A Zionist visitor

[mercenary2k]

@라시드

Funny how some people are trying to discuss the Palestine issue with an Israeli, who I assume was brought up like any other Israeli, believing from childhood on that his people are the victims and the Arabs the perpetrators.

Keep on wasting your time on him. Good Luck.

Funny how some people are trying to discuss the Kashmiri issue with an Pakistani, who I assume was brought up like any other Pakistani, believing from childhood on that his people are the victims and the Hindu the perpetrators.

Notice...I just replaced a few words and how it nicely relates to Pakistanis... :)

[Nosherwan]

Long live India-Israel friendship.

You both have something in common.

You both persecute Muslims and illegally occupy their land.

You are both settling your own religions in Muslim areas to change the demography.

One day Kashmir will be a part of Pakistan and Palestine will be a part of the Arabian Peninsuala, Insha Allah.

[quote]
It was you who mentioned about Christians ,pretending as if nothing is happening or forgetting Christans are being harassed and attacked in Pakistan.
[/quote]

There have been cases of anti-Muslim (Kashmir, Gujarat etc.), anti-Sikh (Harminder Sahib), anti-Christian (Orissa etc.), anti-Dalit etc. violence in India, does that mean all Indians are like that?

You're a typical brainwashed Indian (no offence to Muslim Indians, they are my brethren).

I thought you were one of the level-headed ones but no you're all the same.
I agree there are a few nuts in Pakistan who might do bad things to minorities but they are a minority and it's not exclusively a Muslim/Pakistani problem.

Don't make accumptions about Pakistan based on the brainwashing you get from your Star TV, some Pakis are fcuked up but not half as much as we're portrayed.

Most Pakistani Muslims co-exist peacefully with Non-Muslims, Sikhs have lived happily in Pashtun areas for decades and Pashtuns are the staunchest Muslims, when Yatris from India come local Muslims consider it an honour to be hospitable to the Sikhs, there are churches everywhere in Pakistan (Isb and Pindi are full of the most beautifullest churches in the world), the elders say they even had cordial and friendly relations with the Hindus living in our village prior to independence even though the Hindus considered the Muslim majority to be Apavitr (Dirty) and would not even eat food or water touched by a Muslim.

[Nosherwan]

So you like anti-Zionist or non-Zionist Jews. Well, it is understandable for an anti-Zionist. May I ask you how you feel about Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Salman Rushdie?

Apparently, you have some sort of a bias against Europe and people who lived there. What is wrong with Europe? So the Jews who came to Israel from Morocco, Iraq or Yemen (Mizrahi) are OK, but those who came from Poland, Romania, or Russia are not. Why is that? You now, Europe and Asia are not really different continents. They make a single piece of land called Eurasia.

Dude, Jews from Romania are Ashkenazis, Jews from Bulgaria are Mizrahis. Do you know that Romania and Bulgaria actually border each other?!?!?!

I have nothing against European people, I live in Europe and I love it, I think European (white Christian) people are some of the most level-headed and tolerant in the world.

I've not got anything against the Ashekenazi Jews, there are some lovely Ashekenazi Rabbis who are Anti-Zionism and I once knew a lovely old Jewish couple. I actually look at some Jews and think "hey they worship my Elohim/Allah" and I feel a kind of connection to them because of that.

I don't neccesarily hate the Zionists who do not believe in persecuting Palestinians but I disagree with their political views because all Israel has done is persecute the Palestinians and I think the majoirty of Zionists just put on a false fickle politically correct facade, I think what they say and what they believe is completely different...

...With us Muslims what you see is what you get, we're not allowed by our religion to be hypocrites (munafiq) so our beliefs are an open book, that's why Zionists can do what we in Urdu call Mazloomiyat ki aaR mein Zulm.

I just believe that the Middle East belongs to the Middle Easterners, the Semitic people (Arabs, Hebrews), whether they are Muslim, Christian or Jewish and yes Arabs are also Semites so Zionists are Anti-Semitic.

Ashkenazi Jews are European and that's where they belong, that's all I'm saying, I've nothing against Jews or the Ashekenazi as a people.

[AlexB]

Peace AlexB

Oh, no you have mistaken me. I never said you are being aggressive. No no ... I was saying that you are creating aggression in us aimed at Zionists, by being obtuse about the subject matter. You can't take it that people don't like Zionism and hence you have decided to combat the prevalent opinion (which happens to be the truth) by pointlessly and without evidence simply rejecting our opinions.

I If I've misunderstood you about the non-starter issue, please feel free to tell me what you consider "a starter".

Zionism is a failed idea and it will never achieve what it aims to achieve. Jews will never be admired by the whole of mankind until and unless they become better in conduct and virtue in which case they will resemble Muslims and through truth they will accept Islam.

If you offer an admiration that Muslims get from "the whole of mankind", then I excuse me, I'll have to pass. Not much of an improvement. BTW, we've heard this tune from Christians as well. "If only you have accepted Jesus..."

Of course Muslims will not care about international law if it breaches civil rights and the laws of God.

Now, this is an interesting point. Are others - Jews, Christians, or Hindus - justified in honoring the international law only if it agrees with their religious beliefs? Or is this prerogative reserved exlusively for the Muslims?

I hope you realise that there is nothing you can do to change public opinion about Zionists, because you are prevented from doing the obvious honest thing ... due to a sense of self importance ... that obvious thing is to give the land of Israel i.e. Palestine back to the true heirs of that land who are the Palestinian Jews and Muslims children of the sons of Jacob ... you on the other hand are not from them.

Sorry, but according to all accounts, I am a son Jacob (aka Israel). This is the name of my people - Bnei Israel (aka Jacob).

[AlexB]

@Nosherwan

I have nothing against European people, I live in Europe and I love it, I think European (white Christian) people are some of the most level-headed and tolerant in the world.

I've not got anything against the Ashekenazi Jews, there are some lovely Ashekenazi Rabbis who are Anti-Zionism and I once knew a lovely old Jewish couple. I actually look at some Jews and think "hey they worship my Elohim/Allah" and I feel a kind of connection to them because of that.

I don't neccesarily hate the Zionists who do not believe in persecuting Palestinians but I disagree with their political views because all Israel has done is persecute the Palestinians and I think the majoirty of Zionists just put on a false fickle politically correct facade, I think what they say and what they believe is completely different...

...With us Muslims what you see is what you get, we're not allowed by our religion to be hypocrites (munafiq) so our beliefs are an open book, that's why Zionists can do what we in Urdu call Mazloomiyat ki aaR mein Zulm.

I just believe that the Middle East belongs to the Middle Easterners, the Semitic people (Arabs, Hebrews), whether they are Muslim, Christian or Jewish and yes Arabs are also Semites so Zionists are Anti-Semitic.

Ashkenazi Jews are European and that's where they belong, that's all I'm saying, I've nothing against Jews or the Ashekenazi as a people.

You really did not answer my question. Why do you consider Jews who lived in Europe less Semitic than Jews who lived in Asia? There is absolutely no rational justification for this distinction, except an attempt to rationalize your bias.
And again, as an admirer of anti-Zionist Jews how do you feel about Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Salman Rushdie?

[Zapatista]

@mercenary2k

Funny how some people are trying to discuss the Kashmiri issue with an Pakistani, who I assume was brought up like any other Pakistani, believing from childhood on that his people are the victims and the Hindu the perpetrators.

Notice...I just replaced a few words and how it nicely relates to Pakistanis... :)

And I totally agree.

[khoji]

@라시드

Funny how some people are trying to discuss the Palestine issue with an Israeli, who I assume was brought up like any other Israeli, believing from childhood on that his people are the victims and the Arabs the perpetrators.

Keep on wasting your time on him. Good Luck.

Funny you think that the reason of this discussion is to convince this Israeli Khazar here. It is not. It never is.

[Arleitter]

@Nosherwan

You both have something in common.

You both persecute Muslims and illegally occupy their land.

You are both settling your own religions in Muslim areas to change the demography.

One day Kashmir will be a part of Pakistan and Palestine will be a part of the Arabian Peninsuala, Insha Allah.

There have been cases of anti-Muslim (Kashmir, Gujarat etc.), anti-Sikh (Harminder Sahib), anti-Christian (Orissa etc.), anti-Dalit etc. violence in India, does that mean all Indians are like that?

You're a typical brainwashed Indian (no offence to Muslim Indians, they are my brethren).

I thought you were one of the level-headed ones but no you're all the same. I agree there are a few nuts in Pakistan who might do bad things to minorities but they are a minority and it's not exclusively a Muslim/Pakistani problem.

Don't make accumptions about Pakistan based on the brainwashing you get from your Star TV, some Pakis are fcuked up but not half as much as we're portrayed.

Most Pakistani Muslims co-exist peacefully with Non-Muslims, Sikhs have lived happily in Pashtun areas for decades and Pashtuns are the staunchest Muslims, when Yatris from India come local Muslims consider it an honour to be hospitable to the Sikhs, there are churches everywhere in Pakistan (Isb and Pindi are full of the most beautifullest churches in the world), the elders say they even had cordial and friendly relations with the Hindus living in our village prior to independence even though the Hindus considered the Muslim majority to be Apavitr (Dirty) and would not even eat food or water touched by a Muslim.

With these statements I have bolded,I can figure out why your colleagues talked to you in the manner they talked to you ,as you have posted in your other thread.

Who will tolerate (Not even a calm and cool headed Christian Keralate) your wish for Kashmir becoming part of Pakistan and Palestine becoming a part of Arab peninsula?.Here you are expressing your wish,others in ur domain resort to violence ,labelling it as Jihad,and unleash bloody attacks on innocent civilians.I still do not know why people are not learning lessons even after 62 years of violence and bloodshed.

Again you are mentioning Sikhs in Pakthun areas.Tell me how many remain there after Taliban started threatening and forcefully collected money from them?Pindi and other areas may be having Christian population and churches but pls look at their plight now.No need to discuss abt Hindus.

There is no generalisation of Pakistanis here but the portrayal about this country,internatonal wise,is something different.We do not have time to watch tarnished media reports about Paksitan but fact is a fact and you can not deny them.

The so called Brainwahsed hullabullas will all work when you talk these to guys'(hope you know who I mean) in the suburbs of London or BMG ,but not to an Indian Muslim.The simple fact is that not a single suicide bomber has come from India even after so caled myriad brainwahsing sources andnamoonas' .Indian Muslim clearly know where they can live peacefully.

Even after the so called hues cries over Gujarat,India is respected and is admired by all in international community.Thats the difference.

[khoji]

Re: A Zionist visitor

Alex the Khazar:

[quote]
Why do you consider Jews who lived in Europe less Semitic than Jews who lived in Asia?
[/quote]

Per my last post where I cited excerpts from two different books, Jewish race is nothing but a myth, whether European or Asian.
You are a Khazar. A foreign occupier of Palestinian lands.

[khoji]

This Nazionist here called one state solution a "utopian" idea. Do you know why? Because one state democracy is the death of apartheid state of Israel.

[Nosherwan]

@AlexB

You really did not answer my question. Why do you consider Jews who lived in Europe less Semitic than Jews who lived in Asia? There is absolutely no rational justification for this distinction, except an attempt to rationalize your bias. And again, as an admirer of anti-Zionist Jews how do you feel about Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Salman Rushdie?

Why are you sidetracking the conversation? Stay on topic.

The Anti-Zionists Jews I mentioned are not some Kofer or Mumar nor are they Goyim pretending to be ex-Jews, they are devout Jews who keep the Halacha, some of them are even Rabbis.

I am not racist against the Ashekenazi (not all Ashekenazis are Zionists), I just don't agree with them stealing somebody elses land, they have more European ancestory than Middle Eastern Hebrew ancestory and just because 1 or 2 of their ancestors might have come from the Holy Land does not give them right to snatch it from those who live there now, that region belongs to the Muslims, Jews and Christians who already lived there prior to the creation of Israel.

The Mizrahi are clearly Middle Eastern, the Ashkenazi are not
Ashekenazi Jews belong in Europe, just as my descendents will also belong in Europe.

I do hope there is peaceful soloution to the Middle East. Forecfully taking what's not your is going to cause a backlash isn't it, human nature, try putting yourself in the Palestinian peoples shoes for a minute, I don't know why the Israelis do what they do to the Palis, you'd think they'd be a bit more apathetic after what the Nazis did to the Jews.

[Nosherwan]

With these statements I have bolded,I can figure out why your colleagues talked to you in the manner they talked to you ,as you have posted in your other thread.

Who will tolerate (Not even a calm and cool headed Christian Keralate) your wish for Kashmir becoming part of Pakistan and Palestine becoming a part of Arab peninsula?.Here you are expressing your wish,others in ur domain resort to violence ,labelling it as Jihad,and unleash bloody attacks on innocent civilians.I still do not know why people are not learning lessons even after 62 years of violence and bloodshed.

Again you are mentioning Sikhs in Pakthun areas.Tell me how many remain there after Taliban started threatening and forcefully collected money from them?Pindi and other areas may be having Christian population and churches but pls look at their plight now.No need to discuss abt Hindus.

There is no generalisation of Pakistanis here but the portrayal about this country,internatonal wise,is something different.We do not have time to watch tarnished media reports about Paksitan but fact is a fact and you can not deny them.

The so called Brainwahsed hullabullas will all work when you talk these to guys'(hope you know who I mean) in the suburbs of London or BMG ,but not to an Indian Muslim.The simple fact is that not a single suicide bomber has come from India even after so caled myriad brainwahsing sources andnamoonas' .Indian Muslim clearly know where they can live peacefully.

Even after the so called hues cries over Gujarat,India is respected and is admired by all in international community.Thats the difference.

What have I said which is not true?

My point is you get bad people in every religion and country, it's not exclusively a Paki/Muslim problem.

Yes some Muslims and Pakistanis are bad and they deserve to be condemned, I condemn all those Paki Muslims who give a hard time to Pakistani Christians/Hindus/Sikhs.

I spent some of my childhood in Pakistan and one of my best classmates was a Christian boy called Babar.

Your problem is you're not here to have an objective discussion, your sole aim is to prove India and Indians are all good and perfect and Pakistan and Pakistanis are all evil (sometimes you people say this bluntly other times you suggest it indirectly).

I condemn the bad apples on our side but have you also got the decency to do the same? People like you are too blinded by the Tiranga, you believe India is infalliable and can never do any wrong, you are a nationalist-extremist with the same one-sided mentality as religious extremists.

Yes there are some pricks in Pakistan who are anti-Non-Muslim but there are also plenty of extremist Hindu nationalists who are anti-Muslim, anti-Sikh and anti-Christian...

Why shouldn't there be hue and cry over Gujarat? Is the repuatation of your country so important and the blood of the poor Muslim families burnt alive so cheap?

I'm glad you have a good opinion about Indian Muslims atleast, I hope you mean that and it's not just a facade you're putting on because God knows they need some tolerance, from what one sees and hears even the most luke-warm Muslims such as Emran Hashmi and Muzzamil Ibrahim get a hard time from their so-called countrymen for being Muslim.

Not all Indians/Hindus are bad just as no Pakis/Muslims are bad...

...but your problem is you refuse to believe Indians/Hindus can ever do wrong, you are so blinded by nationalism and so worried about keeping your country's image immaculate that you want to brush every crime committed by your country and people under the carpet, you want to turn a blind eye to it, yet you are so very keen to make Pakistan/Pakistanis appear as extremist and terrorist and wont let a stone left unturned to make us appear lowly and yourselves all superior. Pakis step slightly out of line and you're shoving it in everyones faces...

You couldn't even keep cricket neutral and free of politics... No matter how much of a nice facade you try and put on your true intentions and feelings always seep through.

You want to alienate and marginalise Pakistan in every field..

[Lost_souls]

Re: A Zionist visitor

[AlexB]

@khoji

Alex the Khazar thinks that even if he is an atheist, he is still a Jew by race. He also calls himself a "scientist". I don't know what kind of an atheist scientist would "believe" in such mythology as one Jewish race. Scholars around the world agree that there is no race called "Jewish".

Jews are not a race, but a people. You know, like Arabs, for example. The concept of "a people" includes many aspects - genetic, cultural, historical, etc.
However, if we do talk about genetics I should refer you to the relevant peer-reviewed scientific publications in scientific journals.

1. Hammer et al. Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences (2000).
   "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. ... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
   The admixture from the European gene pool into Askenazim is estimated to be no more than 12.5%.

2. Nebel et al. The American Journal of Human Genetics (2001)

"Ashkenazi Jews were found to differ slightly from Sephardic and Kurdish Jews. It is noteworthy that there is, overall, a high degree of genetic affinity among the three Jewish communities. Moreover, neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardic Jews cluster adjacent to their former host populations, a finding that argues against substantial admixture of males."

1. Nebel et al. the European Journal of Human Genetics (2005)

"according to Middle Age historians, the Khazars from a small kingdom near the Caspian Sea converted en masse to Judaism and therefore might have contributed to the composition of the emerging Ashkenazi community. Yet, recent genetic studies, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, clearly showed that Ashkenazim are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe.Those findings argue against large-scale male-mediated gene flow into the Ashkenazi community during the Diaspora. The male admixture proportion of Europeans in Ashkenazi Jews was estimated to be 0.5% per generation, indicating that Ashkenazim remained, to a large extent, genetically isolated throughout their history."

1. Bauchet et al. The American Journal of Human Genetics (2007)

The study indicates that Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African populations, and in the European structure analysis they share similarities only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their East Mediterranean origins.

I can continue the list on and on.
You cannot beat science with demagogic ideology.

[AlexB]

they have more European ancestory than Middle Eastern Hebrew ancestory and just because 1 or 2 of their ancestors might have come from the Holy Land does not give them right to snatch it from those who live there now, that region belongs to the Muslims, Jews and Christians who already lived there prior to the creation of Israel.

The Mizrahi are clearly Middle Eastern, the Ashkenazi are not Ashekenazi Jews belong in Europe, just as my descendents will also belong in Europe.

This might be your wishful thinking, but the scientific research clearly states otherwise. See my previous post for references.

[Arleitter]

Re: A Zionist visitor

India and we Indians acknowledge the right of Israel to exist.

[AlexB]

This Nazionist here called one state solution a "utopian" idea. Do you know why? Because one state democracy is the death of apartheid state of Israel.

[Ignoring the offensive language]
I referred to the "world without borders" an utopian idea. I thought this was what you meant. It is a wonderful idea, but it is utopian for now. BTW, what do you think about a "one state solution" for India and Pakistan?
Happy Iqbal day.

[Arleitter]

@Nosherwan

What have I said which is not true?

My point is you get bad people in every religion and country, it’s not exclusively a Paki/Muslim problem.

Yes some Muslims and Pakistanis are bad and they deserve to be condemned, I condemn all those Paki Muslims who give a hard time to Pakistani Christians/Hindus/Sikhs.

I spent some of my childhood in Pakistan and one of my best classmates was a Christian boy called Babar.

Your problem is you’re not here to have an objective discussion, your sole aim is to prove India and Indians are all good and perfect and Pakistan and Pakistanis are all evil (sometimes you people say this bluntly other times you suggest it indirectly).

I condemn the bad apples on our side but have you also got the decency to do the same? People like you are too blinded by the Tiranga, you believe India is infalliable and can never do any wrong, you are a nationalist-extremist with the same one-sided mentality as religious extremists.

Yes there are some pricks in Pakistan who are anti-Non-Muslim but there are also plenty of extremist Hindu nationalists who are anti-Muslim, anti-Sikh and anti-Christian…

Why shouldn’t there be hue and cry over Gujarat? Is the repuatation of your country so important and the blood of the poor Muslim families burnt alive so cheap?

I’m glad you have a good opinion about Indian Muslims atleast, I hope you mean that and it’s not just a facade you’re putting on because God knows they need some tolerance, from what one sees and hears even the most luke-warm Muslims such as Emran Hashmi and Muzzamil Ibrahim get a hard time from their so-called countrymen for being Muslim.

Not all Indians/Hindus are bad just as no Pakis/Muslims are bad…

…but your problem is you refuse to believe Indians/Hindus can ever do wrong, you are so blinded by nationalism and so worried about keeping your country’s image immaculate that you want to brush every crime committed by your country and people under the carpet, you want to turn a blind eye to it, yet you are so very keen to make Pakistan/Pakistanis appear as extremist and terrorist and wont let a stone left unturned to make us appear lowly and yourselves all superior. Pakis step slightly out of line and you’re shoving it in everyones faces…

You couldn’t even keep cricket neutral and free of politics… No matter how much of a nice facade you try and put on your true intentions and feelings always seep through.

You want to alienate and marginalise Pakistan in every field..

I agree with the first bolded one underlined.Yes above all,I love my country :k:

When it comes to Indian Muslims,yes ,I am happy because they are my brothers and sisters and they have proven their loyalty to this wonderful timeless land from time to time.Thats why not a single self exploding Muslim has come off Indian Muslim community.In that aspect I always and truely believe that Indians Muslims are a a special goup of Muslims

(Again my closest dearest friend is a Muslim)

With regards to Cricket,I am not able to understand what you are trying to say…

[AlexB]

@Nosherwan

Palestine will be a part of the Arabian Peninsuala, Insha Allah.

Now, that would be a really impressive landmass movement! Of truly biblical proportions! :) :)

[AlexB]

It is not. I suggest you read the Israeli newspapers about Palestinians being evicted from Homes in East Jeruselum for no reason and Jews taking their homes and items. Its rather ironic since the Nazi's did the exact same thing.

The World has called on them to stop but the courts, the government nor the police have done anything to stop these actions. Infact they are supporting them. This is why people have such deep misgivings for Zionism because it is a fascist ideology.

Again, no one is being evicted from homes in East Jerusalem for no reason, or for being an Arab. All these things are nothing, but property ownership disputes. The Israeli court decides these issues according to the law, an impartial law for that matter. The court does not decide according to the "political correctness" or "the World" public opinion. And, yes, the law works both ways, and sometimes in cases like this the court decides in favor of the Arabs and the Jews are being evicted. These cases obviously don't make the headlines, which you usually read.

These is a good example, however, how a trivial civil suit can be exploited for propaganda purposes.