Ablution and Science

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

jazakAllah
every act of Islam is beneficial for us, because it is from Allah who love us most.

22

Again, you keep saying that. You keep saying that I'm saying hadith are not part of Islam when all I'm doing is posting CLEAR verses. If you choose to disregard the QUran, that is your decision.

Timepass November 2014 (Iqbal ka maheena)
23

Peace submitmj

We are talking about wudu so the verses you have posted are designed to your end only which is to somehow equate details of wudu as per hadith as some sort of fraud nauzdubillah.

Unless you can bring a verse that explicitly prohibits masa of neck then it is you who is removing from Islam not us who are adding to the words of Allah (SWT).

The part that you always bring saying "fully detailed" does not imply "complete" as there is another verse which says that the Words of Allah (SWT) will not run out before many fold of the seas worth of ink runs out. It implies for sure that the Qur'an is itself completely the Word of God, but it is not exhaustive and to say so is to limit the capacity of God.

Furthermore it tells us about the prophet Muhammad (SAW) who does not say of his own accord and hence the hadith are from Allah (SWT) as well, as inspired understandings from the prophet Muhammad (SAW). Now stop derailing this thread.

24

Yes, but the hadiths ARE NOT FROM PROPHET MUHAMMAD! THE QURAN IS! Hadiths came well after he was dead. So, it is chronologically impossible to be from Muhammad. They are fabricated hearsay attributed to Muhammad, but they ARE NOT from Muhammad's mouth. It was the QUran that came out of his mouth.

Tell me, why would GOD reveal a scripture (Quran) to the world only to have it undermined by humans who 'claim' they heard Muhammad say this or that? It is completely illogical. The Quran says Ablution is four steps. Who is wrong? GOD or hearsay hadiths? Why are you so averse to simply obeying GOD's clear commands? It is so simply. Just do what the Quran says. No more, no less.

I'm not derailing anything. You derailed yourself when you took another source besides GOD as religious guidance.

25

Peace submitmj

The hadith are from Muhammad (SAW). It is a falsehood to make such claims as to the reverse. The Qur'an is revealed, but before the Qur'an came the man upon whom the Qur'an was revealed was sent. You are undermining the prophet (SAW) by saying that all he is a tape player for God (Audzubillah) he was the master of the true understanding of the Word of God and his words are our teachings on how best to understand the verses. You do away with that aspect and then you will have to rely on your own interpretations which are subject to the norms of your own abilities and experiences.

The Qur'an never says that ablution consists of only four steps, if it does then please show where this limiting expression exists. You need to understand what context, elaboration actually means and at the same time you also need to do a course in logic or semantics as you clearly confuse the idea of contextualisation with contradiction on a regular basis.

26

You can use all the fancy words you like to try and give the impression that my logic is flawed. The irony is that the Ablution is clearly 4 steps in the Quran. Although, I'm sure you will find some absurd reason to say that the following verse somehow does not say 4 steps. Perhaps a fabricated hadith?! Well, the Prophet would never disobey GOD as state in Quran. So, your hadith would naturally be a lie (which I've been stating for quite some time).
[Quran 5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: [INDENT]wash your faces,
wash your arms to the elbows,
wipe your heads, and
wash your feet to the ankles.
If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
[/INDENT]

27

:salam:

I wish I could control myself but I can’t help but understand the level of ignorance you are displaying. You’ve been adamantly describing wudu from the Quran and have clearly stated you do not accept the authenticity of hadith. But to what end are you arguing, wudu is done for Salah, Quran does not state how to pray, that is ONLY AND ONLY found in the hadith or lets say its been passed down like tribal knowledge among muslims generations, still not in the Quran in ritual details. So explain to me why Quran would is describing wudu is such precise detail (without any verse limiting it) with no mention of Salah steps in similar detail.

If you are a Quran only follower, why should your stand on wudu have any significance to your phillosophy at all, since you probably do not pray anyway.

28

Absolutely, I am describing Wudu from the Quran because it is from GOD. The Quran is what came from Prophet Muhammad’s mouth, not hadiths. Show me one hadith that is directly from Prophet Muhammad?! Actually, there is one. It is called THE QURAN.

The reason wudu is described in Quran is because it was a corrupted ritual prior to Muhammad. Hence, the QUran corrected it. This is similar with allowing sexual intercourse with wives in the evenings during Ramadan. However, the salat prayers were fine. More importantly, the religious duties came from Abraham, NOT Muhammad. Anyhow, you said you need Hadith to perform salat prayers. However, that is another lie because your hadiths does not explain how to do salat prayers fully (see my posting #19 which has the link to salat through sunnah). It was only after Prophet Muhammad died that muslims corrupted the salat prayers. I know perform the salat prayers correctly because 3:81 was fulfilled and GOD sent His clarifying messenger of the covenant.

29

While I have no intention to come in the middle and also see 'some' of your points valid but this bold part is not really correct.

Even Quran was not entirely written directly by the Prophet SAW. It was preserved by chain of shabas and their memories as well.

What I mean is that method of preservation for both were same..

The difference is that Hadiths were purely words of the prophet SAW and Quran of Allah through the prophet SAW.

People who put too much emphasis on fabricated or so called authentic hadiths that they tend to ignore Quranic rulings are also misguided.

Not going to give examples for respect of others.

And this rule of 19/math miracle is just a myth as well.

30

I want you to prove to me that the Quran is from Porphet Muhammad SAW. Have ever read even a single book on science and transmission of hadith? I think not. When you say Quran is from Prophet Muhammad SAW, we all know that he himself SAW did not write it, it was written down by his companions, same companions who also wrote collections of hadith (when they were not formally compiled into hadith collections). The same people transmitted Quran to us who transmitted hadith. So when you caste a doubt on their hadith you are inherently casting a doubt on the authenticity of the Quran as well, because hadith and Quran were transmitted via the same sources. And the myth that hadith were written centuries after Prophet Muhammad SAW demise, is incorrecet. Hadith existed in the personal collections of many companions at the time the Prophet SAW was alive. What happened centuries later was just an organized movement to collect, compile and publish those individual collections. Infact not even centuries later but the first organized collection existed in less than a century's time i.e. the Muwatta of Malik. Do yourself a favor and go read any decent book on Ilm ul Rijaal. The information about through who hadith were passed down and which collections existed can be found if you study rijaal deep enough. Its not available on submission.org or freeminds.org though. You'll have to spend some money to buy those books.

Can you substantiate from the Quran that wudu was a corrupted ritual? And can you please come out of your kinky dreamworld and stop comparing wudu with sexual intercourse.

Can you explain the correct way to do Salah in steps and then references to how the muslims after Prophet Muhammad SAW corrupted it?

Since religious duties came from Prophet Ibrahim based on your understanding, first tell what is the same of the Book revealed to Prophet Ibrahim AS (clue for you, there is something mentioned in the Quran about this). See if you can figure this out. Where is it now?

I am much interested to carry on with this discussion ...

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Re: Ablution and Science

I told you submitmj you are derailing this thread ....

32

Re: Ablution and Science

Guess submitmj has gone looking for answers.

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1) I know the Quran is from GOD because of the 'great miracle' (74:35) or the math miracle of Quran. It proves the Quran is complete and fully detailed and the unaltered Word of GOD. Thus, whatever it says is the absolute truth. The Quran is very clear that Muhammad was the last 'prophet' whom GOD revealed the Quran through.

2) Tell me, did Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Noah, the twelve patriarchs, Isaac, Jonah and all the other messengers say 'I bear witness that Muhammad IS the messenger of GOD'? No, of course not! They would never disobey GOD and make distinctions among GOD's messengers. More importantly, they NEVER KNEW Muhammad. Since, Muhammad was commanded to FOLLOW the religion of Abraham who GOD delivered all the religious duties, it is impossible that the way majority of muslims do their salat today is the same way Muhammad and all the other messengers prayed.

peace

34

I don't believe I asked for this information.

Please stop skirting the question you have been asked to address. You forget as it is also mentioned in the Quran that Prophet Ibrahim PBUH prayed to Allah SWT and requested him SWT to raise prophets from his progeny. What pathetic logic you have displayed, it answers nothing neither does it help anything.

So elaborate on religious duties as you mention it.

Please list exact steps of how you pray. Like when we pray .... we start with Niyah, then Takbir, then fatiha, Ruku, Qiyam, Sajda, Tashshahud etc .. conclude with Salam.

Don't even bother to post unless you can give your steps of Salah. Once you do provide evidence of it from the Quran or prove that it is the Hanif way of prayer.

35

Re: Ablution and Science

So submitmj .... should we assume you do not pray since you cannot list the steps you follow?

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This is how you pray. Of course, you will reject this because you reject GOD’s proof in the Quran (math miracle). Nevertheless, go to 1:14:04 mark of the video to see the salat prayer performed the way all the messengers and prophets did it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6069401568125438714&hl=en#

peace

37

ok. so what is the source of this method of offering ‘prayer of contact’. is it elaborated in the quran? you said ’ the way all the messengers and prophets did it.’ so that what was being stressed by others that sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) is also very important.
Why did you bring ‘math miracle’ here? What is the relevance regarding Ablution and Prayers?

38

I did not ask you to post a video. I don’t have time to go through a 1.5 hour video. If you pray 5 times a day, is it so difficult for you to post the steps you follow in a few sentences. It should be on the tip of your tongue.

And the fact that you went off for so many days searching for some video inherently proves that you don’t have any idea how to pray or do pray at all. This is the height or hypocrisy and ignorance.

I do not reject anything that came from Prophet Muhammad SAW, whether it be the Quran or hadith but I know the difference between the two.

Now please post the steps of your prayer and do not go off googling for another video.

And stop talking about math miracle, I’m not interested in it. I’m only interested for you to post the steps you follow when you pray five times a day or however many times you are praying during the day. Stop creating diversions.

Pak vessel explodes itself after Indian Navy's chase.
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I put the exact point on the video to see it done correctly. The 1:14:04 mark. That sure does not sound like 1.5 hours now does it. So, why should I type when I can post a video. It is much better. Your just looking for any excuse not to learn the truth.

I did not go ‘running off for days’ looking for a video. There is more to life than just sitting on your computer sending forum postings all day.

40

If you are so intent on teaching me the truth then put it down in words here. Surely, you are robbing me of my request. My request is that you type it for me here, if you sincerely care for my success at heart, then do me the favor. Write it down here please … thats all. What good of a muslim brother are you if you cannot do me such a small favor. I DO NOT care about the video, I WANT IT from you in WORDS. A small request. Is it too difficult.