachery or steals from the treasury we are told that the solution is to have more democracy as though it wasn't responsible for the problems we face already. We call for Islam which is proven to be true through the intellect and they still call for secularism even though it fails time and time again.
[/QUOTE]

What evidence exists that theocratic government systems are immune to corruption?

Doesn't recognizing and seeking solutions to corruption positive evidence that secular govenment a viable and healthy system?

[QUOTE]
A Muslim will never accept that the solutions offered by Islam which do make life better to never be implemented.
[/QUOTE]

What is preventing solutions that make life better from being impletemented?

[QUOTE]
A Muslim will never accept that the definition of a good Muslim be dictated by a kafir.
[/QUOTE]

The opinion of own self is the opinion that truly has any value. This applies all people.

Could be that one is not a good muslim, christian, jew, etc...

Because someone is of the opinion that this or that person is not good isn't evidence that it's true.

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Science has done more for the development of Western civilization in one hundred years than Christianity did in eighteen hundred years.
-Jeff Burroughs

14

Science flourished under islam so where does that leave the above argument!

15

rvikz,

I checked the site and its clear that what they claim to achieve is something they themselves don't follow. They talk about achieving rationalism, secularism, democracy and human rights.

Rationalism and Secularism - Any Rational human being can easily come to the conclusion that a Creator exists and naturally that would lead to the question Why were we created and what is the purpose of our life.

Secularists say whether he exists or not we will live our lives the way we want. This is hardly a rational conclusion.

democracy - Musharraf hasn't implemented democracy yet they still support him. Dictators are kept in power by western democratic countries so they don't really care what is implemented as long as its not Islam because if it was then they will have to deal with a state which will not be subservient to them.

Human rights - America - Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo bay to list recent events.

Israel - Too much to write.

China - Xinjiang province

Russia - Chechnya

Saddam - friend of the west during gassing of kurds incident.

All Muslim populated secular states - Harassing, torturing, murdering political opponents.

Islam is not a mere spiritual religion It is an Ideology.

Islam gives solutions which agree with human nature. If you have a problem we will solve it we will not say God is giving you a test and you must be patient like what your priest etc would say

16

Pakpatriot1,

You said Islam is good for dealing with family and coping with life, ok Prove it because I don't think youy believe this.

Islam does not accept homosexuality yet secularism does how does this fit with your view on family. If your father said he was gay would you be ok with it? If not why not? Doesn't secularism allow it? Won't you obey the law of the land?

Without secularism - One Islamic state, all colours, languages, religions

With secularism - 50 something states and still breaking. Based on racism. Division around languages.

Which of these cause division?

Uzbekistan secular state - just go and try criticising Karimov's policies and you'll get your real taste of secularism.

For speaking the Haqq I don't need anyone's permission and I will continue regardless.

Antiobl,

Wise one already replied to you on your 'interpretation' of deen how about the other points raised in my post.

17

AvgAmericanGirl,

The Islamic state is not a theocratic state. I thought I made it clear that there is no clergy in Islam. The Islamic state is an ideological state.

The rule of the church was rejected by the masses, since Christianity only has laws which deal with worship, marriage, morals they couldn't rule according to christianity anyway. The clergy would make up rules and laws.

The Islamic state was never rejected by the masses only destroyed through the missionary invasion, orientalist attack which still continues and the removal of the khaleef by kemal ata turk.

I'm not saying that no one will make mistakes or that someone has made a mistake and so your whole system is wrong like some people say to us but when the ideology is the root of the problem that is when the secular world needs to really question itself. Drug dealers, prostitutes, paedophiles, killing of innocents, torture can all be justified using secularism.

The secular system, the corrupt leaders and their colonial masters prevent Islam from being implemented. If there was an election in Iraq they would want Islam to be implemented yet rumsfeld says this is something they cannot tolerate.

I didn't understand your last point. My point was the definition of a good Muslim is being dictated to us whereas other religions decide for themselves what makes a good hindu, jew,or christian.

18

Dear Raihan,

Please understand that I bear no ill will toward mustlims and my comments are not meant to discredit Islamic ideals.

[QUOTE]
The Islamic state is not a theocratic state. I thought I made it clear that there is no clergy in Islam. The Islamic state is an ideological state.
[/QUOTE]

Idealogical -

1:relating to or concerned with ideas

2 : of, relating to, or based on ideology

Ideology-

1)
: visionary theorizing

2)
: a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture

: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture

: the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

Wouldn't you agree that secularism is also an idealogy?

[QUOTE]
The Islamic state was never rejected by the masses only destroyed through the missionary invasion, orientalist attack which still continues and the removal of the khaleef by kemal ata turk.
[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you on the the point that missionary invasion bears any responsibilty toward destruction of the Islamic state because disatisfaction in Islamic rule by the muslim masses would have had to be present in order for missionary invasion to be sucessful.

[QUOTE]
Drug dealers, prostitutes, paedophiles, killing of innocents, torture can all be justified using secularism.
[/QUOTE]

This is a poor argument against secularism.

With the exception of rarely legalized prostitution and I think somewhere in the Netherlands drug use is permited....what secular societies condone such behaviors?

Because innocent people have been beheaded by muslims does that mean I can agrue that beheading of inocents is justified using Islam?

[QUOTE]
The secular system, the corrupt leaders and their colonial masters prevent Islam from being implemented. If there was an election in Iraq they would want Islam to be implemented yet rumsfeld says this is something they cannot tolerate.
[/QUOTE]

I have no high regard for Rumsfeld. If Islam were implemented...(and I am a little confused about this)..because if one is a muslim and follower of Islam..aren't they living in an Islamic state allready? What exactly needs to be implemented that is not all ready being implemented? What do you think is intolerable to the west?

[QUOTE]
I didn't understand your last point. My point was the definition of a good Muslim is being dictated to us whereas other religions decide for themselves what makes a good hindu, jew,or christian.
[/QUOTE]

What I meant was.....

Why give even the slightest attention to the definition of a good Muslim by those people who do no practise Islam? Who the hell cares what they think?

19

dont muslims wants to be treated in secular way in non-muslim
countries or majority religen should made official and make muslims
non-inclusive?

20

ISLAM, WHAT IS IT? See global afghan forum.

http://www.itshappening.com/showthread.php?t=69220&page=1