Punishment for the adultery as prescribed by the Quran:
024.002
YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
I wonder how many people actually searched through the 1000's of hadith to learn how to pray? I learnt from my parents who learn from theirs etc.
Sorry for the lateness of the reply...
Remember the Quran is the primary source for Muslims...not Sunnah...
This is a long post...I apoligize for that, its littered with Qur'anic verses. I have a lot more - discussing the actual punishment for apostacy, which I can post later.
1) It seems that from the Qur’an, the law of death for apostates, is a law of the kufar and not of the believers. It is a Pharonic law:
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"Said he: You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will ** crucify you ** all." [26:49]
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2) Disbelievers tried to scare Shu'aib with "death for 'apostacy'" :
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They (DISBELIVERS) said, "O Shu`aib, we do not comprehend many of the things you are telling us, and we see that you are powerless among us. If it were not for your tribe,** WE WOULD HAVE STONED YOU ** . You have no value for us." [11.91]
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3) Again its mentioned in the Qur’an as a punishment of the kufar:
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"If they (DISBELIVERS) discover you, they will ** STONE YOU, or FORCE YOU TO REVERT ** to their religion, then you can never succeed." [18.20]
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4). Abraham's disbelieving father threatens Abraham with "death for 'apostacy'" :
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He said, "Have you FORSAKEN my gods, O Abraham? Unless you stop, ** I WILL STONE YOU ** ." [19.46]
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5) They (DISBELIVERS) said:
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"We consider you bad omens. Unless you refrain, ** WE WILL SURELY STONE YOU ** , or afflict you with painful retribution." [36.18]
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6) The Pharonic law again:
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"And surely I take refuge with my Lord and your Lord that you (Pharaoh) should STONE ME (the messenger) TO DEATH." [44.20]
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7). "Death for 'apostacy'" was also practised by the disbelieving Jews on prophets who came to them:
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Say: Why then did you ** kill ** Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers? 2.91.
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8) Disbelivers tried to enforce the "death penalty for 'apostacy'" on Abraham :
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“But the answer of his (Abraham's) folk was only that they said: "Kill him" or "Burn him." Then Allah saved him from the Fire.” [29.24]
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9) Noah is threatened with "death for 'apostacy'" by disbelievers :
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“They said: If you desist not, O Nuh, you shall most certainly be of those ** stoned to death ** . [26.116]
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10) The transgressor Pharaoh decrees "death for 'apostacy'" to those who converted and chose to believe in Moses:
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“So when he brought to them the truth from Us, they said: SLAY the sons OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE WITH HIM and keep their women alive; and the struggle of the unbelievers will only come to a state of perdition. [40.25]
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So who practises "death for 'apostacy'" according to the Qur'an?
In the Quran it is the UNBELIEVERS who have been identified as those who force people to remain in their faith and threaten those who demonstrate dissagreement to their doctrines. The Qur'an is quite open in speaking about their punishments for apostacy, but no where is the clear indication from the Qur'an on their existing any Islamic punishment for apostacy. Here are a few more examples from the Qur’an:
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"And those who disbelieved said to their Messengers: We will most certainly drive you forth from our land, or else you shall come back into our religion. So their Sustainer revealed to them: Most certainly We will destroy the unjust." (14:13)
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Muslims are commanded to keep even the enemy in safety if he wishes for protection:
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"And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know." (9:6)
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Here is an interesting argument from a site I was looking at:
“The question of forcing someone to believe does not arise at all, because the Qur'an identifies 'Iman' i.e. Belief as something not just professed by the lips, but something which has entered one's heart deeply, and that is possible only if a person analyses the message through his reason and accepts it willingly:
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"The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and "IMAN" has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (49:14)
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Above verse establishes that "Iman" is something which is deep rooted into a persons heart, and in case a person does not have deep conviction on the Laws of God then that does not comprise "Iman", therefore it is not possible to force someone to believe, as then the person would merely declare his agreement by mouth while his heart would be not be inclined.
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"He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.This is because they love this world's life more than the hereafter, and because Allah does not guide the unbelieving people. These are they on whose hearts and their hearing and their eyes Allah has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones. No doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers." (16:106-109)
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The above verses clearly inform that the consequences of not agreeing to the Law of Allah are deprivation from the benefits that are acquired as a result of following the Divine guidance in our lives, and wrath of Allah is incurred upon those who dis believe. The Qur'an proclaims that man has the freedom of choice to accept or reject the permanent values of God, and he CANNOT be forced to accept those values, but has the free will to accept them, as the following verse informs:
"There is no compulsion in 'Deen' (way of life according to laws of Allah) ** ; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the rebel and believes in Al}ah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing." (2:256) *
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited November 13, 1999).]
I know that is long...but I think I should add this interesting verse from the Qur'an:
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"Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path." (4:137) *
The above verse establishes that a person does not get the death penalty for Apostasy. It identifies stages where a person believes, then disbelieves, then again
believes and after that again disbelieves. Now had the law been there stating death for Apostasy, then the above verse would not have identified these stages of belief, then rejection, then believing and then again rejecting, as a person who after believing rejects would then be qualified for Death penalty at the first instance of Apostasy, and would not have the opportunity to believe one more time again after disbelieving. The above verse is abundantly clear in describing that there is room for a person who out of any reason has turned his back on Islam, to amend his conduct and revert to the Guidance of God.
Achtung
Achtung<<..The above verse is abundantly clear in describing that there is room for a person who out of any reason has turned his back on Islam, to amend his conduct and revert to the Guidance of God.<<
If person refuses to come back to Islam, he or she would be killed, in other words nobody is allowed to leave Islam alive.
This is same theory that all the gangs and cults operate on, they never let their followers leave. If somebody ever dares to leave their fold, the gang or cult leaders make sure the person is killed.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited November 13, 1999).]
Rani: "If person refuses to come back to Islam, he or she would be killed, in other words nobody is allowed to leave Islam alive."
This is not what I'm saying...I think maybe you misunderstood. I'm arguing the opposite, that person can leave the folds of Islam, its their choice, they will be judged by Allah, and they have the choice to return to Islam - a choice they must make on their own, without 'compulsion'.
I think you should read the post over again...
Achtung
Looks like too much deep trouble are we guys in...Islam is only religion choosen by allah to be only RIGHT religion on the planet and all others should follow islam or else fight with islam and get killed or pay jizzya...thats all and when a muslim is join or steps out of islam he is already automatically thrown into that category to be killed or to pay jizzya....
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
Achtung…>>This is a long post…I apoligize for that, its littered with Qur’anic verses.<<
Littered? or adorned!!!
Achtung Sahib, while Islam promotes brotherhood, love, affection, kindness and sympathy in the hearts of human beings, it also calls for drastic measures to deal with abomiable crimes, such as apostasy. Take a glance at Jewish and Christian literature. They also recommend death for blasphemy and apostasy. I have qouted you many verses from Qura~n suggesting that Allah would never accept any religion, other than Islam. So if after accepting this right course, on one free will, I might add, one deviates from it, he/she must be punished. And there is no record of any companion having opposed the verdict of death, nor is there any record of Muslims scholars having attempted to change this verdict…then we need not pay any attention to the views of those Muslims who are ignorant or or apologetic about Islam.
Such thinking, in my humble opinion is imported into Islam by our non-Muslim masters. I suggest you please go to this site and read and see where you disagree with the scholars and why??
Achtung…>>This is a long post…I apoligize for that, its littered with Qur’anic verses.<<
Littered? or adorned!!!
But Achtung Sahib, while Islam promotes brotherhood, love, affection, kindness and sympathy in the hearts of human beings, it also calls for drastic measures to deal with abomiable crimes, such as apostasy. Take a glance at Jewish and Christian literature. They also recommend death for blasphemy and apostasy. I have qouted you many verses from Qura~n suggesting that Allah would never accept any religion, other than Islam. So if after accepting this right course, on one free will, I might add, one deviates from it, he/she must be punished. And there is no record of any companion having opposed the verdict of death, nor is there any record of Muslims scholars having attempted to change this verdict…then we need not pay any attention to the views of those Muslims who are ignorant or or apologetic about Islam.
Such thinking, in my humble opinion is imported into Islam by our non-Muslim masters. I suggest you please go to this site and read and see where you disagree with the scholars and why??
sorry about the double posting. I have been trying to delete it but my computer knowledge is far less than desired.
Below is an email a friend sent me...This email uses both the Qur'an and Hadith to demonstrate CLEARLY that there is no punishment for apostacy in the case of one leaving Islam and entering another faith or no faith at all. Please read...
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Dear ACHTUNG
HERE IS MY SUMMARY OF ISLAMIC RULING ON APOSTASY, according to the Qur`aan, Sunnah, and the Fiqh:
APOSTASY and CONVERSION in ISLAMIC TEACHINGS
Apostasy (as changing one's religion as a faith) is mentioned in the Qur'an in thirteen verses contained in different chapters, but ** in none of these verses can one find any mention of punishment to be carried out
in this world. On the contrary, all that these verses contain is the assurance that the apostate will be punished in the Hereafter ** . (For example, II: 217; III: 90-91; and V: 54, also see the Encyclopedia of Islam: 'In the Qur'an, the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only.' v.III-p.736 under 'murtadd'.) ** The Qur'anic principle is 'No compulsion in Religion' (II: 256), and is very clear ** .
Muslim jurists, when they referred to 'apostasy' as a crime, refer to one particular Prophetic Saying in which Muhammad (pbuH) says: * "The life of a Muslim can be taken in the cases of one who has killed a human being (qatala nafsan), and of one who forsakes his religion and separates himself from community (al-murtaddu `an dinihi al-mufariqu lil-jamaa'a)" Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawood) * .
On the basis of this hadith and the later version which describes an apostate as * "a man who went out from the community to fight against God and His Prophet, and should then be put to death or imprisoned" * (Al-Sunan, vol. IV, p.IV -the commentaries on Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawood) Muslim jurists, even Ibn Taymiyyah who is known as a strict scholar, concluded that ** the 'apostasy' which the Prophetic statement refers has nothing to do with the case of simple 'conversion from Islam to any other religion' ** . It is an ** 'apostasy which is accompanied by active public attack, insult, conspiracy and fighting against
Islam and Muslims' ** .
This is why Islam knows of no death penalty for apostasy in the sense of simply changing one's faith unless the apostate joins forces with those who have active hostility and enemity towards Muslims. One of the evidences of this juristic rule by Muslim scholars is that ** the four traditional schools of law which are still operative in Sunni Islam are unanimous in applying the above rule to male apostates only because in their view, it is the male apostate who is in position to fight against Islam, not simply by changing his faith ** . Nevertheless the accused has to be tried by an Islamic court.
Another important point to bear in mind is that ** the Prophet himself never had an apostate put to death ** , despite the fact that there were some cases in which people apostatized after converting to Islam, but the Prophet never ordered them to be punished. (Shawkani, Nayl-al-Awtar, vol.: VII, 192; also see, Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari; and Nawawi's commentary on the text of Muslim, vol. IX, p. 391) On the contrary, Bukhari and Muslim (the most authentic Hadith sources) related that"
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" an Arab came to the Prophet and accepted Islam; then fever overtook him while he was still at Madina, so he came to the Prophet and said, 'Give me back my pledge,' but the Prophet refused; then he came the next day and said to the Prophet 'Give me back my pledge', and the Prophet refused. The man afterwards left Madina unharmed" *
The report makes it very clear that this was a clear case of apostasy in which there was no punishment. It is clear from the words of the report that the Bedouin was seeking to return to his old religion, or at least to leave Islam, but in spite of this he went away unharmed. (Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari; also Nawawi's commentary on the text of Muslim, vol. IX, p. 391, where he ** quotes Qadi 'Iyad, a well-known jurist, as saying that this Bedouin was definitely an apostate,
and he was not punished. ** )
Another case of apostasy is reported in which the apostates were a group of ** Jews who had accepted Islam and then returned to their original religion ** ; the case is mentioned in the Qur'an III: 72-73. These Jews would pretend that they had accepted Islam in the first part of the day and show that they did not believe it at the end of the day. This was done, according to the Qur'an, in order to undermine the confidence of newly-converted Muslims. At that time the Prophet Muhammad was the ruler of Madina. Consequently, one cannot imagine how such people could have done this under a government which punishes apostasy with the death penalty, while they were not, in fact, punished in any way.
** To put it simply, the concept of 'apostasy' in Islamic law does not mean 'simply change of religion' and conversion but is like 'treason' which is accepted as a crime and punished by the modern legal systems as well. Therefore, the statement of 'Islamic law prescribes the death penalty for anyone who converts from Islam to another faith' is simply not an accurate one because, as explained in the above, 'apostasy' does not mean simply conversion. **
All the best
With salaam and prayers
Thanks for reading...
I think thats the most informative and decisive answer I've ever recieved on this question. It is very convincing (at least to me).
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited November 14, 1999).]
Dear Achtung Sahib!
All along you have been insisting upon your stand that
qoute:
1-There is no law in the Qur'an for apostacy
2-There is no penalty given here for apostacy
3-Apostacy indeed is a serious sin (perhaps one of the most serious), but despite this, punishment for it seems to be reserved to Allah in the next life.
4-First off there is a difference between treason and apostacy.
[while your Chechan friends does believes that apostasy and treason are one and the same thing]
unqoute
and then you recieve the email from you friend. You say
qoute
Below is an email a friend sent me...This email uses both the Qur'an and Hadith to demonstrate CLEARLY that there is no punishment for apostacy in the case of one leaving Islam and entering another faith or no faith at all.
unqoute
But you froget that your friend does not assume that simple convertion is apostasy. He has clearly separated the two issues by naming both as differently!!
Your Chechen friend concludes:
To put it simply, the concept of 'apostasy' in Islamic law does not mean 'simply change of religion' and conversion but is like 'treason' which is accepted as a crime and punished by the modern legal systems as well. Therefore, the statement of 'Islamic law prescribes the death penalty for anyone who converts from Islam to another faith' is simply not an accurate one because, as explained in the above, 'apostasy' does not mean simply conversion.
unqoute
I 100% support your friend's point of view. This is the view of every scholar. and there are no two ways about it.
Next time you must not mix up the issues. simple convertion to another religion and apostasy are two different things!!!
:)
You are the one confusing the two issues. You have in your writings, combined them into one. Its clear from your posts that you believe that apostacy and treason are one in the same. Or at least this is how it appears to me. Sorry if I misunderstood.
You write: "I 100% support your friend's point of view. This is the view of every scholar. and there are no two ways about it."
I am totally confused. Apostate is someone who once a believer, decides to leave the folds of Islam. Such a person can be a convert to another religion. There is no penalty in Islam for such a person, unless they are a 'threat' to Islam - in which case the penalty is more so for the 'threat' of treason, than for the conversion. A simple conversion, without any perceived threat, is not reason enough for any punishment - this is clear from our discussion to this point. Yet you have been arguing that death is the punishment for apostasy period, because apostasy and treason are one in the same. Which they obviously aren't.
Here is Mini-Me's question: "Why is that when a muslim ** converts ** to another religion is ordered to be killed while its not the case when converting from any other religion?"
Here is your answer: "when one ** reverts ** from Islam, it is called treason to Umma. No one compells you to accepts Islam on gun point. You are free to choose, as Achtung qouted from Qura~n (2:256) "No compulsion". But once you accept it you become part of Umma and to deviate from the Umma has a tag. It is very fair, as far as I think."
What it seems like you are saying is that it is 'fair' to kill people who convert out of Islam. In this case you do not "100% support" my friends point of view. You 100% do not support his view.
There is a difference between what my Chechan friend is saying and what you are saying.
You say: "The punishment [of death] applies to those who knowingly revert from Islam [in other words convert to another religion]... I am not the first one to advocate such punishment. All Islamic scholars have concluded this. You may not like or it is barbaric, sure I agree that it is barbaric. Infact all Islamic punishments are barbaric and cruel. But the saftey lies in stern punishments."
There is no punishment for apostasy for converts as you state. There is no punishment for apostasy unless its accompanied with treason - this is the accepted position of scholars as demonstrated by my Chechan friend.
You write: "Let us not widen the discussion and please stay within the apostasy and its punishment in Islam. Qoute any scholar, who has rendered any judgement about it, favoring your pov. You personaly find it abhoring, I dont care and I am no one to pass judgement on your stance. And I request the same from you. Let us behave like grown ups."
I've now provided both Qur'anic evidence and hadith...
You wrote: "So if after accepting this right course, on one free will, I might add, one deviates from it, he/she must be punished...we need not pay any attention to the views of those Muslims who are ignorant or or apologetic about Islam."
Muslims like the Prophet Muhammad, who did not in his lifetime punish anyone for apostacy? Surely he is not among those who you term 'ignorant'.
Achtung ;)
Achtung Sahib!
This is how I have understood apostasy and this is what I have been communicating with you. I said
"You must understand that apostasy is abandoning or forsaking Islam, repudiating any of Islam's basic tenets, rebelling against Allah or His Prophet, pbuh, or beleiving in any imposter after Prophet Mohammad, pbuh."
and this is what your learned Chechen friend concludes:
"To put it simply, the concept of 'apostasy' in Islamic law does not mean 'simply change of religion' and conversion but is like 'treason' which is accepted as a crime and punished by the modern legal systems as well. Therefore, the statement of 'Islamic law prescribes the death penalty for anyone who converts from Islam to another faith' is simply not an accurate one because, as explained in the above, 'apostasy' does not mean simply conversion."
Simple change of religion is not apostasy. We're discussing apostasy and its punishment in Islam. I had also qouted you almost the same hadiths, but you wanted more reference. But now all of sudden, you seems to be happy with they are provided by your friend. If you care to research those books of ahadith yourself, your point of view will be different too. Why not you send my entire conversation to your friend and let him comment on my misunderstandings, if there are any!! I like to be corrected.
Afterall we learn from another.
:)
"This is why Islam knows of no death penalty for apostasy in the sense of simply changing one's faith unless the apostate ** joins forces with those who have active hostility and enemity towards Muslims. ** "
So you agree with the above statement? In this case we are in agreement. I wasn't aware that you felt this way. The original question ** was ** about people who converted out of Islam and weather apostacy laws applied to them. The answer is they don't, unless these people pose a real percieved threat to Islam and Muslim peoples. If this is what you to believe, than yes we are in agreement. I think that most people would agree with this, it makes sense.
The manner in which you articulated your argument earlier, did not (at least to me), make this point clear. If it did, it would have been easier for me to understand where you were coming from. I think others may have been confused also, it seemed almost as though you were advocating the death penalty for Muslims who leave the faith (without waging any 'real' attack on Islam). Just a misunderstanding I guess, I apoligize.
Achtung ;)
First of all I would like to thank all of you, secondally the issue was clearing up in the end and suddunly it was again mixed up with treason. But now its is clear. My question is answered.
I am just qouting what I thing is the answer from Mr. Achtung
Qoute
"This is why Islam knows of no death penalty for apostasy in the sense of simply changing one's faith".
Unqoute
I am affraid that I am not in complete agreement with your statement. The reason is that what will happen to Islam if people start converting to other religions (without showing any hostility to Islam, its creed, its Prophet and so on....)on herd instinct!!
I am not advocating that such people should be put to death. I not knowledgable enough to dispense any opinion on this. It is for scholars to deliberate and issue some kind of fatwa, if one is not already in place.
I am happy however, that Mini-Me query is answered to his/her satisfaction. I will keep on looking into this and send some emails around, and would be glad to update you if I hear anything.
It was pleasure having discussed it with you and I seek forgiveness from Allah if I had said something which I was not knowledgeable to do and I offer my appologies to you if I had been impolite or improper to you or to any other member on this thread.
Wasalam!