A Westerners Opinion

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I was recently involved in a discussion in the Cafe which became heated and i felt it prudent that I leave.

I think I over stayed my welcome and overstepped by bounds for which I am sincerely apologetic.

I am a mother of 6 children I am 37 years of age and a Catholic. I am seeking answers to many of lifes qustions, one of which is “Why is there so much animosity between Muslims and Non - Muslims?”

My search for answers is a genuine one, I apologise if anything I asked or continue to ask offends anybody. This is not nor has it ever been my intent.

I pulled this quote of Islamonline.net
“Others explain violence using the conspiracy scheme, meaning that behind all this violence is a diabolic design. This interpretation is quite popular; it alleviates any sort of responsibility because someone else is accountable, and at the same time it renders us impotent vis-à-vis political oppression. We are facing religious, social, and political oppressions. The human being is free; therefore one should not accept this explication. Even if some people really are conspiring against us, is that an excuse? Why don’t we make our own plan? Should we always be victimized by others?”

I know many Muslims are feeling very sensitive and distrustful of people at the moment and I am sorry for that, but you must also understand that we non Muslims are also fearful. At no time do I put myself in any higher standing than anybody else I speak to.

This conspiracy theory of some of you is very interesting. As Non Muslims believe that believers of Islam will infiltrate and take over the World many of you feel that we are persecuting you. I believe that if we talk more openly and honestly then we can be the generation who cease to propogate this hatred and world wide distrust in the unknown and the misunderstood.

Amethyst:)

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Hello Amethyst
Welcome, it is lovely to hear from somebody with a different point of view.... Im afraid I cant help you with your questions although there will be plenty here who will.

but please remember that you will get postee's who will get antaganise, and go out of their way to offend...it comes as part and parcel in religious discussions

dont let that put you off

take care

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thank you for your encouragement. I will continue my persuit of knowledge!!

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Amethsyt, the fear on both sides is because of lack of communication and can easily be dissolved if both sides open up a little. The best way to learn about Muslims and Islam is to find Muslim familes in your area and make them friends.

introduce your friends
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Hi there, You are very right. I agree with u that there are anxieties on both sides. You must remember that when a society/sect/people become oppressed in any form ( physically,mentally,verbally or emotionally), they will look for an outlet to let out the steam..the muslim world in a way i think is crying out for help to the world for someone to listen to their cause. Unfortunately, some of us resort to methods which are undesireble and dangerous which come under none of the tenets of islam.These methods do Islam no favours.

I believe that people like yourself should come to the fore and reach out as there is no doubt that u would be in a better position to help rather than a muslim coming out to help due to the general perception.

We are all humans and different personalities will react in different ways no matter what their religion.
The Irish were oppressed for many years, they ended up bombing places. Now the Muslim s feel oppressed, the result in front of you..After years of dialogue the IRA have agreed to bukle down. Why cant the same happen with muslims( Negotiations)?.
Paranoia will continue to worsen and distances will widen on both sides if people don't decide to have a bit of commonsense and go back to the basics ,ie communicate and identify griefs and anxieties.
Please, take my word for it that Islam abhores violence in any shape or form esp. against women & children..There is literature in the Quran that talks of offence..but one needs to read it in context to the circumstances at that time.
Please feel free to ask any question that you may be feeling uncomfortable with regarding Islam.

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"Why is there so much animosity between Muslims and Non - Muslims?"

Hi

I appereciate your question and its good to see that a Non Muslim is open minded and willing to listen. i know there are loads of people like you and we have met loads as me and a few mates hold a table in our local city centre weekly giving away free books and leaflets regarding Islam and the misconceptions about Islam and believe me we get all sorts of people asking us questions.

Your question has been put forward to us before and a brother who is involved in the work answered the question as he is a student of a Islamic Scholar. i will get him to answer this question but i too will say what i can.

The reason there is so much hatred is beacause of our Religous beliefs. we Know that we have the very word of God in our hands which is the Qur'aan. The Qur'aan is a book in which Allah tells us how to live our lives, how to treat others wot laws to live by and also about our relationship with the non Muslims. Allah tells us in the Qur'aan to invite the non muslims to Islam for there Salvation and we can prove that the qur'aan is the real and divine message overtaking any world religion. The problem starts when some of the non muslims believe they can set there own laws and punishments for a crime commited by people whereas us Muslims believe the only way to live a peaceful life is to rule by Allahs laws. you are a mother and im sure you know what is best for your kids and im sure you want the best for your kids so u would tell yr kids, liv like this, eat like this and u would teach them things 2 help them in future and in life. In the same way we as muslims are Allah's slaves and he created us and he knows us best and knows what will make us listen what will scare us, what will make us happy etc and that He ALONE has the right to rule. now you luk arnd the world and the places where people hav implemented Man Made laws? what do you see? im sure i dnt hav to explain as you must already know the filth that takes place. The Problem here is we wanna live by Allahs law and we want a state ruled by Sharee'ah(Allahs Laws) and to be quite frank. we want to Dominate the world but no the Domination in which we oppress the people, NO! domination in making Allahs word Supreme which will b beneficial even for the Non muslims and you do not hav to be muslim to liv in an Islamic State. jus simply follow our laws. History has stated that wen the jews and christians lived in an Islamic State when Islam was Powerful, they would write letters to there families bak home saying they were more happier under the rule of the muslims than there own.

i have to go cos family needs attending but if u send me private message wiv yr email we can discuss it further. i have alot more to say so make sure u reply.

Faisal Al Salafi

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I see the problem being that each Country has its own laws and one Religion cannot expect to wipe out entire Legal systems and take over every Country in the World! My goodness.. I wonder why people fear Muslims!

Dominate the World? Sounds rather Communist to me? didn’t Hitler say something similar? “Get rid of anything and anybody who does not follow what I believe in” What happened to accepting everybody for who they are and respecting the fact that everybody his different opinions and beliefs?

introduce your friends
introduce your friends
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^ I think muslims feel the same way about Western Capitalism (American style) and Democracy taking over the rest of the world. Although of course, democracy and capitalism are incompatible, so the US really actually has a capitalistic system, and a few features of democracy built into the system. Kinda sorta why some people might get angry when they see Americans going into other countries with the slogan of liberating them with democracy...since even the US does not practice democracy...its not exactly being honest and sincere in its claims that its trying to spread a democracy.

Although some democratic principles can be tied into an Islamic government, muslims believe that law comes from the Quran. To have a society that is free to decide what is morally right and wrong is something that doesn't go down well with muslims.

But I think more than this, its when they see American troops going into a muslim country - patrolling it - immersing themselves into the politics of the area - essentially taking over a country as American media themselves describe it in Iraq and to some extent in Afghanistan - that's where they get pissed off.

I don't think non-muslims understand that for a muslim, the muslim living in China is no different from the muslim living in Iran or Turkey. What happens in one area of the world to muslims affects muslim sentiment all over the world. This is clear when we see hijab bans in France to Turkey's government essentially trying to deny their own muslim background.

Essentially, muslims are now becoming afraid of the everexpanding American empire - under the guise of democracy, commercialism, and capitalism. Muslims just fool themselves into thinking that they have the right to dominate the world in a khalifa FOR THE TIME BEING when most muslims and muslim govt's don't know the A, B, C of Islam.

-------------> Time Pass forever with Anwaar Qureshi :~)
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Faisal as salafi has made some very good points but i would beg to differ in some regards..Let me try to kill 2 birds with one stone..Islam talks about "Jihad" meaning an internal struggle..Unfortunately many muslims and most of the non-muslims take this to mean a "holy war", ie, go out and kill the infidels so that we can rule and dominate the world..I think that is a very dangerous perception, and from Amethysts and many other non-muslims i'm acquainted with, one gets the feeling that these are obvious anxieties..It rips me to shreds when i hear muslims talking about domination when we can't even decide amongst ourselved as to which day to have Eid ( religious day) even in the same city. We don't even have a viable leader or administrator so how can we even talk about domination..we need to put our house into order first which unfortunately is in chaos. We can give 100's of viable reasons for being oppressed but we can't shy away from the fact that we need to look internally first and be honest enough to admit our mistakes and wheather we are really following true islam.
I really hate the word domination..it sounds very much like what the US govt. is attempting to do. It is no where stated in any Islamic literature that it should be our aim to dominate. Yes it is our duty to spread the word of God just like other religions do, but in a peaceful way. In this day and age i feel that the best way to do that is to be good examples ourselves..We must remember that the holy prophet attracted individuals thru his personality..He was'nt called Al- Ameen ( the trustworthy), by the non-muslims for nothing.
Lastly, i feel that non-muslims have to let go of their own insecurities of Islam.. Islam is a religion of choice. If u like it, u will be warmly incorporated, if u don't then your choice should be respected..Islam has been the fastest growing religion in the past 50 years. How many of us can remember an Islamic country invading a non islamic one in these 50 yrs, or people being forced to accept Islam..There must be something in the religion to make it the fastest growing.
Amethyst, please tell us your views as to how u think both parties can contribute.

Marriage resgistration in uk?
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Faisal as salafi has made some very good points but i would beg to differ in some regards..Let me try to kill 2 birds with one stone..Islam talks about "Jihad" meaning an internal struggle..Unfortunately many muslims and most of the non-muslims take this to mean a "holy war", ie, go out and kill the infidels so that we can rule and dominate the world..I think that is a very dangerous perception, and from Amethysts and many other non-muslims i'm acquainted with, one gets the feeling that these are obvious anxieties..It rips me to shreds when i hear muslims talking about domination when we can't even decide amongst ourselved as to which day to have Eid ( religious day) even in the same city. We don't even have a viable leader or administrator so how can we even talk about domination..we need to put our house into order first which unfortunately is in chaos. We can give 100's of viable reasons for being oppressed but we can't shy away from the fact that we need to look internally first and be honest enough to admit our mistakes and wheather we are really following true islam.
I really hate the word domination..it sounds very much like what the US govt. is attempting to do. It is no where stated in any Islamic literature that it should be our aim to dominate. Yes it is our duty to spread the word of God just like other religions do, but in a peaceful way. In this day and age i feel that the best way to do that is to be good examples ourselves..We must remember that the holy prophet attracted individuals thru his personality..He was'nt called Al- Ameen ( the trustworthy), by the non-muslims for nothing.
Lastly, i feel that non-muslims have to let go of their own insecurities of Islam.. Islam is a religion of choice. If u like it, u will be warmly incorporated, if u don't then your choice should be respected..Islam has been the fastest growing religion in the past 50 years. How many of us can remember an Islamic countries invading a non islamic one in these 50 yrs, or people being forced to accept Islam..There must be something in the religion to make it the fastest growing.
Amethyst, please tell us your views as to how u think both parties can contribute.

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Hello Amethyst, and many welcomes...you are very blessed! 6 kiddies? My GOODness!! Bless YOU!! may they all bring joy and pride to your family.

I am similar background to you, married to a Pakistani Muslim man....and I have gone on a very similar quest for understanding. I've found many beautiful people along the way and other, less beautiful minds that I feel are troubled and troublesome....they are sometimes known as the "madrassah brigade" on this site.... not to worry about them, just keep on keeping on, maybe one day (INSHALLAH, God Willing) they will understand and open their hearts and minds....it will take people like us who truly CARE to convince them that different people, different religions, ITS ALL OK, OK?

Not to worry when they attempt to "beat you up"...just keep on with your message and your quest for understanding. If you get through to even one misguided, unhappy and resentful youth then you have more than earned your place in Heaven!

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Doc, Mamaof, thank you for your replies. Quite frankly I was beginning to feel truly fearful after receiving faisal as salafi's reply. Visions of "world domination" and "taking me over" have haunted me since i read that message. May I rob you of a view minutes of your time so that i may explain how I feel on some points?

  1. I fully support what the Coalition Forces are doing in Iraq. My husband has been in the Australian Military for 22 years and he and his fellow Members are truly interested in only protecting those who cannot protect themselves whilst answering the calls for help from many countries and Governments in the world. Please let us not forget that it was the opressed leaders of Iraq who asked The Coalition to help them to dispel Sudam Hussein and the Taliban. It was not an "invasion" as a lot of people believe. Osama BinLaden is a real person and not a fictional character made up by George Bush Snr as some on this site believe. Please remember that members of his family have personally said on World Television that they do not support his beliefs or agenda.

  2. The world is full of opression. Many races, creeds, religions and groups believe that their way is the only way. I am sorry and feel awfully for all of the men women and children caught up in conflicts around the world. if I was in charge, i would put everybody back into their own corners, I would give the jews an island that they could call their own, I would work to stop all discourse caused by greed, ignorance and ego. I would also ask that all religions include in their Mantras that patience and understanding of others beliefs be paramount.

  3. I would also like to see that anybody who leaves their homeland to make a new country their home, respects the laws and religions of that new country. I am SICK to death of hearing that our Australian children are not allowed to sing christmas carols, or put up christmas trees or celebrate Easter because it upsets some other group?! My god If I moved my family to India for example, imagine how they would like me getting on the news and saying that they should kill all their cows because I like eating steaks!

Come on let's stop pretending to be god faring and patient, when we are really all being biggots, racists and totally undeserving of "Gods" love.

I want to love everybody but when i take my child to Day Care and I am told that this year we won't be having a Christmas Tree because there are some Muslim kids whom it would offend or when I hear of fathers being discluded from School Swimming Carnivals because there are Muslim girls who are wearing bathers and it is their belief that men must not view them dressed this way, I really get very angry but more importantly I get very very sad.

What is happening to our world? you know we have huge problems in Australia with our Indiginous people because they get so much more then the rest of the countries population, these kinds of things cause bigotry and hatred. I hope I am making sense, but after the week I have had listening to all this war talk and griping about Muslims this and Non Muslims that, I am really getting to the end of my patience.

Have a lovely day everybody, I hope I don't offend anybody by my honesty

Amethyst

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Those are very noble goals and intentions...but get a hold of a book written by an american reporter embedded with the marines titled, "How we lost Iraq"....It pretty much illustrates in details how exactly the coalition went about and still trying to liberate Iraqis....including but not limited to bombing/massacaring women, children and the old in Falluja....In the falluja offensive the author cites numerous incidents of utter butchery by the coalition forces...e.g. blowing up the car of a middle aged women who tried to flee the city just prior to the coalition assault on Falluja and the 12 year boy, sporting a surgical mask and operating as an assistant to the city morgue crew burying one innocent civilian after another....and the only insurgent that were the poor old people and women and children who could not get out...off course the real insurgent fled long before the incompetent and beligerant amricans arrived....

Why do Pakistan women dress like Arabs in America?
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Amethyst, wasn’t I right about asking on the board instead of a chatroom?

Look at the great and detailed replies…Read your heart out…Who writes long monologues on chat anyways? :smiley:

Amethyst, for every ideology or philosophy you study, you must also study its history…One does not forget the consequences of having wrought something based on that ideology…

Muslims don’t distrust non-Muslims on a personal basis, but history teaches that non-Muslims have wrought much devastation upon the earth…My examples of history remain the same…

In Abrahamic religions, Pharoahs, Romans, people of Lot and Sodom…

I chronological order in which thousands if not millions died…They are the settling of the Americas, the crusades, The Inquisition, Vietnam, World War I, World War II, Incas, Bosnia, Chechnya, Palestine, the wars between the empires of England, Portugal, Spain, France, the occupations of Libya by Italy e.t.c. e.t.c…I can go on, but you I am sure, you know more recent ones…

How many were started or by carried out by Muslims in the above examples?

In contrast, look at Islamic history…History written by whom? By those who lived at that time…Like the Rabbis of Spain, who under the Moors wrote that for the first time they had found freedom…Saladin Ayubi, the rule of the Mughals in India, about whom Swami Tara Chand writes that the glitter of Hindustan came from the touch of Muslims…

Except for that useless war between Iran and Iraq and a few scattered incidents, I don’t see Muslims having waged war based on greed or imperialistic reasons..

America is a hero…It is there to save the day, everyday…And like every hero, it needs an arch nemesis, someone to defeat to come out the victor, shining in its glory…Its the truimph of good over evil…And if there exists no villain, then create one…I can describe to you in detail how this describes the Nazi mentality, but maybe later…

Over the years, the media gave you the bad guy…Someone to boo…First, it was the Indians, then the British, then each other, then the Germans, then the Japanese, then the Communists, then the Vietnamese, then the Russians, then the Cubans yadda yadda yadda, guess whose turn it is now?

So, my first advice, shut off American media now…You seem a genuinely interested person…Go to a Muslims house…If you think we are distrustful, then just notice the way he greets you and welcomes you…How would an Arab be treated if he knocked on a house in Evansville Illinois…?

You distrust somebody when you fear somebody…Muslims are rarely distrustful and fear little from anyone…

Muslims by nature are a shy bunch…We are very much akin to the Buddhist monks, whose life is dictated by some moral rules by which he spends his waking hours…Similarly, a Muslim is supposed to lead his life and actions by some code…Except there is one difference…

If we or anyone from our community is threatened by violence or persecution, then we are to gather an army and fight until the aggressor is defeated…If peace is offered, then the Quran says, immediately cease fighting and return to home…But if peace is broken again, then to do to the aggressor, as the aggressor tried to do to you and to make an example of him…So it does not happen again…

This distrust is not the Muslim’s doing…It was created by the media, solely to induce a belief that there is an enemy, and the hero is there to protect you…Why does the word ‘terrorist’ bring a Muslim to mind? Why not McVeigh or IRA or the UNABomber…

Why is the ‘terrorist’ an ‘Islamic terrorist’? Why not an Arabian, Libyan, Egyptian, or Russian terrorist? Why ‘Muslim radical’, ‘Islamic fundamentalist’ or ‘Islamic radical’…

I don’t distrust you so you have no reason to distrust me…I do distrust the American media and government…I don’t like them…

You, I have nothing to fear…:flower1:

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I am disappointed that nobody even seemed to read my last post. No body even addressed my points...

This tells me that you are not really listening to my side of the discussion. This, I believe is why we have the problems we have.

Amethyst

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Amethyst, it was sad for me to read about the changes made in school due to christmas....in my son's school, the had a "Holiday" party - not a christmas party. All the children learned the song "We wish you a merry christmas" but it was modified - they sang the christmas part then happy qwanzaa, happy hanukah and even, yes, happy ramadan. It was beautiful, they learned something about each and celebrated all.

So this school, rather than ignoring the holiday, added to it and made it that much more special, for everyone.

Perhaps you could suggest something similar?

Chand Raat around the world (merged)
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I think its hard for Americans to find Muslims they can relate to.. Even the moderate Muslims, who arent that religous have views that are miles apart from their white christian counterparts. On the other hand, you have the religous and very religous Muslims who are completely different from anything the American are used to. I mean, even I have a hard time relating to beard walking down the street with his covered up wife walking behind him.
I personally am no a religous person and find it difficult t relate to some Americans. Its just the reality in a multi cultural society..
This is really what the problem stems from, inability to understand each other because the two cultures are just sooooo different. I dont think its about like or dislike, its simply that neither side can relate to the other.

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I am really saddened to read your views ( moreso the reasons for your views) regarding your support for the "invasion" of Iraq..First of all, the coalition did'nt go in ( or did not say that they went in) to Iraq to rid the oppressed leaders of a brutal leader ( By the way, i'm in no way & never have been unlike the west, a fan of his)..The sole reason/excuse was to find the so-called "WMD". So the "invasion" was/is based on pure fabrication. I don't think i want to talk about that further as its a seperate discussion..the Taleban( the illegitimate child of the west) were never present in Iraq ( Tony Blairs own words).. Since the invasion, there have been bitter individuals/groups ( internal & external) who have started to vent their feelings in inappropriate ways.
Muslims like myself are in a dilemma as we neither agree with US/British policies regarding these attacks (or manner of these attacks) & nor do we endorse the way certain muslims have recently conducted themselves ( suicide bombers in London etc)..This is a recipe for feeling isolated. But Britain consists of great people who i have noticed to be making efforts ( Muslim & non Muslim). So all is not lost.
what u have/are experiencing is sad and surprising to me. I think that there has been less of this experience in the UK ( or especially the part of UK that i live in).
My son happens to go to X-mas parties & non-Muslims tend to wish well or have attended Eid parties here.So its a contrast from your locality.
I think what is neede is understanding of each others needs.Yes, i agree though that if one goes to live in another country, one needs to respect the countries culture & rules.
What u need to understand that yes we should all strive to live in harmony. But rememberthst we live in a multicultural society & the only way to live in harmony is to have mutual respect and understading..If that does'nt happen then there will be problems.
And by the way, all of us are'nt biggots , racists and non God fearing. Its just a few of us who spoil it for the rest.

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Thank you for your replies, I appreciate your honesty. Firstly can I please say I am NOT American. I was born in England in 1967 and moved to Australia with my family in 1969.

Weapons of Mass Destruction, now there is a subject! Do you know why the Americans went into Iraq looking for those weapons, those same weapons that Sudam Hussein has sent to another country to hide for future use?? Because America sold those WMD to Iraq when Iraq was an ally.

The Pentagon know exactly what was sold to Iraq, they know exactly what is missing.

My main concern is that these WMD are still out there!

Secondly, I'm sorry to say this again and it won't make me very popular I know, but I ODN'T WANT TO BE MULTICULTURAL!!

At least I don't want it forced on me. I know for a fact that if I moved to Indonesia and put my children in an Indonesian school I could not ask them to teach the rest of the school Christianity just beacause I am a Christian. Indonesia might not be the best example, but you get my gist.

Amethyst

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Ahh, the futility of selling out…no matter how hard you try you can’t change your skin tone…and yes americans and for that matter westerners would always to motivated by such superficialities…

Happy Birthday Sonia Jee