Secularism (by which i mean, separation of church and state) is humanity's only hope. No problem with being religious but when it is dictated from above, injustices result.
I'm still an atheist, thank God. -- Luis Bunuel
But for countries such as Canada or the States, isnt it better to avoid an entanglement between government and religion.There are so many different religions, wouldnt secularism be a solution for such nations?I mean we still have moral based decisions that stem from various religions - in a way we do have basic universal laws- do we not?
Was the first muslim state (Medina) a secular state? Is this the example the prophet (pbuh) left for us? To follow man made laws and totally disobey Allah's laws?
In a Muslim state, There would be no debts.
In a secular state, everyone is dying of it.
Secular state IS DEATH .
Muslim State is an ever-blooming flower.
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
Science flourished under islam so where does that leave the above argument!
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correction.. science flourished inspite of Islam.. it was indeed a miracle of the times.. or maybe the early followers weren't too confused about minor details.. but when they did start arguing amongst themselves whether eating a horse would be haraam or makrooh.. the Mongols swept through their cities, destroyed their libraries and made mountains out of their skulls..
and today we can clearly see how well science is "flourishing" in the may "Islamic" countries.. do we want more of the same?
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
correction.. science flourished inspite of Islam.. it was indeed a miracle of the times.. or maybe the early followers weren't too confused about minor details.. but when they did start arguing amongst themselves whether eating a horse would be haraam or makrooh.. the Mongols swept through their cities, destroyed their libraries and made mountains out of their skulls..
and today we can clearly see how well science is "flourishing" in the may "Islamic" countries.. do we want more of the same?
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if that was so tell me why muslims so quickly over powered romans? at the time science wasnot at its peak, i am not saying there is anything wrong with science, i am saying science will not save your ass if you lack in faith,all links back to Allah. your post and correct me if i am wrong gives the impression that if we start studying science we will regain our position which we wont until and unless we start living like muslims.
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*Originally posted by Wise One: *your post and correct me if i am wrong gives the impression that if we start studying science we will regain our position which we wont until and unless we start living like muslims.
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well maybe living like true muslims isn't "against" science.. whatever the case, how Muslims are living today is probably too far away from how Allah meant for them to follow his religion.. which explains a lot about the huge gap in scientific knowledge between the "Muslim" world and the West..
Raihan
I know wthis sounds a bit harsh but you just sound so completely brainwashed in your arguements - I can't think of another word to describe you - gross generalisations with little substance. The main gist seems to be '..here's the truth boys and girls and anything opposing this is anti Islamic, so there !.." There are too many examples and others have commented, but here are a few:
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Rationalism and Secularism - Any Rational human being can easily come to the conclusion that a Creator exists and naturally that would lead to the question Why were we created and what is the purpose of our life.
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LOTS of * rational* people haven't. That's a FACT, not FICTION. Come to terms with it.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Secularists say whether he exists or not we will live our lives the way we want. This is hardly a rational conclusion..
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NO. Secularists say it is up to you what you want to believe. We won't impose christianity on you, or Islam on you since * there is no compulsion in religion* (remember this little gem Raihan ?).
By the way, I guess you must be all for UK becoming a Christian theocracy by your own arguements - yes ??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
democracy - Musharraf hasn't implemented democracy yet they still support him. Dictators are kept in power by western democratic countries so they don't really care what is implemented as long as its not Islam because if it was then they will have to deal with a state which will not be subservient to them...
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Is China subservient to the West ? Is India ? Is Malaysia ?
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
All Muslim populated secular states - Harassing, torturing, murdering political opponents...
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And Muslim theocracies ....Iran, Taliban, Saudi Arabia..Harassing, torturing, murdering political opponents......chopping off heads
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *Islam is not a mere spiritual religion It is an Ideology....
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This is the new politically concocted dogma of the 21st century. A variant of the Bush dogma "..You're with us or against us.." translated into "..you either believe this or you are not a proper Muslim.."
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Islam does not accept homosexuality yet secularism does how does this fit with your view on family. If your father said he was gay would you be ok with it? If not why not? Doesn't secularism allow it? Won't you obey the law of the land?
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Raihan - If your father, mother, brother or sister told you they were gay, how would you deal with it ? What difference would it make to your actions (i) if you were living in an Islamic state or (ii) a secular state ?
Please do not state the obvious cop out answer "an Islamic state does not have homosexuals". Please do answer - I'm eager to learn.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: * Without secularism - One Islamic state, all colours, languages, religions
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You're fogetting the little fact that the majority of the planet is non-muslim. Are you suggesting that the UK would become an Islamic state if secularism was removed ??
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *With secularism - 50 something states and still breaking. Based on racism. Division around languages.
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Fact of life. Same happened to Islamic empires - lots of parallel running fiefdoms. Nothing unIslamic about it. Accept it, manage it, live with it, in short grow up, stop moaning.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *For speaking the Haqq I don't need anyone's permission and I will continue regardless..
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Yes I know. Its the "..its my religious duty to tell others about the right path.." Fine. Nothing wrong with that. Same as the 'come back to Jesus' brigade that knock on my door time to time, or the Harri Krishna's singing in the street, or the one man band decrying sin in the shopping mall.....ah well - that's secularism for you.
AvgAmericanGirl,
Don't worry about what you want to write be open. I don't expect you to agree with me unless I have convinced you and I can only do that if I know what you really mean.
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I have to disagree with you on the the point that missionary invasion bears any responsibilty toward destruction of the Islamic state because disatisfaction in Islamic rule by the muslim masses would have had to be present in order for missionary invasion to be sucessful.
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There were also crusades. I was just saying that various styles were used. At first (1625) they were fiercely rejected by both the Muslims and the Christians however with Ibrahim Pasha's encouragement (1834) they intensified their campaign. The missionaries were successful in their campaign as they didn't really call for christianity nor did they try to make people in general turn away from the spiritual aspects of Islam. They called for secularism and arab nationalism to create a rift between them and the ruling turks, whilst at the same time they incited the turks against the arabs.
So they were successful in that they managed to manufacture a national identity as opposed to the Muslim identity and remove the political aspects of Islam to books. However these statelets still had to have an islamic flavour in order for the Muslim public to accept them.
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With the exception of rarely legalized prostitution and I think somewhere in the Netherlands drug use is permited....what secular societies condone such behaviors?
Because innocent people have been beheaded by muslims does that mean I can agrue that beheading of inocents is justified using Islam?
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There is a difference between a society condoning an action and the action having a basis in the ideology held by the people. Paedophilia, drug use, prostitution is justified through the freedoms and so the system is obliged to protect them which they do regardless of what society thinks. Killing of hostages or torturing them has no basis whatsoever in Islam.
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I have no high regard for Rumsfeld. If Islam were implemented...(and I am a little confused about this)..because if one is a muslim and follower of Islam..aren't they living in an Islamic state allready? What exactly needs to be implemented that is not all ready being implemented? What do you think is intolerable to the west?
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I'm not a sufi and I don't accept asceticism or mysticism. A state is a state. It is a government that applies Islamic solutions. For one thing the Islamic state will never tolerate foreign bases on its soil. It wouldn't behave as though it is subservient to another state in the west or the east. Multinational companies wouldn't be allowed to operate on its soil. Oil wouldn't be so cheap. It would invest in researching new technologies instead of building pointless palaces and wasting resources.
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What I meant was.....
Why give even the slightest attention to the definition of a good Muslim by those people who do no practise Islam? Who the hell cares what they think?
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The problem is these people are in government and they expect us to accept their model of Islam and therby they will award us the title 'moderate muslim' meaning someone who doesn't follow Islam properly. Otherwise they will label us extremist, fundamentalist or terrorist just because of following Islam.
You can see their contradictions if someone accepts secularism and follows the laws of the land completely he/she is seen as a law abiding citizen but not a fundamentalist even though he/she would be one. However if you follow Islam completely you are seen as an extremist etc
They have a problem with Jihad to spread Islam but have no problem with killing innocent civilians, raping women, torturing prisoners (which is never allowed in Jihad) all in the name of spreading democracy in Iraq.
Risky,
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I know wthis sounds a bit harsh but you just sound so completely brainwashed in your arguements - I can't think of another word to describe you - gross generalisations with little substance. The main gist seems to be '..here's the truth boys and girls and anything opposing this is anti Islamic, so there !.."
[/QUOTE]
Do I hold the opinions which are disseminated through every newspaper, radio, tv station or do you? Then which one of us is brainwashed? Brainwashing is when you hold an idea but you don't know why you hold it.
If I wrote long posts you wouldn't read so I keep them short and to the point.
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LOTS of rational people haven't. That's a FACT, not FICTION. Come to terms with it.
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LOTS of people believe that elvis is still alive. It doesn't make that true. How is 'even if god exists god doesn't have any say in our politics' a rational conclusion.
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NO. Secularists say it is up to you what you want to believe. We won't impose christianity on you, or Islam on you since there is no compulsion in religion (remember this little gem Raihan ?).
By the way, I guess you must be all for UK becoming a Christian theocracy by your own arguements - yes ??
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How does establishing Islam over people who want to be ruled by Islam and not secularism have anything to do with compulsion?
Even if Christians or Jews were living under the Islamic state they wouldn't be forced or expected to follow Islam. Would they have a problem with traffic laws? or voting for a jewish or christian representative on the Majlis Al Ummah?
If you read the title of the topic you will see that this discussion is all about secularism and Islam not christianity or whatever.
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Is China subservient to the West ? Is India ? Is Malaysia ?
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My point was about the Islamic lands although western countries do support dictators in Africa. Every leader in the Muslim countries is a slave to the west and harasses political opponents.
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And Muslim theocracies ....Iran, Taliban, Saudi Arabia..Harassing, torturing, murdering political opponents......chopping off heads
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I've never supported any of them. Since there is no clergy in Islam these statelets have no justification for their claims to be ruling by Islam. At least you didn't deny the facts about the secular states.
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This is the new politically concocted dogma of the 21st century. A variant of the Bush dogma "..You're with us or against us.." translated into "..you either believe this or you are not a proper Muslim.."
[/QUOTE]
20th Century, way before bush and 9/11. An ideology is a rational doctrine from which a system emanates. How is Islam not an ideology?
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Raihan - If your father, mother, brother or sister told you they were gay, how would you deal with it ? What difference would it make to your actions (i) if you were living in an Islamic state or (ii) a secular state ?
Please do not state the obvious cop out answer "an Islamic state does not have homosexuals". Please do answer - I'm eager to learn.
[/QUOTE]
If you read my original question i asked Pakpatriot1 if he would be 'ok' with it not 'deal' with it. How about you, would you be ok with it?
i'll answer anyway
under secular system - Be totally disgusted with them, convince them otherwise show them it means leaving Islam and finally disown them.
under Islam - No one would openly admit to it like no one would admit to it some decades ago in the secular states.
Secondly I don't know if they have to be caught in the act to be punished or whether they admit to it. They would be punished though.
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You're fogetting the little fact that the majority of the planet is non-muslim. Are you suggesting that the UK would become an Islamic state if secularism was removed ??.
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Why do you reply to my posts out of context with my point?
I showed how secularism divides with 50 something states and Islam doesn't. Simple to understand.
Are you for real? How would removing secularism in UK make it Islamic?
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Fact of life. Same happened to Islamic empires - lots of parallel running fiefdoms. Nothing unIslamic about it. Accept it, manage it, live with it, in short grow up, stop moaning.
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In short become like you? pacified? As in don't care what's happening to Muslims all over the world and blame the problems which face us due to secularism onto pure deen of Islam which isn't being implemented anywhere?
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Yes I know. Its the "..its my religious duty to tell others about the right path.." Fine. Nothing wrong with that. Same as the 'come back to Jesus' brigade that knock on my door time to time, or the Harri Krishna's singing in the street, or the one man band decrying sin in the shopping mall.....ah well - that's secularism for you.
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I agree, its pathetic isn't it?
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
....I agree, its pathetic isn't it?
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Yeap! the topic is the most idiotic Mullahtic in nature. It sure is pathetic, but your arguments are even more lame.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Do I hold the opinions which are disseminated through every newspaper, radio, tv station or do you?
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Yes you do. Pick up any Urdu paper in Pakistan and it is filled with useless Mullah stuff. Spend some pounds and subscribe to any of these pieces of rag. They will be glad to ship the $hit to your UK aloo store.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
.....How does establishing Islam over people who want to be ruled by Islam and not secularism have anything to do with compulsion?......
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Man! do you live on this earth? Both Sunni and Shia Islams have been tried in many countries and the results are horrible. These are the places where Sharia and Mullahs run amuck, crucifying people in the name of Allah and Muhammad pbuh. Young men don't get an outlet and end up flying planes into buildings filled with people.
You say compulsion, baba every aspect of Islamic laws brings about compulsion. Look how many Pakistani-Ahmadis and Pakistani-Christians are incarcerated or on death row as we speak. Where is your conscious man?
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
..... Since there is no clergy in Islam
.....In short become like you? pacified?
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No clergy in Islam? My foot!
What are all these MAToos doing in MMA? Living in UK aloo stores makes you ignorant to the highest degree.
UK Mullahs are already pacified. Don't you know. Sell and eat aloos and make lots of kids who will all sell and eat aloos. Please leave us Pakistanis alone.
Dear Raihan,
Reading posts calling for an Islamic State generate myself to ponder a question.
The question being:
What creates the belief that an Islamic State = Muslim Utopia?
If you were today living in an Islamic State....
What about your life would be different?
I notice ANtiOBL has answered some of your responses in his usual sweet way - I'll try and be a bit more diplomatic....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Do I hold the opinions which are disseminated through every newspaper, radio, tv station or do you? Then which one of us is brainwashed? Brainwashing is when you hold an idea but you don't know why you hold it.
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It is easy to suggest that those that don't agree with you are under the influence of the popular, Western-leaning press. But don't be so sure - a lot of people do make the effort to read and study widely (and I do my humble bit) beyond the immediate media, and they come to conclusions which are different from yours. Secondly, the accusation you make can also be fired back at you, as AntiOBL has mentioned, if you limit your circle of influence (people, literature etc) to a particular set.
The issue of brainwashing goes back to your repeated assertion that 'Islam is an Idealogy'. Note definition of Ideology = "the body of ideas and beliefs of a person, group or nation" (Collins English Dictionary). The source of the ideas and beliefs can be religion/faith, but the idealogy you develop depends to a great degree on interpretation of the religious source, and/or the particular perceptions of the interpretive community that makes the interpretations on your behalf. Thus ideas are essentially a human construct, and they can be built up into ideologies which can then become sacrosanct.
The beliefs and ideas that you hold in YOUR particular ideology are revealed in your opening essay, to quote:
"...A Muslim will never accept that he/she will have to reject about 3 quarters of the Qur'an so that he/she receives the title of a 'moderate Muslim'. A Muslim will never accept that the solutions offered by Islam which do make life better to never be implemented. A Muslim will never accept that the definition of a good Muslim be dictated by a kafir. For a Muslim to reject the political aspect of Islam is the same as rejecting salah or any fardh. We do not believe in a part of the book we believe in all of it..."
In short, you imply in the above that all Muslims that do not follow YOUR ideology are not proper muslims. That 'moderate muslims' reject most of the Quran and are dictated to by others. And then the cornerstone of your ideolgy - that of linking politics with Islam - to the extent that rejection of this is akin to heresy.
The shere conceit, arrogance and ignorance of these positions are what points towards a brainwashed mind.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
How is 'even if god exists god doesn't have any say in our politics' a rational conclusion.
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Read some history and find out why. I'm not going to argue for secularism, but some reasons were : the corrupting influence of power, the exploitation of religion, the need to have an independent, moral authority providing checks and balances on power etc. Look at both western history and Islamic history to see how successful, efficient, moral, theocracies have been.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
How does establishing Islam over people who want to be ruled by Islam and not secularism have anything to do with compulsion?.
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Fine - so you're OK with giving them all a vote (ah hum - democracy) so that we know the majority of them want 'to be ruled by Islam'. And ofcourse, you'll allow the shias and sunnis to campaign for their respective 'Islamic states' ?
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
20th Century, way before bush and 9/11. An ideology is a rational doctrine from which a system emanates. How is Islam not an ideology?
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See discussion on 'ideology' above. Remember, your constructed belief systems can differ from others. We can all claim to be muslims.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
I showed how secularism divides with 50 something states and Islam doesn't. Simple to understand.
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Its a bit too simple - OK only for simple minds. Firstly, there have always been many independent Islamic fiefdoms even at the hight of Islamic 'empire'. Purely from a governence perspective, small is manageable, big needs to be broken down. You are living in cloud cukoo land if you think you're gonna unite all the Islamic nations into one big amorphous mass. Secondly, unity can be achieved in different forms - you don't have to have political unison to have unity on a set of common principles.
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
Are you for real? How would removing secularism in UK make it Islamic?
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Well you're the one who hates secularism. Does that not apply to the Western secularism ? - or is that OK because you can exploit it to express your religious freedoms and views ? Hypocracy or what ! The question stands - you hate secularism and would like to do away with it in the UK - so what would you want in its place ?
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*Originally posted by Raihan: *
In short become like you? pacified? As in don't care what's happening to Muslims all over the world and blame the problems which face us due to secularism onto pure deen of Islam which isn't being implemented anywhere?
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There you go again - the brainwashed rhetoric. People who don't agree with your ideology are void of any care or action to help the world and other muslims. And its all due to secularism. And due to them 'blaming Islam...which isn't being implemented'. The issues aren't so black and white brother - come out of your cocoon a while, leave aside your ideoligical brethren and have a good look around you.
God Bless
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*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Dear Raihan,
Reading posts calling for an Islamic State generate myself to ponder a question.
The question being:
What creates the belief that an Islamic State = Muslim Utopia?
If you were today living in an Islamic State....
What about your life would be different?
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This concept:
- is a diversion from tackling real issues;
- is an excuse for all the ills in the Islamic world;
- can be used as a focus for constructing an ideology upon which political movement is rallied.
In the meantime, tackling the real issues and making real improvements gets marginalised. What a shame.
What amazes me is how everyone is ignoring the negative aspects of Secularism.
The ever growing gap between the rich and poor.
The increasing number of crimes in the society.
The various wrong sub cultures and beliefs that have started to come into existance (homosexuality, satanism, drugs and open sex etc )
The whole concept of Freedom, misunderstood by everyone, is causing the major secular societies to break within. No more family values...
Look at Pakistan, we'r in the 21st Century and Pakistan is still in control of Feudal Landlords and slave workers.
The above mentioned problems account for the majority of the World's problems as of now. Islam solved all those problems more than 1400 years ago.
I dont understand why do people start talking about theocracy when an Islamic State is far from being a theocracy.
Islam is not about Mullahs, so dont throw the Mullah crap at me. Antiobl your interpretation of Iqbal's verse seriously made me feel sorry for you. Even you know what the word Deen means, STOP FOOLING YOURSELF.
And yeaa.... Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban are/were not Islamic States in any sense. So dont throw your arguments at me, using these states as examples.
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*Originally posted by antiobl: *
This is the worst Mullahtic interpretation of Iqbal's verse. Iqbal never meant to say **
Juda ho Beardo siyasat say tau.....
or
Juda ho halwa-manda siyasat say tau...
or
Juda ho Hujra-bazi (read AIDS) siyasat say tau..
reh jaati hai changezi**
Iqbal used the word "Deen", meaning righteousness, honesty etc to be brought in the politics. No one can argue against that.
Your interpretation is typical Arrabob one where Mullah and Deen are one and the same thing. That makes modern day Islamic politics the same as "changezi".
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Deen = Way of Life
In particular Islamic Way of Life as per the verse of Quran that In the eyes of Allah, the only Deen (way of Life) is Islam.
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*Originally posted by Risky: *
This concept:
- is a diversion from tackling real issues;
- is an excuse for all the ills in the Islamic world;
- can be used as a focus for constructing an ideology upon which political movement is rallied.
In the meantime, tackling the real issues and making real improvements gets marginalised. What a shame.
[/QUOTE]
Keep your ignorance to your self.
The concept states:
That Sovereignty belongs to The One and Only God. The God of Abraham and his Sons. And to live under the guidelines set by Him.
Whereas the ruling of the land will be a vicegerency, working under the principles of God.
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*Originally posted by Sharaabi: *
Keep your ignorance to your self.
The concept states:
That Sovereignty belongs to The One and Only God. The God of Abraham and his Sons. And to live under the guidelines set by Him.
Whereas the ruling of the land will be a vicegerency, working under the principles of God.
[/QUOTE]
They're OK as a set of principles - I have no problems with them. Putting a constitution together, with prescriptive rules and laws, and getting everyone to agree on them - is another matter. You can choose to stay ignorant.
When did i say, that we should enforce Islamic Law on an entire poppulation?
When did i say...lets do an Ayatullah Khomeni or the Taliban way?
The Iranian way is pure failure. The iranian theocracy has failed to reach the hearts of the people.
Islamic State can only be revived, once again, exactly the same way it was revived the first time under the tutelage of Mohammad (Pbuh).
It should start from the grass root levels, people should be taught the true message of Islam first. Khilafah has to form in each and every heart, for it to take over a state.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Raihan: *
AvgAmericanGirl,
[QUOTE]
There is a difference between a society condoning an action and the action having a basis in the ideology held by the people. Paedophilia, drug use, prostitution is justified through the freedoms and so the system is obliged to protect them which they do regardless of what society thinks. Killing of hostages or torturing them has no basis whatsoever in Islam.
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Raihan,
Because secular political systems promote freedom of religion, freedom of speech....doesn't mean secular systems are obliged to make legal or justify behaviors that are abhorant to society.
Where do you get that idea?
(Islamic State)
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It is a government that applies Islamic solutions.
For one thing the Islamic state will never tolerate foreign bases on its soil. It wouldn't behave as though it is subservient to another state in the west or the east. Multinational companies wouldn't be allowed to operate on its soil. Oil wouldn't be so cheap. It would invest in researching new technologies instead of building pointless palaces and wasting resources.
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I could be mistaken but if you refer to U.S. base in Saudia Arabia..I don't believe it was built by force. Are you sure west deserves entire blame? Perhaps fault should also be vented toward Saudi leadership?
I don't see subservience you refer to. What is wrong with multinational companies? Doesn't multinational infer benefit toward multiples..rather than benefit solely?
Oil..the black gold..big part of what makes the world go round...price of oil affects economics worldwide. Is it your point that oil rich countries build palaces instead of investing in it's people? If so..how is that the fault of secular society? Is it your point that oil rich countries should not trade with other countries? Trade is an age old building block of civilization.
(Defining Good or Bad)
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The problem is these people are in government and they expect us to accept their model of Islam and therby they will award us the title 'moderate muslim' meaning someone who doesn't follow Islam properly.
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Being called moderate doesn't mean one is mediocre in practise of Islam.