people who believe that certain verses in the Quran are nasikh that have abrogated some others. They base their belief on the following verse
2:107) Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?
the above mentioned web page has dilated on this issue quite a bit.
Some of my questions that I have in mind are:
Quran says that there is no doubt in this book. Also says that there is no contradiction in Allah’s word. If we accept the concept of abrogation, we are actually giving way to contradictions.
if a certain verse is abrogated, why would it be still part of the final compilation of the holy quran? see poit 2 above. This is quite weird that verse ruling is abrogated but it still is part of the Quran.
point 3 is even more weird. ruling in a certain verse is not abrogated but the verse is. ? this is simply beyond me.
following quote from the web page is important
I have read it somewhere that around 500 verese were said to be abrogated that was reduced to 5 by the time of hazrat shah wali ullah(ra). so it means that whole this thing was based on opinions or may be certain tradtions that were held above the holy quran.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Only Allah and his Prophet(SAW) know about nasikh and mansookh verses. The Quran does not tell us which ones it applies to and there are no ahadees about them.
Scholars use their imagination in vain . There is no real need to identify those verses. If it was Allah and Holy Prophet(SAW) would have told us.
Since Allah and Holy Prophet(SAW) did not tell us , so as we have belief and faith in many things in Quran and hadees as to them being truth and known to Allah and Allah's Rasool(SAW) so this concept should be taken as matter of faith not a matter of debate.
No one can provide any proof to their claim of identifying the abrogated verses. Can they ?
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
My life is complete without knowing this. Alhumdulillah.
I am not losing my life over finding the answer to this small question. There are other bigger questions to ponder over.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Peace kchughtai
There is no contradiction here … You need to understand what a contradiction is, apply it correctly … in order for it to be a contradiction. Something that appears odd may still not be a contradiction.
First and foremost …
Is there evidence that abrogation is valid … the verse you provided demonstrates that it is … In other words there is no contradiction in the idea of abrogation within Islamic scripture because Islamic scripture provides the basis for it such as with 2:107.
So the reasoning in your point 1) is false and flawed. There is absolutely no doubt … The type of abrogation that takes place is something you can call “raising the standard” … for example … If I say “don’t be drunk in the state of prayer” and then later say “don’t drink” … there is no contradiction because the first condition is encapsulated by the second … in other words with the bringing in of the second the first is still relevant, but it has become contextualised. The first case is silent on whether drinking is allowed or not, but when the second comes in, the first becomes automatically applicable. It is impossible to be drunk during prayer if drinking itself has been outlawed.
One thing that does however surface from this discussion is that the second statement makes the first redundant - or renders any ruling of that kind inappropriate because the condition of drunkeness will not be the issue but drinking itself. The first statement is hence logically correct and applicable but it has no real meaning in practical terms.
This forms the basis of the verse being present, but it’s ruling is not applicable because a greater ruling is in place due to another verse/revelation that has replaced it.
These types of verse where ruling are maintained but the verses are out of the scripture are purely those ones which have been forgotten. There is evidence within the Qur’an that forgetfulness has happened with respect to revelation … it is mentioned in the Qur’an and also when it did happen it is our belief that it happened through Divine wisdom. We also know that the Qur’an is not the limitation of the Word of Allah (SWT) … We know that if the trees were made pens and the oceans made ink then sooner would they run out than the Words of Allah (SWT) …
Why are you even raising such topics here? Provide us your opinions and give us the basis for them instead of taking material from a group that you do not represent or who do not represent your opinions …
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
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Is there evidence that abrogation is valid ... the verse you provided demonstrates that it is ... In other words there is no contradiction in the idea of contradiction within Islamic scripture because Islamic scripture provides the basis for it such as with 2:107.
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Salam Psyah,
The inference drawn is wrong. It pertains to old scriptures. if you look at the previous verse, it will be clear to you
*2:106) They who disbelieve from among the People of the Book, or from among those who associate gods with Allah, desire not that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord; but Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is of exceeding bounty
*
now
*2:107) Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?
*
and if you look at the following verses after 2:107,
2:108) Dost thou not know that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah alone? And there is no protector or helper for you beside Allah.
**
2:109) **Would you question the Messenger sent to you as Moses was questioned before this? And whoever takes disbelief in exchange for belief has undoubtedly gone astray from the right path
it is pretty clear that a reply from Allah to those who disbelieved from the people of the book who were jealous against the new revelation from Allah. So 'Ayah' refers to previous revelations. it is pointed out that prev. scriptures had two types of commandments
1) those that required abrogation
2) those containing eternal truths that needed revival so that people must be reminded of forgotten truths.
will read your rest of the post later. don't have time and feeling tired
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Only Allah and his Prophet(SAW) know about nasikh and mansookh verses ...
add, 'for sure' at the end, plus "but the ilm of Nasikh and Mansookh is not a hidden science". During the 8 year aalim course, ilm of Nasikh and Manssokh is regularly taught
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
add, 'for sure' at the end, plus "but the ilm of Nasikh and Mansookh is not a hidden science". During the 8 year aalim course, ilm of Nasikh and Manssokh is regularly taught
What is the point ?
How is it going to help anybody ? If we do not know something that is the end of it. No ?
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
What is the point ?
How is it going to help anybody ? If we do not know something that is the end of it. No ?
Mirch, to help formulate the shariah, it is important to know this ilm. Quran has 2 sets of ayat referring to the iddat period for a woman. Both define differnet time. If not for the ilm of Nasikh and Manssok, no one would know which ayat to follow for the ruling.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
IMO there are no contradictions in the Quran. As psyah bhai said..the step wise introduction of various 'ahkamat' by Allah is just like raising the bar of the previous ayat. Like don't drink in state of prayer to be replaced by the complete prohibition of drinking basically just a reinforcement. It's mot like Allah said drinking is allowed and then later said drinking is completely prohibited.
Nasikh and mansookh study definitely helps grasp the best legal order given by Allah SWT and helps in the application too. But by no means does it mean that there is room for any contradiction or doubt.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Peace kchughtai
Please learn grammar and logic these are essential tools for discussion about holy texts …
I don’t know what it is you are trying to prove, but your analysis of the Qur’an is again wrong. You want me to believe the verse in question refers to “old scripture” …
a) It states “They who disbelieve from the People of the Book” - In grammar we can see where the nomination is present … it is over the term “They who disbelieve” it is not over “from the People of the Book” … in other words Allah (SWT) is talking about “people” and their “belief” not older scriptures. Scriptures have not been called upon - any reference to them is in the “jarr” state - which is called “genitive” in grammar. The genitive terms have an associated affect i.e. they describe what is being held as the Subject or Predicate.
b) The verse also calls upon the pagans - therefore if the verse was about “previous scripture” as you say then why are the “pagans” being invoked alongside the “Ahl-al-Kitab”?
Verse 2:109 - is about those who sow discord by questioning in order to find error in what was said by the respective prophet … In this case we have a line of questioning that was asked - why this when you said that - and the response to this is verse 2:107 … in the case of Musa (AS) it was about the animal that they asked for details to be sacrificed - a simple cow would have been sufficient but they asked more and more detail until it became a burden on them to fulfil.
Your ideas about there being a subject of “scripture” past rulings and present rulings are absent from the context of these verses …
Besides if you were right further evidence would have been found in verse 2:109:
c) Moses (AS)'s treatment is being equated with Muhammad (SAW)'s treatment it is not being contrasted … Had there been a reference to past scripture and present scripture here then a clearer indication of this would have been seen by contrasting these two great prophets (AS) not equating them.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Quite clearly, laws ordained for the people of the previous Prophets (as) were restricted to their respective nations therefore time-bound such as prohibition to hunt on the day of Sabbath and so on. During the time of our Prophet (saww) too there were some commands that were not meant to be permanent such as facing Quds while praying was temporal and changed to facing the Kaaba as time went on. Another example of temporal command from the Quran is verse 58:12 which was in effect for a small duration of period within the life of the Prophet (saww) later being abrogated by verse 58:13 which is also the subsequent verse in the Quran to the initial command.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
All signs, revelations, messages, clues of God have a specific purpose. None of them invalidate the other one, they all are applicable in different circumstances. A person on a journey of spiritual attainment goes through many of those stages that we may not be aware of . To them Quran becomes 3D. The words of Quran come alive for them. It speaks to their soul, and they understand what it means, they can relate to it, it resonates with them, it guides them directly.
Al-Quran (3:7)
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is **all **from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
I believe Sunnipath is an authentic website, it has alot of good information. This article must have been left there by mistake.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
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3) These types of verse where ruling are maintained but the verses are out of the scripture are purely those ones which have been forgotten. There is evidence within the Qur'an that forgetfulness has happened with respect to revelation ... it is mentioned in the Qur'an and also when it did happen it is our belief that it happened through Divine wisdom. We also know that the Qur'an is not the limitation of the Word of Allah (SWT) ... We know that if the trees were made pens and the oceans made ink then sooner wuld they run out than the Words of Allah (SWT) ...
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Do you really believe in what is highlighted? Then what will we do with the following verse? 87:7) We shall teach thee the Qur’an, and thou shalt forget it not,
So there was no chance of forgetting when Allah Himself took the responsibility that the prophet (pbuh) will not forget it. If you think that sahabas forgot it after the prophet (pbuh) then I think this is an outrageous thing to believe in.
Re: Abrogated verese within Quran (nasikh mansookh), myth or reality?
Allah (swt) has taken the responsibility of that the the Prophet (pbuh) will not forget it and that of preserving the Quran through the agency of Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all).
Likewise it is Allah (swt) who has taken the responsibility of abrogation and of some verses been forgotten unto Himself.
'None of Our revelations do* We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten*, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106).
Yes it would have been outrageous if the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) forgot the Quran by their own deeds having been taught by the Prophet (saw)!!!
