Thanks for the explanation. I don’t mind reading original thought.
About the above two quotes:
The Bible teach that one can sin without knowing one is sinning. Moses clearly taught that one can unknowingly sin. Theft is sin whether it is a cultural thing in a group of people or not. Same for murder, etc. If I mislead someone to steal (while s/he does not know theft is wrong), I helped that person to sin.
Surely one can’t continue sinning knowingly and expect forgiveness each time one ask God for it? If this is the case, one can live sinning all the time as long as you (a) immediately thereafter ask forgiveness, and (b) ask forgiveness just before dieing?
If both as combination is perfect then surely if one is taken away, the remainder is imperfect? I always thought the Quran on it’s own is perfect without the Hadeez.
The same was with Hz. Ibraheem (Abraham) (PBUH), who people say lied when he said that perhaps the big statues did it…
Same happened when Hz. Adam :as: ‘sinned’…
Same happened when the Holy Prophet :saw: ignored the blind man…
In Islam, mistakes and ‘sins’ (as we perceive them) by the Prophets are interwoven in divine destiny…In some cases it was deliberately manifested…Like Adam :as:…
I mean, where would we be hadn’t Adam :as: sinned…
And if it is destiny it is not sin? If Adam did not sin, we would still be in Paradise with no need for Jesus or Muhammad! (No disrepect meant with last statement)
Any person who does bad deeds deliberately with the intention that every time he will ask for forgiveness he/she will be forgiven is wrong. What is required is sincerely trying to stop the bad deed and expect to be forgiven.
Its just to show how merciful God Almighty is and is awaiting for someone to sincerely repent.
A social crime like theft is considered sin just as lying, cheating etc. etc.
Besides obviously wrong deeds, and those which are told in religeous books or by prophets etc. there are no major sins which can be commited “unknowingly” .
The “unknowingly” only works for thos who are
1-mentally retarded or similar.
2- person before puberty.
Yes Quran is perfect in its message. Sorry I was not clear enough in my statement about Quran and Hadees combination.
OK let me try… Quraan itself is perfect in its message and does not require its combination with hadees to be perfect. We keep mixing perfect and completeness with being accurate.
A hadees on the other hand is not always accurate. IF we have a hadees and we say that Quraan also says same thing then what we have is perfect scenario.
But its not the other way around Quran does not require Hadees to be accurate or perfect.
If we some hadees quoted which is in direct contradiction with Quraan (I have no example of it in my knowledge) then Quraan will be considered authentic.
Hope I was somewhat more clear this time.
I have great respects for ALL prophets and saints etc. and cannot comment on if or what sin they did or did not commit. I think the way I look it, I have to answer God myself and others will do same without my knowledge of their deeds.
I still think human being has both abilities and its personal struggle with help of God almighty only that a person gets to higher level. No one in between required.
Once the message has been delivered then the job of prophet is done.
Thanks for answering my question on newborn babies. With all due respect, it is very hard to accept. I will keep trying to ponder and search on it though.
I have given my thoughts and I still could be wrong since God knows the best.
Well as we know that human has free-will that is why he commits sins. So now the question arise of fate that fate is written By God and it is already written that a person will go to paradise or hell. So where is free-will .So why on earth are we here ???. Well The answer is very clear and simple yes the fate of the person is already written but it is written in the from like if this man will do this this is going to be the result. If the man does the opposite this will happen.
. So a person exercise free-will at certain time.
Like
if adam(A.S) dosent eat that fruit he will live in the heavens
and if he ate it then he would be sent to this world.
God is the creator and something went wrong with His creation through sin brought on by the disobeyance of Adam the first human being. God could've started over but decided to give His creation a second chance. According to Christianity, the second chance is by accepting Jesus and his sacrifice/death for humankind. Everyone that wants this cleansing second chance can partake of it freely.
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So how come someone born in sin attains Sainthood? And surely the sainthood is not conferred by ‘perfect people’, or is it?
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EVERYONE that accepts Jesus as Lord are called saints according to the Bible. Sainthood does not mean "sinless". The Roman Catholic church decrees of Sainthood to only some people mean nothing and has no basis in Scripture. I normally don't bash Christian denominations while on Gupshup, but facts are facts.
Who says that Muslims dont accept Hazrat Esa (A.S) (Jesus in christianity). We accept him but as a messenger of God. And we Muslims have a strong belief that he was not dead but was ascended to heavens by GOD and he surely will descend in the last days near Qayamat(Near judgement Day) and pure the world with his 40 years of stay.
Another question linked to all this discussion. How are the people before Jesus Christ supposed to be forgiven for their sins since Jesus Christ did not even exist in their time and who was their saviour then?
Firstly, I welcome you to Gupshup and hope you enjoy posting here.
Some Christian statements/views first:
Jesus Christ existed before creation - John.1v1-3
All men can/could be saved because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ no matter when the sacrifice took place - Tit.2v11
God, when creating mankind, blew a part of His Spirit into man ensuring a yearning for Him by all
The Holy Spirit existed all through mankind’s existence as part of God
The Holy Spirit can influence any man anywhere to turn to God Almighty since it is everywhere on earth
Each person will be held accountable for such knowledge of the truth as was accessible to them. Jews will be judged by the written Law they try to keep and their faith in the Messiah. Gentiles (non-Jews) will be judged according to the law of their conscience, reaction to the voice of the Holy Spirit in their lives and faith in the Almighty God. Christians will be saved through their faith in Jesus as Saviour.
Some Christian scholars teach that since Jesus’ time, only those with faith in him will be saved.
Does this mean that Christians believe that Jesus (AS) of Nazareth, born to a woman was more than just a man but lesser than God Who created him?
yes, I believe the same thing, but I also believe that all mankind can be saved whenever any man offers sacrifice for truth and in the way of God Almighty.
Quran agrees that God did breath into man His spirit. We can adopt truth, kindness and all other goodness which in its abslutness belongs only to Allah, Alhamdulillah.
Chapter : 15 (Al-Hijr)
[15:29] And remember when thy Lord said to the angels, I am about to create man of dry wringing clay, of black mud wrought into shape:
[15:30] So when I fashioned him in perfection and have breath into him of My spirit, fall ye down in submission to him.’
[15:31] So the angels submitted, all of them together.
[15:32] But Iblis did not; he refused to be among those who submit.
Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
If you interprate Holy Spirit to be goodness in men of all times and colors, then yes, goodness does exist in every man, and if it is nurtured it does turn a man towards his Lord one day.
Jews will be saved if they believe in, and adhere to the teachings revealed to Moses (AS) and do good, Christions will be saved if they believe in, and adhere to the teachings revealed to Jesus (AS) and do good, Muslims will be saved if they believe in, and adhere to the teachings revealed to Muhammad (SA) and do good. No soul shell be wronged, all men are created equal.
And guard yourselves against the day when no soul shall serve as a substitute for another soul at all, nor shall any ransom be accepted from it, nor any intercession avail it, nor shall it be helped.
How will it be with them when We will gather them together on the Day about which there is no doubt; and when every soul shall be paid in full what it has earned, and they shall not be wronged?
Christians believe that Jesus Christ , as Son of God, is also part of God as revealed in the Tri-une God. He was incarnated as a man by being born to a woman and lived as man till his death in order to facilitate saving grace for all humankind.
Did God Almighty "create" Jesus? If God took a part of himself and made it into something more acceptable to humankind in order to fulfill a certain goal, it still remains a part of God and can be called "God". If a "finger" of God write on stone tablets, it is still be referred to that God wrote on the tablets.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, **and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....The Word became flesh* and lived for a while among us....No-one has seen God, but God the only Son...* - John1v1,2,14,18
...Christ Jesus: Who, **being in very nature God, did not consider **equality with God* something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.* - Phil.2v5-8
The Lord gave me two stone tablets **inscribed by the finger of God. - Deut.9v10
There is a verse in Quran which means “God created man in his image”, may Allah forgive for paraphrasing here since I do not have the reference handy right now. Now does this mean that Man is part of God, certainly not then how do you interpret this. God is infinite in his attributes, he can hear, he can see, he can speak etc. Man also has these attributes becaue he can hear, see and speak but his capabilities are limited compared to the infinite capabilitie of God. So we are created in his image but we are not part of him. This is where I say Christianity went wrong in interpreting the likeness of the miracles God provided to Jesus to him being Son of God himself. Jesus could heal the lepers, could he do it to all the lepers at once, no he couldn’t because God only gave a certain extent of that power through his miracles. He could raise the dead, could he raise all the dead in the world, no he couldn’t. Who can, God can. Does that limited ability provided by God to Jesus make him God, no it doesn’t. Following in line with Christian interpretations we can all do things that God has in a limited fashion, should we all start thinking that we are God, heck no.