May I ask why him specifically?? After all, they all are kinda the same. But if you beg to differ about their shared heritage then maybe you can refer to what I stated above to sholly to keep your heart content.
ahmadjee, you sound so elequent in your wording, I have a lot of experience with this form of elequence, I am currently getting the feel of this forum because I found it only recently, and i'm picking up momentum and it also looks like I'll be around here for a long time coming inshallah. Now going back a bit to the point of 'why him', well it's very simple, deviancy and deception has been a very loathesome issue for me, and who you refer to as 'sahib' and I refer to as shaitan has these traits of deviancy and deception, I am not gonna even think about trying defend my remarks for the simple matter of you coming back and saying 'prove it' which I have seen MANY a times, because when you 'ahmadis' do that you always try and sway the issue at hand into another angle, i'm not referring to these forums btw, i'm speaking from my personal experience. I'm really looking forward to some good times on here:)
Ahmedjee
Whether I understand or overstand world religions different from your reasoning and logic is not the topic here. This is a matter of opinion.
The fact remains that for someone who you claim was a reformer, mehdi, prophet or whatever, it is ironic that he did not visit the House of God despite being given Wahi. Even for the average 'muslim' visiting the House of their Lord and being spiritually cleansed is a must and priority in life. Like I stated previously, even Muslims with an ounce of belief have visited Mecca over the last 1400 years or so by the grace of their Lord. Mirzas legacy if you can call it that is only 100 or so years old, but he still couldn't visit. WHY? Please don't elaborate on the 'persecution by humans fallacy'.
If Allah had wanted for him to visit, then no power on earth could of stopped him. The Qur'aan testifies to this reasoning.
I find it literally impossible to comprehend that someone who claimed to be so close to Allah SWT was let down so badly. No other Messenger was treated in this way by their Lord.
Mr. Sholay:
You are forgetting our beloved Holy Prohet (peace be upon him) who are mocked, stones thrown at him, abused by the people of Taif.
You are forgetting Jesus who was hanged on the cross!
Do you want me to give you more examples?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Sholay:
You are forgetting our beloved Holy Prohet (peace be upon him) who are mocked, stones thrown at him, abused by the people of Taif.
You are forgetting Jesus who was hanged on the cross!
Do you want me to give you more examples?
[/QUOTE]
Read Mr Sholay's post again and try to fathom what he is saying. And if your still having problems understanding what he is saying, please free to ask for clarification.
To Mr. Ally and Mr. Sholay,
Assalamo Alykum,
Since when performing hajj became the criteria to judge anyone’s beliefs. Although it is the 5th pillar of faith, but there are have been countless god fearing muslims who could not perform this duty due to one reason or another, and God will not ask them why they could not visit Ka’aba as He has granted a leave for those who have a genuine reason for not going there.
Secondly, if something is Prophecised and it does not happen, that does not mean that God (Naoozobillah) failed to fullfill his promise. There is a famous incidence of Hudaybiyah, Prophet :saw: saw a sign in a dream that God wills him to perform Hajj. And he and his companions did set off for Hajj. Now Prophet :saw: understood that God wanted him to do Hajj, but it did not Happen as per plans. True that Prophet :saw: went later, but according to your standards, the prophecy was not fullfilled.
In case of Promised Massiah (as), the performance of Hajj was conditional to the situation at hand. There was immence work load of writing and spreading his message, and then Mullahs of subcontinent has formed allies in Mecca and Madina to oppose him. In such conditions, if Hajj is not performed then there is no blame on the person. Or is there??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *
To Mr. Ally and Mr. Sholay,
Assalamo Alykum,
Since when performing hajj became the criteria to judge anyone's beliefs. Although it is the 5th pillar of faith
[/QUOTE]
Fair and vaild point I have no argument with that. Since when has it become the criteria for any person to judge the finalty of the prophet muhammad(PBUH)?
I was just strolling around for some school related stuff, do not mean to barge in the discussion like this. But I would like to say something that might be a little criteria. If I was to follow some one, I would look at their character, their actions, if they are coherent with what they say. Do they practise what they preach. True Hajj is the 5th Pillar of Islam. Its still a pillar, It has to be fulfilled as it is Fardh for who are capable. The reason the Prophet SAW went further than what was required is because he was setting an example for other people. Mirza Sahib did not perform Hajj, what was the reason? Regardless if it was a prophecy or a dream....He was Physically capable as well as Financially. He admitted saying that he had Rs. 300,000/. At that time there was no restrictions on Ahmadies for going to Makkah. There was no Passport asking you to state the sect to which you belong to. If the person that is suppose to guide people in the right path ("Ahmadiyat"=True Islam) did not fulfill the very basic pillar of Islam, how would you ecpect the followers to do it. The argument "There are alot of people that did not perform Hajj and Allah will not judge on that" is very weak one, as Mirza was not an ordinary person he was a Prophet in the eyes of the followers. True that Allah is the Final authority judging who would enter Heaven or Hell, but Mirza Sahib not performing Hajj would be a logical question to ask, since he has put him self in that position by claiming Prophethood.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
since he has put him self in that position by claiming Prophethood.
[/QUOTE]
But the ahmadi's will say he did not put HIMSELF in that position, they're belief is he was put in that position by allah.
Yeah so were other Prophets and they all did what they told other people to do as the right thing!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
Yeah so were other Prophets and they all did what they told other people to do as the right thing!
[/QUOTE]
LOL, you just answered yourself, because that would have been the reply by them anyway!
I think I am not comprehending what you meant by your last post. I was saying since Allah had apointed other Prophets, even Prophet SAW. All the Prophets practised the basic tenants of the religion they were preaching where as Mirza Sahib did'nt.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Perplexing: *
I think I am not comprehending what you meant by your last post. I was saying since Allah had apointed other Prophets, even Prophet SAW. All the Prophets practised the basic tenants of the religion they were preaching where as Mirza Sahib did'nt.
[/QUOTE]
What I was trying to get across and I think I didn't put it across correctly is that the ahmaddi's response would have been that mirza was put there by allah and no matter how hard you try and quiz them they will always have some cheapscate response to it by referring to quran and sunnah, my argument is the same all the time, if they adhere to the quran and sunnah so why are they still not willing to accpet the finalty of the prophet muhammad(PBUH) which after all IS from the quran and sunnah.
I said this in a previous post now matter what you, me or anyone says they will just take you around in circles. The whole ethos and foundation is built upon lies, deception, distortion and most important of them all MANIPULATION.
Bottom line, waste of time getting into a debate with them. The best we can do is pray and make dua they see islam in it's purest sense and not of manipulation and distortion.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rally: *
Bottom line, waste of time getting into a debate with them. The best we can do is pray and make dua they see islam in it's purest sense and not of manipulation and distortion.
[/QUOTE]
as is the case with other non-muslims, the ahmedis too can not see Islam in its purest state....
blinded by belief in false religions....
you mean ISLAM?? ;), as only ISLAM is our religion, and it´s not false!!! 
Quran 2:8-13
*Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" but they do not (really) believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe but they only deceive themselves and realize (it) not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they (incur) because they are false (to themselves).
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth" they say: "Why we only want to make peace!"
Of a surety they are the ones who make mischief but they realize (it) not.
When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe" they say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" nay of a surety they are the fools buy they do not know. *
laugh as loud as u can, but surely this is the truth about u....
and dont make urself look more stupid by reversing this back on muslims....
u know very well that these verses describe very well all ppl who r like u....
who say they r muslims, but infact r not....
I am not reversing back to you, i will only say, this vers discribe about those who were Munafiq of course but handle with AnHz Mohammad :saw: as they are MUSLIMS, we swear in the name of Allah(swt) that we are MUSLIMS and we reject all kind of unislamic things, which bring a Muslim away from ISLAM!
...
Brother Sholay,
If Allah had wanted for him to visit, then no power on earth could of stopped him.
Above, in essence you reiterated what Mirza Sahib said in his answer to those who asked him in his life time that why doesn’t he perform hajj. His main argument was “If Allah wills me to go, I will”
If can’t read the Urdu in this link then let me paraphrase it for you.
Mirza Sahib was asked several times this question throughout his lifetime. And he answered it pretty much the same way. His argument was, that Nabi (Mamor-e-Khuda, the one’s appointed by God) do not do anything without Allah’s consent. They follow whatever Allah tells them, not what the popular vote of his followers or in your case expectations of his opponents may be.
If he was an imposter and pleasing the general public was his motive, then he could have gone to hajj and please you, along with all the other Mullahs. Instead, like any true prophet, he followed what Allah directed to him and performed everything as per Allah’s will.
In the above mentioned text he also gave example of AnHazoor :saw: who didn’t perform hajj even for a single time during his 13 years in Mecca. He was staying in Mecca, right next to the Kabba but yet he didn’t perform hajj. Care to explain why? Because Allah had other things for him to do & he followed Allah not the Mullahs or Kuffars of his time. Even in his Madani life, he only performed hajj once!
Lastly, if you, along with your friends here, consider that not performing hajj undermine Mirza Sahib’s credibility then I have no problem with it. I can only explain how he answered that question and by all means it is more than enough for me. If it is not for you, then I am the least bothered as you have to answer in front of God, not me.
And understanding world religion & respecting even though disagreeing with the other person’s belief ties into your repetitiveness to ask the same question. If you didn’t get my above explanation, you won’t get the fine points of religious discussion anyway!
rally,
The reason why you would want to know about someone whom you consider "Shaitan" is because the Jews tried to crucify their Messiah calling him pretty much the same thing. They didn't harm him much, but Allah declared them almaghdoob & alddalleen & took away all His favors from them! The Holy Prophet (saw) predicted that his Ummah will eventually be like the Jews, as if they are pair of the same shoe!
So, in all your aura of knowing it all, reflect upon the actions of those who appose Mirza Sahib & you will see how true the words of Holy Prophet (saw) are.