[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
no source?
[/QUOTE]
The book is called Kanzul Ummal.. Its a famous book of Hadith.
Mister Destino....You are deviating...from the Topic..I have asked you specific questions about the references to the Ahadith and Verses....I am not stopping you from doing anything...It seems like you r posting just for the sake of argument.....please come back with a more clear answer, if you have one....???
Mr. Perplexing i think two of the three references you had quoted have been replied.. and the above discussion (apart from mullahs being pigs etc) was a continuation of that..(errors!)
For the following excript:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Mr. Fateh sahib. Could you please answer "Perplexing's" questions...
"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief. It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 498-499; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 64)
.......................
The above mentioned excripts were found in the writings of Mirza Sahib can you please identify the location of the veses and Hadith for me....???
[/QUOTE]
Worship of Jesus!
018.004
YUSUFALI: Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":
018.005
YUSUFALI: No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!
The punishment!
005.115
YUSUFALI: Allah said: "I will send it down unto you:*But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples." *
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
So how did God punish the people who did such things in Past:
002.059
YUSUFALI: But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a ** plague from heaven ** , for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.
No Destino they were not answered......read my post again!!!!!
[quote]
First of all your Messiah is advising you to quote Bukhari as he finds it more authentic.....and then this Hadith that you have provided was quoted by Mohiyyodin Ibn`e Arabi for Mahdi Jaunpuri ( he was a another claiment of Mehdiyat along with Mohammad Bin Ismail, Mahdi Sudani...and some others). The following passage will make it a bit clearer that this was not for Mirza sahib.....
The respected personality of Sunnis and the father of Sufism, Sheikh Mohiuddin Arabi writes in his book, Al-Futoohat-el-Makkia,:- "You should know that the reappearance of Mahdi is imminent. But he will not, appear till the world would be completely filled with injustice and oppression. After that he shall come and fill the earth with justice and peace... He is from the progeny of the Messenger of Allah (S.A.) and Janabe Zahra (SA). His respected great grandfather is Husain ibn Ah and his father is Imam Hasan al-Askari.
[/quote]
Secondly.........The following Question has Hadith and the Mention of the HOLY QURAN...( I don't understand, why I have to re-state this over and over again)......
*"Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol.17, P. 404; Arbaine, No. 3, P. 25)
*
Thirdly.........The Verses Do not say anything about the the PLAGUE coming becasue Jesus was worshipped...
[quote]
The punishment!
005.115
YUSUFALI: Allah said: "I will send it down unto you:But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
So how did God punish the people who did such things in Past:
002.059
YUSUFALI: But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven , for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.
[/quote]
For your convenience I will post the Question again....
*"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief. It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 498-499; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 64)
*
Read carefully.....Mirza Sahib is saying......"God, in the Holy Quran, has declared worshipping Jesus a great act of mischief". Not calling him his SON...and no they don't mean the same thing. This is Quran not some story book that you add your own words to it. Then he (Mirza Sahib) says "It is also foretold that the plague and earth-quakes, etc. will occur when worshipping of Jesus becomes rampant. God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus.". There was no mention of earthquakes in those Ayahs, they did not mention anything coming on the sky and they did not say this was because of Jesus. Just to be on the safe side this is Ayah you are relating to Jesus.....
[quote]
YUSUFALI: Allah said: "I will send it down unto you:But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
[/quote]
Allah in the Quran has talked about earthquakes in the time of Moses.....
7: 156. And Moses chose of his people seventy men for Our appointment. But when the **earthquake* overtook them, he said, `My Lord , if Thou hadst pleased, Thou couldst have destroyed them before this, and me too. Wilt Thou destroy us for that which the foolish among us have done ? This is nothing but a trial from Thee. Thou causest to perish thereby whom Thou pleasest and Thou guidest whom Thou pleasest. Thou art our Protector; forgive us then and have mercy upon us and Thou art the Best of those who forgive;
*
Moses came way before Jesus did (1437 B.C) and so did the earthquake....
(go to the Ahmadi website www.alislam.org and type earthquake in the quran search).
I would request you to read the Questions carefully to save every one time. thank you..........
:)
so this ahmadi guy already knew he wud be killed by muslims....
very intelligent of him....
i always thought he had no brain....
Mr. Perplexing,
I am not sure what you are trying to imply here. Calling jesus the son of God is the same thing as worshiping him. What else can you deduce from the verses where Allah warns christian for making such a gross error. Isn’t it Shirk? Isn’t shirk the biggest sin? I am sure you are aware of the ahadith where prophet :saw: himself called shrik a great sin, which is not forgivable.
And including a Prophet of God into such a thing would be even more serious sin, as Prophets are sent for an exactly opposite purpose..
So according ot you all the scholarly commentaries ever made on Quran are wrong and against Islam. If you think Promised Massiah (as) was wrong, you can discuss your points with us and prove us wrong. Just don’t try to tell me that someone has put his own words in Quran.. It is a wrong assumption.. a mistake on your part.
This is the Ayat talking about a “penalty such as God has not inflicted on anyone among ALL THE PEOPLES”
005.115
YUSUFALI: Allah said: “I will send it down unto you:But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”
And this is one relating to jesus and his people. Read the next verse and see what would be the REASON for such a penalty:
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
So earthquakes are reserved for Moses and his people. What about the earthquakes in recent times the likes of which have never been seen before in the histroy of mankind?
And for your information, divine punishment comes in many forms and shapes.. all kinds of natural disasters, diseases etc.
When God says that he will inflict a punishment the likes of which no one has seen, that means that He will put them through all forms of punsihments with more intensity or even more..
and Promised Massiah (as) said
“God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus”
That includes plagues and earthquakes and all such kinds of disasters.
Can you provide me the proper reference to above statement please. As i can see, this is a shia belief, and Ibne Arabi was not one.
What I am trying to imply is that the words were “Worshipping Jesus” and thats not in that verse,you might wana stretch it and deduce that from it, but thats not what the verse said. Great care is taken when quoting a Hadith not a single AIRAB is changed and you want to tell me that he (Mirza Sahib) said the same thing!!!
Yes I am aware of what SIN is. The questuion is are you aware of what it is…??? Mirza Sahib used the word FITNA (Mischief, Sedition, Mutiny, Quarrel, Revolt). Go to http://www.ebazm.com/dictionary.htm and see what it means for yourself.
Mr. Destino I would ask you to be careful when quoting these Ayahs to your own benifit, for the consequences are enormous…this particular Ayah was revealed in the second Surah Baqarah which is about the Bani Israel…read the verse before it and the one after it…it talks about the Manna and Salwa and the town. in other WORDS its not about JESUS!!!
I would request you not to put words in my mouth. Why is it that these commentaries/translations have not translated the verse you have provided to mean WORSHIPPING JESUS. If they mean the same they could have said that right?.. Even the Ahmadi translation does not do that…in the commentary it says that the Penalty might have been WOrld WAR 1 and 2 but then it goes on saying Wallah Alam what it is…Where as Mirza Sahib spcifically states “EARTHQUAKES and WORSHIPPING JESUS”…do u know why…??? Because this is Quran not some ones notebook. Read on the same page Roohani Khazain vol.22 p 498-499. Mirza Sahib is goin in detail about the Dajjal and the word used for it “KHUROOJ”. He is spending this much time on something so little don’t you think he would have said this is the verse (the one provided by you) and it also means “WORSHIPPING OF JESUS” in some foot note or something, thats his style of writting…
Let me ask you something when your told there is a test on the first 2 chapters of the book, by your teacher.Does he mean the first two chapters after the chapter 17 or 18 or does it mean (Chapter 1 and 2).
Again you are doing the same thing…point out where have I said that the earthquakes are for Moses’s Ummah only…??? What I stated was according to the Ayah provided by you…
The Penalty would have been of the nature that has never been seen…not earthquakes…They have been there at the time of Moses…
Mirzsa Sahib uses the word earthquake, saying that was in the Quran…which its not in that Ayah…and if you really want me to believe that the earthquake that came at the time of Moses was 7.9 on the rector scale and the earthquake Mirza Sahib is talking about would be 7.8 on the rector scale…and that classifies as something different, then I don’t have anything further to say about this topic to you.
Mirza Sahib uses the word TASREEH which means Wazih, Evident, when saying this sentence…that means when I should read the referred to Ayah I should have no problem finding out the part where it states the fact about Sky. But I can’t!!!
I have given you the name of the Book…but I have something else as well…I don’t know if you ever read the article posted by Saif on the thread “From Ahmadiyat to Islam” there is this very interesting part about this book in that article…allow me to quote…
Tell me if that Hadith was Provided for Mirza Sahib. If it was, then how come he is claiming to be a Prophet…???
**P.S. Apart from All this You still have’nt given me an Ayah for this…
*“Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever.”
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol.17, P. 404; Arbaine, No. 3, P. 25)
Mr. Perplexing,
in your last post you have raised few points:
- [QUOTE] What I am trying to imply is that the words were "Worshipping Jesus" and thats not in that verse,you might wana stretch it and deduce that from it, but thats not what the verse said. Great care is taken when quoting a Hadith not a single AIRAB is changed and you want to tell me that he (Mirza Sahib) said the same thing!!! [/QUOTE]
Famous commentary on Quran by Abdullah Yousuf Ali:
*58. And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good." *
- This probably refers to Sh!ttim. It was the "town of acacias," just east of the Jordan, where the Israelites were guilty of debauchery and the worship of and sacrifice to false gods (Num. xxv. 1-2, also 8-9); a terrible punishment ensued, including the plague of which 24,000 died. The word which the transgressors changed may have been a pass-word. In the Arabic text it is "Hittatun" which implies humility and a prayer of foregiveness, a fitting emblem to distinguish them from their enemies. From this particular incident a more general lesson may be drawn; in the hour of triumph we are to behave humbly as in God's sight, and our conduct should be exemplary according to God's word; otherwise our arrogance will draw its own punishment.
Can you please give me the name of the town, or the narrative used in the commentary in the mentioned verse.. What Mr. Yousuf Ali did, like all other commentators of Quran was to deduce from the verse the real meanings. Your logic to give you the exact phrase "worship of Jesus" in the verse is very strange indeed. What do you think christians are doing today?? Are they not worshiping Jesus??Did God not know the real christian beliefs??
What do you understand from this verse?
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
2.
[QUOTE]
this particular Ayah was revealed in the second Surah Baqarah which is about the Bani Israel...read the verse before it and the one after it...
[/QUOTE]
The punishment from God can come in any form and shape that he desires. That does not mean if people of Moses were given a particular punishment, then that punishment will not be given to other people. This is what Quran tells us. Read Sura Al-Qamar, chapter 54. This sura tells us different punishments for Aad. Thumood and Lut's people. Then there is Sura Dukhan, chapter 44. It tells us of a Prophecy about the punishment of "smoke", which promised Massiah has also mentioned in context of the next great calamaty which will be inflicted on Mankind for not believing in One God.
[QUOTE]
Where as Mirza Sahib spcifically states "EARTHQUAKES and WORSHIPPING JESUS".....do u know why...???
[/QUOTE]
This is what PRomised Massiah (as) said
[QUOTE]
God has clarified that in the last era, all the horrible incidents on the sky and earth will appear because worshipping of Jesus"
[/QUOTE]
And earthquakes are definitely one of them.
3.
[QUOTE]
Mirzsa Sahib uses the word earthquake, saying that was in the Quran....which its not in that Ayah.......and if you really want me to believe that the earthquake that came at the time of Moses was 7.9 on the rector scale and the earthquake Mirza Sahib is talking about would be 7.8 on the rector scale....and that classifies as something different, then I don't have anything further to say about this topic to you.
[/QUOTE]
Sura Zilzaal tells us of those earthquakes in the last days. You believe that it will be on the "judgement day", but if you read carefully it talks about the last era before the day of judgment.
There are Ahadith in Bukhari to confirm this;
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 146:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Hour (Last Day) will not be established until (religious) knowledge will be taken away (by the death of religious learned men), earthquakes will be very frequent, time will pass quickly, afflictions will appear, murders will increase and money will overflow amongst you."
[QUOTE]
Read on the same page Roohani Khazain vol.22 p 498-499. Mirza Sahib is goin in detail about the Dajjal and the word used for it "KHUROOJ". He is spending this much time on something so little don't you think he would have said this is the verse (the one provided by you) and it also means "WORSHIPPING OF JESUS" in some foot note or something, thats his style of writting........
[/QUOTE]
As i have clarified before, that God has promised punishment for making Jesus a diety.. and you and i are witnesses that this is the time when christians are the biggest religion in the world.. every christian worships Jesus and its time they get the warnings from Allah. That is a fact which has been made crystal clear in Quran. If you have problems with "style of writings" no one else is to be blamed here.
- "He says that what would remain for Muslims after Muhammad are speculators (Mujtahids) who would strive in their own different ways to explain the Shariah to the people according to their understanding of it. Such Mujtahids, he says, will NOT be called Prophets (Ibn Arabi, al-Futuhat al-Makkiyyah, Vol. II, pp. 254 and 255). This is certainly known to the Pakistani Ahmadi missionaries, but they hide it from their followers deliberately in order to entrench their own false idea on Prophethood…"
[QUOTE]
Tell me if that Hadith was Provided for Mirza Sahib. If it was, then how come he is claiming to be a Prophet...???
[/QUOTE]
I am aware of this Hadith. But there is no doubt in my mind that Bukhari and Muslim refer to Jesus of Muslim Ummah as "Apostle of Allah". Those are the words of Hadith too.
5.
[QUOTE]
P.S. Apart from All this You still have'nt given me an Ayah for this....
"Naturally, the prophecies of the Holy Quran and Hadith, in which it was revealed that the Promised Messiah will be prosecuted by the Muslim scholars, must come to pass. They will declare him an unbeliever."
[/QUOTE]
036.030
YUSUFALI: Ah! Alas for (My) Servants! There comes not a messenger to them but they mock him!
That happens with every messenger..
and i think a hadith has been provided in previous posts.
Wassalam
^
if tomorrow i claim prophethood and present the same verse to u???
is that evidence enuff to accept me a prophet???
surely anyone who claims prophethood will be mocked, after Muhammad :saw: has clearly said that he wont be succeeded by any prophet or messenger…
[QUOTE]
Muhammad has clearly said that he wont be succeeded by any prophet or messenger....
[/QUOTE]
If so then why Muslim are waiting for Jesus (as) to come back. If there is no prophet what so ever after Holy Prophet (saw). THen naozubillah you are calling the Holy Prophet (saw) a lier. On one hand Holy Prophet (saw) is saying "La Nabiya Badi" there is no prophet after me. On the other hand there is this hadith that. Isa (as) prophet of Allah wil decend and Prophet of Allah will do this. Prophet of ALlah will do that. This hadith is in Muslim.
Please stright your belief first before accusing anyone else.
Yes if you say since there is no more prophet Holy Prophet (saw). Then why Jesus has to decend again. Ponder over this. If you find an answer to this. then let me know
^
beta jee tumhein khud baat ki samajh na lagay to poocch liya karo, rona shuroo nahin kar diya karo....
bring to me one muslims who believes Jesus(as) will come back as a messenger of Allah....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
if tomorrow i claim prophethood and present the same verse to u????
is that evidence enuff to accept me a prophet????
surely anyone who claims prophethood will be mocked, after
[/QUOTE]
rejection and mockery by the clergy of the time is just one of the signs.. A claimant of prophethood has to meet many conditions set by Quran and Hadith to be true.. which are being discussed here...
^
so what others did mirza prove???
was dying in the toilet a sign too??? 
[QUOTE]
bring to me one muslims who believes Jesus(as) will come back as a messenger of Allah....
[/QUOTE]
Inna lillah`e wa inna elhe rajoon.
I just told you its in the Hadith Shaih Hadith MUSLIM. That he will be a messenger of Allah. Now you are saying bring any muslim who believe that. I think try to use your brain a bit it might help you. Go ask any Mullah or Aaaliim of yours. He will say exactly what im saying.
^
i never heard any such hadith which says he will come back as a mesenger....
tum ahmedis ne khud banaa lee ho to alag baat hai....
The first and the Greatest Muslim:saw: said
Sahih Muslim:
Book 041, Number 7015: (you can find the whole Hadith at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/041.smt.html#041.7015)
The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Allah’s Apostle, Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah’s Apostle, Jesus , and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. , and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah’s Apostle, Jesus , and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of bactrin camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will.
Book 030, Number 5836:
Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one is that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah’s Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).
^
and where in these does it say he will come back as a messenger????
[QUOTE]
never heard any such hadith which says he will come back as a mesenger....
[/QUOTE]
The above reply by destino is enough to proove your flasehood.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
^
and where in these does it say he will come back as a messenger????
[/QUOTE]
Allah's apostle means Rusoolullah in arabic.. and he will recieve revelation..
the same hadith narrates:
"Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it."
Did you read the ORIGINAL page about his death or read only Mullahs written books against us?
If you read the ORIGINAL page, (which I doubt) then there are only 2 things now, either you didnt understand the page or you are lieing cuz of the hate against us!!