A Shameful Heritage....

Perhaps, never before have I felt this, but I somewhat reluctantly admit that I am feeling ashamed of calling myself a Pakistani.

A number of things bother me about Pakistan, and I question them every day.

As a nation we passed two constitutions, but utterly lacked the honor and respect required to uphold it. We are probably the only nation that, without any intensive foreign ivolvement has destroyed its political and legal systems completely. More than a modern democracy, Pakistan’s poltical system resembles the barbaric rule, where the ‘might is right’ mentality is still at work. The biggest aggressor being the Pakistani Army that considers it its birth right to rule.

Economically, we ae standing far behind our peers. We have one of the highest inflation rates in the world, and the Government keeps fooling the people with is ‘magical numbers’ concerning economic growth. The growing income disparity is evident in virtually all parts of the country. The recent property boom generally helped the rich get richer, and at condemned the poor to never be able to change their condition. For someone who did not own property before the boom, it has become almost impossible to ever be able to buy any during the course of his/her life. The Government tells us about GDP growth, and assuming their figures are correct, this growth is primarily limited to the ultra rich, with absolutely no ‘trickling down’ effect.

Culturally, we are quite an unethical nation. It seems that most people are in for the race of making as much money as possible without any moral burden. The rich never miss a chance to flaunt their wealth, and abuse the power whenever they can. I can safely say that in a country like Pakistan, given enough power and resources, you can get away with committing murders on streets. Just have a look at some of the MAy 12th videos in Karachi.

Doesn’t it give you a good laugh when a military dictator and his goons, who are in a continual violation of the constitution, give constitutional references in regards to Chief Justice’s removal?

Is there really any difference between those in power, and the ones challenging it (in, however, uncivilized manner)?

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Who are those peers? US and UK or is it Den-Marrak?

Economic comparison with far off places won't get you anywhere.

Economic comparison with next door regions will.

Here is a quick check for your kind of whiners. Be at any border area of Pakistan and look on the other side. If they all driving BMWs while you can't afford a Tonga, then you may have a point.

Specifically!

  1. Stand at the border of Sindh and look on the other side. Do you see 100 story sky scrapers?

  2. Stand at the border of Punjab and look on the other side. Do you see better airports or bigger mansions?

  3. Stand at the border of Balochistan and look on the other side. Are Iranian Balochis (even if Iranians have more oil and gas) are flying personal jets?

  4. And last but not least, stand on the border of NWFP, and look at the Afghanis. Unki to maan he mar gaiy hai (they are in really terrible shape).

So either prove that Pakistanis are not better off compared to their neighbor or F the $hut up.

Thank you.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Question.....who is forcing you to remain a pakistani ?.......... i asure you gov. of pakistan wont issue a fatwa for surrenderng the nationality.....
**
And please dont compare our 60 year old country with 400 to 500 year old countries.... thats just not fair......

Re: A Shameful Heritage…

Don’t let pure passion corupt your opinions.

First off, India is a biuch bigger country to manage, and in my opinion, considering its size, they have managed it quite well. In 1978, China’s per capita GDP was $148, whereas that of India and Pakistan in the same year was $236 and $260, respectively. In 1996, India had a per capita income of $380, Pakistan $480, Bangladesh $260 and Sri Lanka $740. India’s per capita GDP now stands ahead of Pakistan’s, and that too with a much bigger population to manage.

If you’re talking about Afghanistan, mind you, that Afghanistan is a country plagued by war for last 30 years. It has barren lands, and perhaps no oil and other (major) natural resources to help economic growth. Had they not been in the war, they too probably would’ve overtaken Pakistan in terms of conomic growth.

India has developed a political system, where the Army would never dare take over the government. Pakistan ranks 12 on the failed states ranking, and we are among the lowest on HDI. We had the lowest economic growth in Southeast Asia (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal) in last 30 years. China, on the other hand, remains beyond any comparison.

Our literacy rate is also the lowest among Southeast Asian countries.

Could you please elaborate on what we have accomplished in terms of economic development for the masses and building political and legal systems?

SOURCE (for economic figures): BBC NEWS | South Asia | India's economic report card

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

people should read their own articles before linking them:

from the bbc link above

"...Equally surprising is that 35% of India's population lives on less than $1 a day, which is comparable to Bangladesh's 36% and much worse than Pakistan's 17% and Sri Lanka's 6%..."

also the numbers on this article are very dated. pak's per capita gdp is currently $925. india's per capita gdp is marginally lower. its hard to find what india's per capita gdp currently is because i suspect, indian govt is ashamed of the number. instead indian govt publicizes gdp on a ppp basis which involves lots of accounting juggelry. even by ppp basis, pak stacks up pretty well against india as measured by teledensity and car ownership. where india outshines pak is on the success of its services/IT industry. also india's economic growth is higher than pak because india moved on reform trajectory much before pak did. while india was implementing economic reform in 90's pak was going suffering mismanagement of democratic rule. also india's large economy means that its is able to attract more foreign capital than pak can. off course unlike, india's p.r. machinery does a great job of selling india. indian govt however is more in debt than gop. look it up.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Initi sahib, I simply asked you to stand on the border and look at your neighboring areas all around Pakistan. That needs real work instead of cut and paste job from some numbering mumbo jumbo.

You said in your original post that Pakistan was "far behind" compared to his "peers". In reply I listed the peers and asked you to peer over those countries.

Have you done that? Just for your info I am going to repeat the same questions. Hopefully you'll get them this time.

Did you find 100 story sky scrappers on the other side of Sindh border?
Did you find better and shinier airports and mansions on the other side of Punjab border?
Did you see Iranian Balochis flying private jets on the other side of Balochi border?
Did you see canals filled with milk and honey on the other side of Sarhad border?

These are relatively simple questions. You don' have to paste a link here.

Doesn't matter if India is big or small. If they are governing their territories better, it should have shown up in 60 years. If Afghanis were doing better job in governing their people, it should have shown up in 60 years. Same way if Iranians were better at managing their Balochistan, it must be evident after 60 years of Pakistani existence.

So either show some documentary evidence or go back and do more homework. I hate whiners especially those who whine about Pakistan.


p.s. Analysis on GDP or PDG or DGP are good for a nice discussion with a cup of garam garam chai.

For real comparison you have to get up from the fat @$$ and do some "leg work".

Just to help you out, Look across Canada US border and you will see somewhat similar living. No border jumping, no illegal aliens dying to get in. Look at US Maxican border and situation is different.

This is what I call "border test". This is the most effective and true test and you do not need a degree from Harvard to figure this one out.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

antiobl makes a lot of sense.

as far comparing per capita gdp, its helpful to look at the numbers broadly rather than focussing on the absolute number because of different accounting methodoligies, assumptions, base year etc. for example it cant be concluded that a country with per capita gdp of $900 is much better off than a country with per capita gdp of $930. what can be ascertained is that both countries would enjoy fairly similar standard of living which would be lower than that of a country with per capita gdp of say $1,500.

also important to remember that area that is pak was not exactly and industrial or an agricultural hub before partition. and without much planning, pak is now one of the biggest cotton, wheat and dairy producers in the world. and given the poverty in the rural areas and population dependent on agriculture, its very important for pak to pay attention to this sector rather then getting caught in some sort of phony economic competition with india.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Initiator - was stating facts. SE Asia (S. Korea, Malaysia, Thailand) even China - all 50 to 60 years ago were as poor as India & Pakistan.

If you cannot even see a problem, then how can the problem be resolved. Being in 'denial' cannot improve any nation.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

antiobl: so what is good method of social/national comparison other than a paindoo standing over a wall and peaking into his neighbor's house? is sky-scraper a standard method? or is it BMW? Instead of getting all emotional why can't we look at the faults we have and analyse? or the only thing you love is rant against Mullahs?

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Your highness King Faisal! Thank you. Your description of the GDP is right on the money (literally).

We should collaborate on writing an essay for Pak newspapers.

I'd dare to add one more criteria that is relatively better for comparing different economies. It is .......................drum roll............... the annual budget of a country. Yes there is a fudge factor in budgets as well so one has to take it with a grain of salt. However the fudge factor in annual budgets is relatively small compared to the GDP and other measures. This is due to many reasons:

  1. Budget numbers are small compared to GDP so hera phairy is smaller as well.
  2. Budget deals with revenues and expenses divided in specific categories
  3. Budget numbers are only for one year and must be updated every year at a predetermined time.

So a budget per person for country is a better measure about the state of economy compared to other measures.

Here are some examples of budget based comparisons that I recently came across thanks to the advice from a friend in high place of international economic organization. BTW the figures are available on many sources such as CIA factbook.

Most of these numbers (higher of the income or expenses) are from 2006

  1. American budget is roughly $2660 billion / population 300 million
  2. Japanese budget is roughly $1650 billion / population 130 million
  3. Pakistani budget.......................$26 billion /...................160 million
  4. Indian budget .........................$145 billion/..................1,130 million
  5. China ......................................$490 billion/..................1,322 million

Budget factor: Budget/population (larger number the better)

  1. USA $8.87
    1. Japan $12.69
    2. Pakistan $0.16
    3. Indian $0.13
    4. China $0.37

Times Pakistani budget (more than 1 good, less than 1 not good)

  1. USA 54.56
    1. Japan 78.11
    2. Pakistan 1.00
    3. India 0.79 5.China 2.28

This shows that we have to do what Japanese do. Copy them and our budget factor will soon be 78 times where we are now.

However do not do what India is doing. Their budget factor is 20% less.

If we do what China is doing, we'll roughly double our economy.

So it is up to us to follow Japan, or may be China. But never India (until Indian ratio is more than 1).

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Malhot bhai and Captain Ji, I did post some specific numbers.

Malhot, you guys are blessed with few things that Pakistan should copy. Economy however is not one of them. India's strengths are:

  1. Indian nationalism (for internal cohesion at the expense of minorities)
  2. Indian humility (nice people with sidways shaking heads)
  3. Indian mega-industrialist dynasties (Tata, Birla, Mittels and the list goes on)
  4. Indian army as it is an exact replica of the Pak army.

Indian show-shaw-lism (socialism) and secularism are pathetic so I didn't mention them.

Bottom line is that Pakistanis should be proud of what they have ( Pakistani mega-farmers, one of the finest armies in the world), and Pakistan's prosperity that puts every neighbor to shame (even Chinese province adjacent to Pakistan is not much better than Pakistani side. However Pakistani side is much more open).

Captain sahib, you can see I have presented both simple and complex comparisons. In summary we should admire Pakistan for what it has, and strive to get what it doesn't have. That's what I call constructive attitude (instead of whining all the time - Mar gayee main baajee mar gayee).

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

There are all kinds of people who have all kinds of views, if the 'educated' lot will dismiss each other in childish behavior than why should we expect 'educated' behavior from general masses? Just like you get disgusted by people "I am ashamed of calling myself Pakistani" there are people who are disgustedby people who side with Musharraf etc, I appreciate your later response with 'facts/numbers', thanks.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

There are many other things which India got going for her i.e. abolished fuedalism (took away lands from the landlords), their army never interferred in civilian matters. I am sure Indian governments were not angels either during the times our military took reigns of our country several times. Pakistan is still suffering from fuedalism/landlordism.

Due to military take overs every few years 'democratic' sense couldn't develop in our nation, we are still struggling to establish what democracy really means and how we can live quietly (if not happily) together without mudslinging of other ethnicities/provinces. Corruption has become deep rooted now.

Re: A Shameful Heritage…

I am proud to be Pakistani :alhamd: be it a ‘mega-farmer’ or not, I support Pakistani nation but not government (current). Don’t get fooled by economical numbers alone, the loss of security due to bad political alliances has destroyed Karachi already. After ‘barbaric’ cleansing of Karachi by Naseerulla Babar in BB’s time we were in much better shape, but then full support of MQM from Musharraf has destroyed Karachi once more.

We have more dollars to spend but we run out of electricity more often, we have more dollars but we don’t have security.

BTW, I don’t like to ‘compare’ neighbors as much, its good to use neighbors for comparison to certain extent but we should be striving for setting an example instead of following others.

Re: A Shameful Heritage…

I am glad you do Captain Ji. Whatever government we have is the result of what we demand. If we all sow the seeds for military rule, we will have generals as CEOs presidents or whatever you want to call them.

If on other hand we all sow the seeds of civilian rule (i.e. rule by civil people), then Chaudhry sahib, or Khan sahib, or tamizuddin (a person with good behavior) will be our ruler.

Whatever we sow, so shall we reap. Blaming others won’t help.

Well who can deny that? However you must appreciate that our “economic numbers” are real even when our security situation is bad. If we improve our security, economic numbers will sky rocket.

Check out the post above and see what the las line says *" So it is up to us to follow Japan, or may be China. *"

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Land was usurped purely because of anti-farmer socialism and racism. Snatching land from the mega-farmers is as bad as snatching factories from Mittel or Tata. Both of these snatchings are the commie shenanigans that have failed miserably everywhere they were used.

Most of the land snatched was from Mulsim Mega-farmers and subedars in North India. It was pure spite for Muslims owning large tracts of land, and ill-thought ill-mannered policies of commie show-shaw-list Nehru. Just read the reports about commie policies in W. Bengal and how badly they failed.

I don't understand why some Pakistanis so relish the idea of snatching other people's wealth or land or industries. Bhatoo Maatto snatched banks, industries, and schools. Do we have better factories or better schools now? If we start snatching lands, our agri-industry will go down the toilet just like our industry under Bhatoo.

Commie methods of usurping someone's land never worked in the past and will never work in future.

For Indian army not taking over! Pakistanis can accomplish that task too, by sowing the seeds of love and humble (sideways head shaking) behavior.

Anyways, it is time to appreciate what we got before we let some whiners whine about Pakistan.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Exactly! And by "supporting" a dictator we are only 'sowing' seeds of future dictators.

[quote]
Well who can deny that? However you must appreciate that our "economic numbers" are real even when our security situation is bad. If we improve our security, economic numbers will sky rocket.
[/quote]

Very true, but unfortunately nothing is being done to address it (fighting "terrorist" is not the only 'security assurance').

[quote]
Check out the post above and see what the las line says *" So it is up to us to follow Japan, or may be China. *"
[/quote]

I agree that we need to follow some economic model if we don't have one of our own, we need to provide political stability and not fuel instability fire.

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Whether it was done in name of socialism or 'racism' it has helped India to stop rise to political powers of idiots who are born into 'landlord' families. It is mainly 'landlordism' which has prevented education of villagers in all provinces.

Re: A Shameful Heritage…

King-faisal and antiobl

GDP per capita (nominal) doesn’t tell you much about the purchasing power of people as it is unadjusted for inflation and doesn’t factor in CPI. India has a higher per capita GDP adjusted for PPP at $3737 whereas Pakistan stands at $2722, which makes it 37.3% higher than Pakistan’s.

**You said in your original post that Pakistan was “far behind” compared to his “peers”. In reply I listed the peers and asked you to peer over those countries. **

Didn’t I just give you a comparison about where Pakistan’s per capitaGDP stood relative to India and Sri Lanka 30 odd years ago, and where it stands now? Read my reply again! .. As for a reminder a 30 percent margin is considered huge on International economic scale. Pakistan’s literacy rate also stands below India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka. Nobody is talking about skyscrapers and private jets on the other side of the border, but had you paid more attention to what I meant by ‘peers’ you would’ve understood. In 1960s the per capita income of Pakistan and Korea was more or less equal, the latter ended up among the more developed of the developing countries, with a GDP per capita greater than $8,000 today.

**
Bottom line is that Pakistanis should be proud of what they have ( Pakistani mega-farmers, one of the finest armies in the world), and Pakistan’s prosperity that puts every neighbor to shame **

And what ‘fine army’ are you talking about? The army that has lost almost all the major wars it fought, and has lost half of the country? On Dec 16th, 1971 Gen. Niazi surrendered to Indian army, and 93,000 of our troops were taken as prisoners of war. I wouldn’t copy and paste facts, but do your own search on how much of a damage this Army has done to Pakistan.

Do you not think that equivalent counter-parts of Tatas, Birlas and Ambanis exist in Pakistan. How about Dewans, Dawoods, Saigols, Adamjees, Manshas and many others? I think Indian economy has at least some degree of accountability, where the billioniares re accounted for and ther names published. You would never hear that in Pakistan. Just for your record, Malik Riaz of Bahria town signed contracts worth $11 billion with Malaysian companies in 2005, and he is not the biggest player in the market.

Don’t be in denial about Pakistan’s situation, for it is a country that hasn’t really progresses in social, ecnomic and political terms.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2003/10/23/stories/2003102300401200.htm

Re: A Shameful Heritage....

Captain Ji, now you are mixing two very different things: the economic side of land thievery , and political side of land snatching.

On economic side, as I said, steeling someone's land or factory is unethical commie behavior. An enlightened reasonable person like you should not defend commies.

On political side: If you look at Indian political landscape, they never had mega-farmers as dominating force in the central Indian region.

Large tracts were acquired by Muslims only in UP and some in Bihar. Sure these two are populous states, but they are just 2 out of 28 states. Even in Bihar and UP, mega farmer Muslims were tiny minority in the state assemblies.

So commie land snatching had nothing to do with changing political setup of India. It was just mad show-shaw-lism and rabid commie-ism (communism).

Ask an Indian what is it like to be a citizen of BIMARU states. Large land owners didn't make them BIMAR (sick), commie policies did.

And for crying out loud, go visit India, take trains through this beautiful but pathetically poor country. You may learn a thing or two.

During my visits I have met great Indian friends but I have seen a lot of misery too. That's why I admire certain aspect of India and avoid some not so good things (for example hairy legged Bombay women-- Oh Gaad what an awful sight).