Why is that when a muslim converts to another religion is ordered to be killed while its not the case when converting from any other religion?
I don't think there is such a rule in Islam.
It is most likely made up by the clerics. Even if there is I think it is un-Islamic to go around killing people who convert from Islam to other religions. It is their choice and they are answerable to God.
All religions channel into the same God. We believe Islam is the most perfect and best to communicate with God. If someone disagrees and finds another method better, who are we to stop them from worship our/their God.
And what purpose does killing serve except labelling Muslims as a barbaric religion.
Imad Khan
Senior Market Strategist
Aegis Financial, LLC
There is no law in the Qur'an for apostacy.
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** There is no compulsion in religion ** . The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (2:256)
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In my opinion, we are not permitted to "penalize" (in this case through death) others on the basis of their rejection of Islam. There is no compulsion in Islam. Allah is the ultimate judge for everything we do in this life:
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All cases go back to Allah (for judgment). (2:210)
Is not Allah the most conclusive of all judges ? (95:8)
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The following verses discuss apostacy, directly (and are the only ones I've ever run across in the Quran):
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Lo! ** those who turn back after the guidance hath been manifested unto them ** , Satan hath seduced them, and He giveth them the rein. (47:25)
That is because they say unto those who hate what Allah hath revealed: We will obey you in some matters; and Allah knoweth their secret talk. (47:26)
Then how (will it be with them) when the angels gather them, smiting their faces and their backs! (47:27)
That will be because they followed that which angereth Allah, and hated that which pleaseth Him. Therefor He hath made their actions vain. (47:28)
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There is no penalty given here for apostacy...although it is mentioned that in the hereafter these people will be the losers - these people are the true kafirs - who have the message revealed to them and choose to ignore it:
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Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless. (47:32)
O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain. (47:33)
Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them. (47:34)
So do not falter and cry out for peace when ye (will be) the uppermost, and Allah is with you, and He will not grudge (the reward of) your actions. (47:35)
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Achtung ;)
Mini-Me....>>Why is that when a muslim converts to another religion is ordered to be killed while its not the case when converting from any other religion?<<
I can provide you much detailed answer, in due course, but let me ask you to please dwell on the following. Remember, I am advocating nothing at this juncture, so please refrain from labeling me with any stereoptype.
You do understand the concept of treason to the state. Right? In older England, treason has included voilating King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest unmarried daughter, as well the sexual voilation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Present day England, treason includes "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it.
US law defines treason more narrowly in terms of war and military defense. In 20 century defending US means defending US ideology of liberal capatalism against the threat of communism.
Actual execution has taken place. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in June 53. Ethel was convicted as a spy. Likewise Briton has executed couple of people for the same crime.
when one reverts from Islam, it is called treason to Umma. No one compells you to accepts Islam on gun point. You are free to choose, as Achtung qouted from Qura~n (2:256)
"No compulsion". But once you accept it you become part of Umma and to deviate from the Umma has a tag. It is very fair, as far as I think.
I did not provide you any reference from Qura~n or hadith or Islamic history as I dont know how ready you are to accept the challenge!!
:)
I do appreciate your detailed answer, but the question basically came from the idea of "after you have accepted it."
"But once you accept it you become part of Umma and to deviate from the Umma has a tag. It is very fair, as far as I think".
My point is that you are born with this religion, the age of acceptance is yet to come and when that comes even then you don’t have the choice. For example; at a certain mature age the thought that you will not be accepting this religion can come and then you realize that you don’t have a choice. While this choice is not there, it is a threat to free will and this can also be repelling.
And I think there is difference in choice of religion and being a traitor, the later has more political implications.
Mini-Me.....>>And I think there is difference in choice of religion and being a traitor, the later has more political implications.<<
True. But Islam does not distinguish between mosque and religion. When one walks out of it, after coming to the age of acceptance, is nothing but treason to Umma and the constitution! And I beg to differ that one is born with religion. We are born with our race and we will remain stuck with it as long till our ashes. Religion is something one compares and chooses. It is true that we were born in a Muslim family, but merely keeping our names as Mohammad or Abu Bakr, Ali or Abdullah, or growing up with a family who offers namaz, pays fitrana and eats flafel would make us Muslims.
Allah says in Qura~n:
"........And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." (3:7)
one can be knowledgable only if one researchs into something. Only after this first hand experience, one declares as ordained. It is after this affirmation, one joins the Umma.
Later, if one revokes, wont it be fair to punish him/her. You dont pay your loan instalment, or may be you are late, a penality is imposed upon. Here the impact would be muchhh larger if everyone starts reverting to idols.
:)
Here the impact would be muchhh larger if everyone starts reverting to idols
It is very interesting to note that human beings can rationalize anything no matter how cruel it is. Killing somebody because they decide to change their religion is barbaric and cruel. People have right to experiment with various form of spirituality if they so desire and find out what works for them and it is not treason aganist the state or is anyway jeopordizes the safety of other citizens nor it is betrayal of any sorts. Religion or sprituality is a personal choice, it is about individuals personel relationship with supreme power therefore deos not effect anybody else including Ummah.
In civilized societies human rights come first and foremost and they rank higher on the list than God's rights (actually God deosn't need any rights by virtue of being God). Human rights include individual's right to choose their religion or any idealogy they want to believe in at a given time.
To kill somebody for changing their religion is denying them basic human rights which goes aganist the norm of any civilized society.
And I beg to differ that one is born with religion. We are born with our race and we will remain stuck with it as long till our ashes.
But I always believed that all people were born Muslim. That all babies are Muslim. They are innocent and pure. They are Muslims and hence if they die at a young age, they will be granted heavan, regardless of their actions. So we are born with our religion. We deviate from the path, depending on how we are indoctrinated as we grow older. If we are indoctrinated in the religion of Islam, we may become Muslims. If we reject the message of Islam, which is given to us, we are apostates, and are held accountable in the hereafter.
Achtung
Rani.......>>Religion or sprituality is a personal choice, it is about individuals personel relationship with supreme power therefore deos not effect anybody else including Ummah.<<
I beg to differ again. Islam is not free lancer kind of choice. U may have personal relationship with Allah, but no one cares and btw who wants to know that. It affects your self only. But more importantly, Islam lays emphasis upon the relationship you have with community. If I do you some injustice to you, only you can forgive me.
Rani...>>To kill somebody for changing their religion is denying them basic human rights which goes aganist the norm of any civilized society.<<
First of all, Islam provides one complete defense. And the apsotate will be offered a chance to repent but if one insists upon reverting to faslehood, there is punishment. Please dont jump into conclusions, without knowing the background of Apostasy and the consequences it has on the Umma. I have not discussed anything from Islamic history yet.
Achtung......>>But I always believed that all people were born Muslim. That all babies are Muslim. They are innocent and pure. They are Muslims and hence if they die at a young age, they will be granted heavan, regardless of their actions. So we are born with our religion. We deviate from the path, depending on how we are indoctrinated as we grow older. If we are indoctrinated in the religion of Islam, we may become Muslims. If we reject the message of Islam, which is given to us, we are apostates, and are held accountable in the hereafter.<<
Babies are born on nature. That is what Qura~n teaches us. Offcourse, all babies are innocents, be they born in Christian, Jews or Agnostics families. If they die young, offcourse they will be sent to Jannah, as they were denied the oppertunity of deciding for themselves. This is another beauty of Islam. It does not punish anyone unless he is given a fair chance. Allah says in Qura~n, that every child is born upon nature, and it is his parents, who make them Jews, Christians or Muslims.
YOu have to read the Islamic history and the manner in which apostate were dealt by the Prophet, pbuh, and khulafa e rashdeen and various other Islamic scholars about this. Were all of them wrong?? Definately NOT.
Baykhatr, I don't know of any instances where Prophet Muhammad ordered the death of an apostate...could you provide a reference?
I am aware of the 'apostacy' wars fought by Abu Bakr, after the death of the Prophet. These wars were controversial in nature though. Their existed dissent in the community - regarding the applicability of the wars vis a vis, Islamic teachings. Ultimately the wars can be understood as a necessary development in the historical context in which they occured. But different circumstances require different approaches, and I am not aware of any situation today, where death for apostates could be even remotely justified. Each hadith has a historical context within which it was said to have taken place, and we have to view those contexts, before making a blanket statement against all apostates.
I work with refugees, and I have seen many cases of 'apostates' fleeing Muslim countries and claiming refugee status in the west, citing these 'apostacy' laws as a reason for leaving their homelands - in essence out of fear from persecution. These instances are giving Islam a 'bad' name - this is not what Islamic countries should be concentrating their efforts on. When Abu Bakr initiated the apostacy wars (to my understanding), it was largely justified by the reasonings that if action was not taken, the Islamic community would dissolve, in the abscence of the leadership of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Such a case isn't evident today, these rejectors of our faith, are not a threat to our security or the the cohesion of the Islamic community (which has problems far greater than the defect of a few believers, to worry about).
The fact that there is no reference in the Qur'an describing such a punishment, only furthers my belief that no such punishment exists. Apostacy indeed is a serious sin (perhaps one of the most serious), but despite this, punishment for it seems to be reserved to Allah in the next life.
Achtung ;)
** There is no compulsion in religion ** . The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (2:256)
But if one insists upon reverting to falsehood, there is punishment.
That every child is born upon nature, and it is his parents, who make them Jews, Christians or Muslims.
Let's just make few points clear:
The presumption of being reverting to falsehood is your position and not the position of the one that is converting from Islam to another religion. In his perspective he is going for the truth. While in your point he is reverting to false hood.
So what I wanted here was something out of tunnel vision.
And on the second issue, every child is born by nature and by just baptizing or circumcision or by praying in the ear of a newborn we presume that he is now a Muslim or a Christian. And even before the age of understanding he is forced to pray and going to the mosque and church…. so all these are bombarded on him, and when he gets to the age of understanding he is threatened by punishment for something he by himself did not choose and was already chosen for him by his parents. It is like doing what your parents are doing with out understanding why.
SO my question is still the same, that why one should be punished to choose another religion.
Baykhatr .....>>First of all, Islam provides one complete defense. And the apsotate will be offered a chance to repent but if one insists upon reverting to faslehood, there is punishment. Please dont jump into conclusions, without knowing the background of Apostasy and the consequences it has on the Umma. I have not discussed anything from Islamic history yet. First of all, Islam provides one complete defense. And the apsotate will be offered a chance to repent but if one insists upon reverting to faslehood, there is punishment. Please dont jump into conclusions, without knowing the background of Apostasy and the consequences it has on the Umma. I have not discussed anything from Islamic history yet. <<
You are an educated person it is amazing to see you rationalizing something so barbaric. The translation of what you are saying in plain English is that penalty for leaving Islam is death. This kind of philosophy is widely practiced by all the gangs and some cults to prevent their members from leaving. Human History is full of oppression and blood shed that does not justify killing people in this day and age if they want to change their believe system regardless of their reason for doing so. According to my religion creator (God) loves everybody regardless of his or her religion and we all (Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs. Christians Jews and everybody else) are Gods children because he created everybody. It seems me that you are not used to seeing things in more universal and egalitarian way and you do not share this concept of God (who is truly great and kind) and loves everybody regardless of their believe system
Achtung....>>Baykhatr, I don't know of any instances where Prophet Muhammad ordered the death of an apostate...could you provide a reference?<<
sure, but let us first of all examin the topic in the light of Qura~n and Sunna. I will qoute many verses from Qura~n and later from Sunna and in the last paragraph answer your question.
Allah says:
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." (3:85)
and yet another place
"....And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever." (2:217)
and
"O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islâm), Allâh will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allâh, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allâh is AllSufficient for His creatures' needs, AllKnower." (5:54)
The hypocrites of Madina used to revile the Prophet, pbuh, secretly. In sura Tauba, Allah says
"They swear by Allâh that they said nothing (bad), but really they said the word of disbelief, and they disbelieved after accepting Islâm, and they resolved that (plot to murder Prophet Muhammad SAW) which they were unable to carry out, and they could not find any cause to do so except that Allâh and His Messenger had enriched them of His Bounty. If then they repent, it will be better for them, but if they turn away, Allâh will punish them with a painful torment 'in this worldly life' and in the Hereafter. And there is none for them on earth as a Walî (supporter, protector) or a helper." (9:74)
in sura al-Imran it is ordained
"How shall Allâh guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers). " (3:86)
and again
"Except for those who repent after that and do righteous deeds. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3:89)
so far from Qura~n. Ahadith narrated by different companions of the Prophet complement the verses ordained.
'Any Muslim who changes his deen (al-Islam) and becomes apostate cutt of his head.' (Bokhar. Chapter Hukm fil Murtad wal Murtadda-Nisaaee. Bab Al Hkum fill Murtad, Chapter Taubatul Murtad. Mouwtaa of Imam Malik and many many more ......)
Hadrat Abdullah b Masood reported from Prophet, pbuh, who said:
'The blood of Muslim who testifies to Allah's Oneness and Mohammad's prophethood can never be shed excpet for one of three reason
1-Adultry
2-Murder
3Apostasy
The same is reported by Syedna Ayesha also.
At the time of conquest of Mecca, Prophet ordered the death of Abdullah bin Abu Sarh, Abdullah bin Khatal and Miqyas bin Sababa. Two of them were killed, while the 3rd took refuge in the house of Osman bin Affan, who interceded on his behalf and the Prophet reluctantly accepted it repentence and set him free.
You must understand that apostasy is abandoning or forsaking Islam, repudiating any of Islam's basic tenets, rebelling against Allah or His Prophet, pbuh, or beleiving in any imposter after Prophet Mohammad, pbuh.
Achtung....>>and I am not aware of any situation today, where death for apostates could be even remotely justified.<<
how about Salman Rushdie? who composed a poem about the private parts of his parents and recited it the markete place of strangers, who cheered and offered him money. Is't this a classical case of 'treason'
Achtung...>>I work with refugees, and I have seen many cases of 'apostates' fleeing Muslim countries and claiming refugee status in the west, citing these 'apostacy' laws as a reason for leaving their homelands - <<
Many cases? Qoute one for example, please. If you are reffering to some depraved groups, like Mirzais or Bahais, etc...these groups have been declared non believers from Islam by the Islamic communities thru out the world. I come from Pakistan, and I have not seen even one single Mirzai being killed because of his reversion. Your statement is out of line, forgive me, please!
:)
Mini-Me...>>The presumption of being reverting to falsehood is your position and not the position of the one that is converting from Islam to another religion. In his perspective he is going for the truth. While in your point he is reverting to false hood.<<
It is NOT tunnel vision. I have qouted the Qura~n, it is Allah's view.
Mini-Me...>>And even before the age of understanding he is forced to pray and going to the mosque and church…. so all these are bombarded on him, and when he gets to the age of understanding he is threatened by punishment for something he by himself did not choose and was already chosen for him by his parents. It is like doing what your parents are doing with out understanding why.<<
Mini-Me, please do not bring the age of innocence into this issue. Those minors are exempt. The punishment applies to those who knowingly revert from Islam. If one continues practicing islamic tenets, without knowing the realities of them, it is herd instinct. Please see my response to Achtung. I have qouted verses from Qura~n and passages from sunna. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not the first one to advocate such punishment. All Islamic scholars have concluded this. You may not like or it is barbaric, sure I agree that it is barbaric. Infact all Islamic punishments are barbaric and cruel. But the saftey lies in stern punishments.
Mini-Me....>>SO my question is still the same, that why one should be punished to choose another religion.<<
And my answer is still the same. You wish to disagree with that, you are entitled to your opinion. But I suggest that please read those who have spend all their lives in the study/research of Islam.
:)
Rani jee I think the thrust of your message is that since Islamic punishment are cruel, therefore one must do away with them. right?
Well I did not design those punishments. Allah and His Rasul did. I am sure there must be much wisdom in them, than we can perhaps comprehend with our shallow vision. To me fear of Allah is enough than being affraid of being labelled as barberic by some ignorants.
To you it is your deen and to me it is mine.
:)
Baykhatr:
On the verses you've quoted from the Qur'an:
1) 3:85 - True enough, any religion other than Islam will "never be accepted" and in the " ** hereafter ** " those who choose a religion other than Islam will be the losers. I agree. No mention of any punishment in this life in this verse.
2) 2:217 - Yes, those who turn their back on Islam (apostates) will die disbelievers, their deeds will be lost in this life and they will abide in Hell in the ** hereafter ** . Notice again no mention of any punishment in this life, only in the hereafter. A punishment for Allah to decide.
3) 5:54 - again does not discuss any punishment. Only discusses the fact that despite those who turn their backs on Islam, there will always be a group righteous in their beliefs, because Allah will 'bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him'. This verse discusses love not punishment of death.
4) 9:74 - Here again it is Allah who bestows the punishment not humans, but God. This verse is discussing the plot to assasinate Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It should be understood in that historical context. There is a punishment for such behavior - for plotting to kill another human. That though is separate from apostacy. "... Allâh will punish them with a painful torment 'in this worldly life' and in the Hereafter..." Allah is punishing them, not humans.
5) 3:86 - same thing. Allah is mentioned here, no punishment is mentioned whatsover.
6) 3:89 has nothing to do with apostacy, its a discussion of Allah's mercy and kindness and love.
'Any Muslim who changes his deen (al-Islam) and becomes apostate cutt of his head.'
Can you provide the exact reference for this - the book, volume and number of the Hadith. I'd like to read it in its entirety. And also for the other hadiths you cited.
At the time of conquest of Mecca, Prophet ordered the death of...
Why were these people ordered to be killed, its not clear in the hadith, just says they were ordered to be killed.
You must understand that apostasy is abandoning or forsaking Islam, repudiating any of Islam's basic tenets, rebelling against Allah or His Prophet, pbuh, or beleiving in any imposter after Prophet Mohammad, pbuh.
These are a few separte issues. Particularly the second last issue. Those who 'rebelled' against the Prophet and threatened his life, are understandably subject to punishment. Those who falter in the path, are to be judged, in my opinion by Allah.
how about Salman Rushdie? who composed a poem about the private parts of his parents and recited it the markete place of strangers, who cheered and offered him money. Is't this a classical case of 'treason'
First off there is a difference between treason and apostacy. Treason is against the state it poses a serious threat to the security of a nation, peoples, or community. Apostacy can be an individual choice, which has little bearing on the lives of most members of a religious community. As far as Salman Rushdie is concerned, I think the man is weak, and I think he is an idiot. But I don't support any death threat placed on his head. The impact he had on Islam, was minimal. He posed no threat to Islam, none greater than any other orientalist scholarship which has aimed at ridiculing our great religion.
Many cases? Qoute one for example, please.
I cannot quote individual cases, due to a committment to insure the privacy of refugee claimants. Many of the claimants come from Africa (Sudan is one case), where they have converted to Christianity and face death in their home country.
I come from Pakistan, and I have not seen even one single Mirzai being killed because of his reversion.
But you support it - correct? You would like to kill them for their reversion? Isn't this what your saying? You would like Muslims to cut off the heads of Mirzai's and Bahais, and other people who turned their backs on the message of Islam.
Your statement is out of line, forgive me, please!
Its not at all out of line...because these refugees have strong cases, thanks to logic like your own. They indeed do have founded fears if they return home, they may be killed, because there are people like yourself, who feel that death is the punishment for the 'crime' they've committed. Who feel one should compel them to come back in the folds of Islam through force (or the threat of force), when the Qur'an strictly prohibits 'compulsion in religion'. This contradiction remains unexplained, by proponents like yourself.
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited November 11, 1999).]
Achtung.....>>No mention of any punishment in this life in this verse....
....Notice again no mention of any punishment in this life, only in the hereafter.... A punishment for Allah to decide....again does not discuss any punishment.... no punishment is mentioned whatsover.<<
Dear Achtung, where in Qura~n it is suggested that an adulterer or adulteress is to be stoned to death? Can you please qoute a single verse, suggesting such a cruel punishment?
What I am getting at is to look in hadith, if it is there. If not one looks at the verdict of Islamic shariah. You should now agree atleast, that the verse 'no compulsion' in religion does not apply to our parameters of discussion. No compulsion means that there is no sword hovering over your throat to accept Islam. But once you accept it there is no going back, as it is stated in Qura~n over and over that no other religion would accepted but Islam.
Achtung.....>>Can you provide the exact reference for this - the book, volume and number of the Hadith. I'd like to read it in its entirety. And also for the other hadiths you cited.<<
I did. I qouted the Book name. I qouted the chapter. Not only from Bokhari, but also from Mouwta. This is also reported by Ib Maja. Ch Abwab al-Hudood.
In this regard you may recall when Musailma al-Kazzab, may Allah's curse and wrath be on him, sent two of his followers to Messenger of Mercy, pbuh, informing him of his false claim of being a prophet. Mohammad, saaw, inquired from them about their beliefs. when they told him that they believed in the prophethood of al-Kazzab, the Prophet saaw, said
"I swear by Allah, were it not that the bearers of someone's message are not killed, I would have cutt of your heads beacause you have deserted and abandoned Islam and become apostate.' (abu Dawood, Kitaul Jihad)
You have yourself qouted instances from the time of Abu Bakr, although you like to paint them with fitna brush. I dont deny that. But it is reported that Abu Bakr ordered the killing of a woman who had abondened Islam. (Nail al-Autar-Vol 7)
During the time fo Omar, a diplomate from the Abu Musa al-Ashari, of Yemen came to update about the situation. After the update, Omar asked him if there was anything else he wised to narrate. The man said, 'a man deserted Islam and became an apostate. We caught him and cut his head.' Omar said, 'why did you not imprison him, provide him food, and asked him to repent. (the reason Omar suggested this was that he remembered the hadith of Prophet, saaw, wherein he has said, that 'poverty drags one to the brink of kufr'). If he still refused then it was alright for you to kill him.' (Mouwta of Imam Malik, ch Al-Qazza fil irtaad.....and many others)
Osman did the same. And so did Syenda Ali. I can qoute instances after instances.
The great fuqaha and ajmma of Islam both sunni and shi'ah school are unanimous that the pusnishment for apsotasy is death.
Achtung....>>Why were these people ordered to be killed, its not clear in the hadith, just says they were ordered to be killed.<<
As you might recall that Prophet, pbuh had offered a general amnesty for all on the day of this conquest. But these three who had taken refuge under the curtains of Ka'aba. these were renegades, blasphemous and apostates. You can read the history yourself.
Achtung....>>These are a few separte issues. Particularly the second last issue. Those who 'rebelled' against the Prophet and threatened his life, are understandably subject to punishment. Those who falter in the path, are to be judged, in my opinion by Allah. <<
To you may be. But not to the majority of Muslim Shariah.
Achtung....>>Treason is against the state it poses a serious threat to the security of a nation, peoples, or community. Apostasy can be an individual choice, which has little bearing on the lives of most members of a religious community.<<
Dear Achtung, I have said repeatedly that Islam does not distinguish between state and mosque. It is a total way of life. It is not a 'sunday is my church day' kind of an attitude. Apostasy offcourse is individual choice. But if one individual is let loose, you cannot pusnish a whole nation for the same crime. You would be accused of applying double standards. And it is each drop togather, making a ocean.
Achtung.....>>I cannot quote individual cases, due to a committment to insure the privacy of refugee claimants. Many of the claimants come from Africa (Sudan is one case), where they have converted to Christianity and face death in their home country.<<
Yes I ahve watched reports on the tv. It is more about the slavery, they run from. As regards to aggressive monetary greed provided by Christianity, to these much destitudes, I think it will be fair for me to refer you to the recent Pope's visit to India and massive demonstration of Hindu nationalists, who have protested to the practices of Christian missionaries in luring people to Christianity. This is not at all acceptable as this is more political, to isolate Sudan.
Achtung....>>But you support it - correct? You would like to kill them for their reversion? Isn't this what your saying? You would like Muslims to cut off the heads of Mirzai's and Bahais, and other people who turned their backs on the message of Islam.<<
Offcourse. I support that. I have said repeatedly, that I accept Islam as it is. I cannot pick and choose, as it pleases the West. I am orthodox in that manner, and I am proud of it. I will let the process take its course. To such depraved, a chance must be provided to repent and come back within the folds of Islam. If they still insist, then let the legal action take it course. Why must I be embarraced?? I am not the ruler. I am being ruled by Allah.
Look it is clear so far that you do not support such penal code of Islam. While you are free to choose whatever you like for yourself. It would be helpful if you support your contentions by qouting from Qura~n, sunna, Ijama or Shariah. Islam was not revealed upon you to deduce whatever you wish. There is a process and just like I have qouted, it is encumbent upon you to qoute from the books. Merely repeating the same rhetoric that it is cruel, it is barbaric, it is savage, and so on will not get us no where. To discuss something intelligently, one has to provide reference. And all of you have failed to do so. No one is interested in your personal opinion. This is Religion folder, and it is to be presented in the manner it is supposed to be.
:)
Offcourse. I support that. I have said repeatedly, that I accept Islam as it is...
So how many apostates have you killed? Islam is a way of life I agree. If apostacy is such a threat to our 'way of life' (which in my opinion, at this juncture in history it is not), than it is incumbant on you to kill these 'traitors'. Have you killed any? Do you practice what you preach? I know the answer to this is 'no you don't and haven't', I also anticipate that you may inform me that our Ummah requires an Islamic state, before such punishment can be administered. In that case I have to ask you did Prophet Muhammad order death for apostacy (in your hadith), before the firm establishment of Islam in Arabia?
To such depraved, a chance must be provided to repent and come back within the folds of Islam. If they still insist, then let the legal action take it course.
This to me is saying - take a sword to a persons head or merely threaten to take a sword to a persons head if they insist on being apostates and compel them back to Islam. This violates the Quran - 'there is no compulsion in religion' - threatening to kill someone is compulsion.
Islam was not revealed upon you to deduce whatever you wish. There is a process and just like I have qouted, it is encumbent upon you to qoute from the books.
I did quote from the Qur'an in my original posting. I will post another, quoting in more detail from the Qur'an. But I am worried that this post is going to become one of hadith versus Qur'an. Where Sunni's are so quick to take the Hadith literature over the word of Allah... I am skeptical of Hadith. And I can see in the case of apostacy how the manufacture of hadith's could serve the purpose of aiding in the justification of some questionable practices. But this topic of hadith versus Quran-only is another, not for this thread. So I'll quote some Qur'anic verses later today, and I'll also search for some Hadith's which support my argument.
In my humble opinion though, this verse of the Qur'an is quite clear and sufficient, threatening to kill someone should they leave Islam, * is compulsion * ,
There is no compulsion in religion ** * (2:256)
Achtung
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited November 11, 1999).]
If this is the case than somebody needs to go out and kill SAJJADM because he did admit that he was muslim but left Islam Later.
He said on sep 9 1999
"I have not changed my name, if you think I am lying please ask Sabah, I have only changed my religion from Muslim to Hinduism, the religion of peace and non violence unlike muslim religion. I was brainwashed by the imams and the false believers that only muslim is the true religion but it is not I only found that being a muslim I am a hypocrite praying in front of the world in open where as the religion of christianity says that people praying in the open on roads are hypocrites.
There is no other religion after the christianity. So I think any other religion born after christianity is a big hox."
Or you want to keep him for EID UL ADHIA, or may be he is not old enough for that either.
Achtung....>>Do you practice what you preach?<<
It is not for me to kill apostates or for that matter carry out any punishment prescribed by Islam or by any mundane law. It is for those in authority to do so. If each of us starts taking law and order in his/her hand, there will be complete chaos in the society. Let us not reduce ourselves to such personal statements.
As regard to the remainder of your post, I gather you are now trying to paint it with secretarian stuff. While there were very valid questions in my earlier post, wherein I had asked you to provide, reference from Qura~n re the punishment for an adulterer/ess. Don't we look to hadith for it? Don't we look to hadith while praying? Or does Qura~n tells us how to?
Let us not widen the discussion and please stay within the apostasy and its punishment in Islam. Qoute any scholar, who has rendered any judgement about it, favoring your pov. You personaly find it abhoring, I dont care and I am no one to pass judgement on your stance. And I request the same from you. Let us behave like grown ups.
:)