A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

Have you ever heard of the "Prime Directive" from Star Trek? It makes a lot of sense. It says that there can be no interference with the natural development of any primitive society, meaning that no primitive culture (Earth) can be given or exposed to any information regarding advanced technology or the existence of expraplanetary civilizations (them).

It makes a lot of sense. A civilization that advanced wouldn't have any trouble hiding from such a primitive society as Earth.

Exactly what kind of physical evidence do you expect to find? Alien bones? Dinosaurs were neither an advanced civilization or from a billion light years away. Not really a related example.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

But even a 1 percent chance is still significant if we consider its implications.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

seminole! This is indeed interesting. You are not ready to believe in Quran though 1500 years before it told you that how life originated on earth i.e. in water and How earth was created (came out of a unity) and you are ready to believe on carl sagan and star trek. It is amazing.

If people like mostar say that Quran is having nothing other than stories of Arabia, it is because Quran

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

seminole! This is indeed interesting. You are not ready to believe in Quran though 1500 years before it told you that how life originated on earth i.e. in water and How earth was created (came out of a unity) and you are ready to believe on carl sagan and star trek. It is amazing.

If people like mostar say that Quran is having nothing other than stories of Arabia, it is because Quran is not encyclopedia britannica but a book of religion. Quran invites you to travel around the world and see for yourself. And you know that Quran says that there are signs of Allah scattered around us if we can see. What signs it refers, mostly about life. All the process it refers to are processes you called life which is the most perplexing question for athiest scientists. How life started?

That day i read about panspermia. It was interesting, so now scientists say that life may have come from somewhere else but definitley did not start here. The mechanism they describe for this is some meteorite. wonderful stretch of imagination. If you believe life originated somewhere else that too on some meteorite (this is without any proof, then why you deny a religious person who said that life was sent on earth by Allah). This is biased thinking.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

I almost wrote down in my last post that Star Trek always seems a bible replacement for “religious” space athiests.

Sure you can find counter arguments to Fermi’s paradox, thats what religious people do with God too, im not going to step on a believer’s toes too much. whether it be that theyre tiptoeing around or that they havent heard us yet (but since we can see so many stars why cant we hear the radio emissions of those thousands of aliens?)

point is that you dont have to be physically present when an interaction occurs for it to be detected by modern technology. What that evidence could be is hard to imagine since any conception we have of aliens is through fiction. But ancient alien radio transmissions from thousands of light years ago, non-earth minerals on supposed places of alien presence, etc etc could all be evidence.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?


I am neither an atheist or follow the antics of a ficitional sci-fi series as a bible. I used it as an example for people who think that life that is intelligent enough to exlpore the universe isn't intelligent enough to hide it from primitive species such as man.

[quote]
point is that you dont have to be physically present when an interaction occurs for it to be detected by modern technology. What that evidence could be is hard to imagine since any conception we have of aliens is through fiction. But ancient alien radio transmissions from thousands of light years ago, non-earth minerals on supposed places of alien presence, etc etc could all be evidence.
[/quote]
You may not need to be physically present, but there has to be phsyical evidence. There is physical evidence of dinosaurs because they lived on this planet. That is not even part of the same conversation when discussing possible life that exists billions of miles away.

And I don't believe that the absence of radio transmissions (or our ability to detect them) is proof of no other life. Again, we are talking about billions of miles, the possibility of technology far superior to ours, and the very real possiblity they do not want us to detect them. It is also possible that civilizations exist on a similiar timeline as Earth, and aren't that advanced. Man has only had radios for what, 100 years?

BTW, it could also be said by an unbiased person that the only conception we have of God is through fiction

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

And the motivation you say is the Prime Directive. Are all of the thousands of aliens followers of star trek and do all of them have the same need to avoid meddling with primitive civilizations? cant some of them be more like the Romulans (or the Republicans) and not go around hiding their footprints everywhere they go as long as they can gain from the resource rich oasis Earth in a very infertile universe (or even just be indifferent)?

Stars are billions of miles away but we are able to see them. Similarly if any of the thousands of civilizations that are scattered over space AND time have existed they surely must leave some sort of EM footprint unless theyre all hiding from us?

This comes back to my point about the reasons and rationale for aliens being similar to that of a religious person with God. If you are a consistent agnostic, the reasons for not believing in God are the same as reasons for not believing in aliens (zero evidence, burden of proof being laid on the skeptic, complete speculation as reasons for belief). Yet a whole lot of agnostics IMO religiously believe in aliens.

Sure. But the level of consensus we have about the Bible being fictional is very different from that about Star Trek/X-files etc. It can be equivocally said that any conception we have about Aliens is fictional, not so much about God.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

Folks, lets not wander away to other galaxies and planets. Let us deduce our conclusions with what is within our grasp i.e. our earth. Now there may be life on other planets however those are all question marks and theories. For someone who is an Atheist or Agnostic to argue about possibilities in space is just as absurd as there claim against those who believe in God. They say we can't prove God whereas the same argument would hold true that they cannot prove anything in the universe when it comes to life, its all theories based on signs and symbols. When it comes to forming a belief based on signs and symbols as evidence believers and people leveraging space would fall in the same category.

I've also seen some replies indulging into evolution. Now this is something that can be debated and studied since it involves real life. Can any of the naturalist believers here show the development of the human brain through evolution. There is gulf of differences between the capabilities and nervous system of humans and any other species on this planet. Why is there no indication that any animal species has even remotely developed in this world like the humans. Surely if life can evolve into different forms as argued by naturalists then so should the nervous system of different species evolve and not just humans.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?


You cannot make broad generaliztions about 'agnostics'. I think because Muslims follow such an absolute and rigid belief system there is a propensity to pigeon hole other people in defined belief system. You cannot generalize "agnostics". It is undefinable by defintion. It is incorrect to say agnostics don't believe in God. A particluar person who labels himslef agnostic? Sure, but there is no group of "agnostics" to label as cleanly and definitely as "Muslims".

[quote]
Sure. But the level of consensus we have about the Bible being fictional is very different from that about Star Trek/X-files etc. It can be equivocally said that any conception we have about Aliens is fictional, not so much about God.
[/quote]
Of course Star Trek/X-files is fictional, but my "prime directive" reference aside, you are now generalizing life outside of this planet by pigeon-holing it as popular culture, man-made versions. So yes, our conceptions are fictional, but research and studies exist that provide scientific reasoning. Not so much though about God.

There is nothing in any religious texts that I have read that precludes life being on other planets.

And there is nothing about life on other planets that precludes there being a God. The Muslim God, Christian God or Agnostic God.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

It is correct to say agnostics dont believe in God. It is incorrect to say that agnostics believe there is no God.

If there is one thing that does define agnostics it is their attitude towards God. In this discussion when I speak of attitudes that agnostics have I mean prominent agnostics who have set the philosophical foundation of the group. Sure there are nominal agnostics too jsut as there are nominal Muslims, but there is definitely a specific intellectual outlook.

Here are some definitions:

A word first used by Professor Huxley, to indicate one who believes nothing which cannot be demonstrated by the senses.

www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-glos.htm
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aagnostic&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

Research and studies exist that provide any scientific basis for Aliens? Reference please.

agree

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

seminole & ravage. I think USR has aptly summarized it. What about panspermia? Finally life is being found in the outer universe that was at some time in history closer to us and has gone far now. My advice to athiests and scientists is that if you can stretch your imagination this far, why not 50% believe that there may be Allah. The scientists and athiests simply go berserk once Allah is mentioned and refuse to listen anything.

Please do not think that the book of genesis is originally from Allah. They are man made books full of factual errors. Like in Noah's flood Quran has not categorically stated that it flooded whole earth, neither it mentions Mount Arrarat but some mount Joudee which i am not sure if known by this name still. Do not think that Quran is all about repition of bible books. Off course some things in bible books were described by Jesus himself as both he and Hazrat Muhammad both were messengers of Allah.

Give it a 50% chance in your minds not outright rejection.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

Speed of light
**299,792.458 km/s is the speed of light in vacuum. However, according to Einstein’s theory of General Relativity, the speed of light appears to vary with the intensity of the gravitational field. **
But 1400 years ago it was stated in the Quran (Koran, the book of Islam) that angels travel in one day the / same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 Lunar Orbits Earth Day. Outside gravitational fields 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day turned out to be the known speed of light
Speed of light 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day
**When we compare the speed of light in vacuum with 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day inside the gravitational field of the sun we get 11% difference. When we compare them outside the gravitational field of the sun we get zero% difference: **
The distance to the sun is not a constant; so as the distance to the sun increases the difference in energy causes the length of the lunar orbit to change. When the Earth-moon system exits the solar system 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day becomes equal to the speed of light. Hence, if it is defined inside the gravitational field of the sun then this definition will be wrong with time; however since it is defined outside the gravitational field of the sun then this definition will be true for ever!

**we Muslims believe that angels are low density creatures, and that God created them originally from light. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out God’s orders. Those angels take their orders from a Preserved Tablet somewhere in outer space, and not from God’s Throne. They commute to and from this Preserved Tablet to get their orders from God. In the following verse, the Quran is describing how angels travel when they commute to and from this Tablet.**And the speed at which they commute to and from this Tablet turned out to be the known speed of light
32: 5(Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.
It is the angels who carryout these orders Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Those people back then followed the lunar calendar and counted 12 lunar months each year. These months are related to the moon and not related to the sun. Since this verse is referring to distance, then Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits. Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be the known speed of light (the Preserved Tablet is itself outside gravitational fields).
The Earth-moon system covers an angle ø around the sun each lunar month. Every point in this orbit has a certain magnitude and a certain direction. As the moon heads to the sun it speeds up, and as it heads away from the sun it slows down. This creates a sector of the orbit where the moon is speeding up
**But as the Earth goes around the sun, the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars is changing. This makes the sector where the moon is speeding up move forward inside the orbit such that it points to the sun again; similarly the sector where the moon is slowing down moves forward inside the orbit such that it points away from the sun again. Hence the entire orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun (twist). This means that the orbit is influenced by a net rotational force (like torque around Earth). As the distance to the sun increases to infinity, ø decreases to zero and this force decreases to zero. When we vectorially remove the energy gained from this force we can calculate the total energy and hence the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields. **
Period synodic (sun) sidereal(stars)
**earth day t 24 hours=86400 sec 23 h 56 min 4.0906 sec= 86164.0906 sec
Lunar Month T 29.53059 days 27.321661 days = 655.71986 hours
When the Earth-moon system is still inside the solar system the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars changes; this means that the moon has to make more than 360 degrees with respect to stars in order to point to the sun again. However when the Earth-moon system exits the solar system the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars remains the same, that is, the moon now only has to make 360 degrees with respect to stars in order to point to the sun again (the synodic periods become equal to the sidereal periods). This means that the lunar month with respect to the sun becomes equal to lunar month with respect to stars and Earth day with respect to the sun becomes equal to Earth day with respect to stars. So the 1000 lunar years with respect to sun become equal to 12000 lunar months with respect to stars.
(Also when astronomers study the energy of orbits they use the sidereal system, that is, the moon has to return to the same position with respect to stars and not return to the same position with respect to the sun.)
**Distance: **
Distance traveled by angels in one day = 12000 x Distance traveled by moon during one orbit
**Þ C t’ = 12000 L’
**Where: **
C =Is the speed of angels, which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).
t’ =Is the Earth Day defined as the time of one rotation of the Earth about its axis with respect to the stars (sidereal); i.e. 23 hr, 56 min, 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906sec.
L’ =Is the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).
Length of Lunar Orbit:
Length of lunar orbit = Velocity x Time (L = V T)
**The velocity of the moon is not constant. NASA measured the spontaneous velocity of the moon at various instances throughout its orbit. These measurements show that the velocity of the moon varies considerably (from 3470 km/hr up to 3873 km/hr); which means that the moon accelerates and decelerates continuously. The average lunar velocity is V
avg = 3682 km/hr. **
The lunar orbit relative to Earth is a low eccentricity ellipse. Most astronomy textbooks calculate the length of the lunar orbit manually by the following equivalent circle method: The radius of the equivalent circle is R = 384267 km, so the length (L) of this orbit relative to Earth is:
L = V T = 2 π R
**Þ **V = 2 π R / T
Substituting R = 384267 km and T = sidereal lunar month = 655.71986 hr:
V = (2 x 3.l4l593 x 384267) / 655.71986 = 3682.092 km/hr
**Although this velocity is correct relative to Earth, this velocity is under the influence of the gravitational pull of the sun. We can vectorially calculate the velocity of the moon relative to Earth without the gravitational pull of the sun and hence the new length of the lunar orbit: **

The work done by the gravitational field of the sun by creating a net rotational force on the lunar orbit (twist )is
Without the sun (isolated Earth-moon system) the moon’s isolated vector remains in the original direction with respect to stars (no twist); but with the sun (compounded system), the moon’s compounded vector changes direction by angle ø with respect to stars each cycle around Earth (twist). This means that the moon’s orbital energy is the vectorial sum of the intrinsic energy of Earth-moon system (kinetic energy of Earth’s spin transferred to the lunar orbit by **
ocean friction](http://www.paklinks.com/l%20ocean_friction)
; see how below) plus the energy acquired from this twist. **
**Since the distance to the sun is not a constant then as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but without the energy gained from this twist the orbital radius decreases to R’ = Rcosø (see proof at footnote **ence the moon’s isolated orbital length becomes L’ = 2
Rcosø = Lcosø (i.e. 12000 L ’ / t’ = 12000 Lcosø / t’).
**Speed of Angels: **
So finally we can calculate the speed of angels outside gravitational fields and compare it to the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s:
C t’ = 12000 L’
And L’= L cosø = V T cosø
C t’ = 12000 V T cosø
**C = (12000 V T cosø ) / t’ **
**Substituting the NASA sidereal values of the periods T and t’ (from above table); ø is 26.9295 degrees and could be manually calculated at this footnote **; cosø = 0.8915645, we arrive at the speed of angels as claimed in the Quran:
**C = (12000 x 3682.092 x 655.71986 x 0.8915645) / 86164.0906 **
c=299792.5 km
Exactly the known Speed o
SPEED OF LIGHT outside gravitational fields = 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day
Since the distance to the sun is not a constant then if it is defined inside the gravitational field of the sun and not outside it then this definition will be wrong with time; however since it is defined outside the gravitational field of the sun then this definition will be true forever:

Ocean Friction
Do you remember the oceanic high tide and low tide? Well they are caused by lunar gravity. This figure teaches you how ocean friction transfers the kinetic energy of Earth’s spin to the lunar orbit:
**Ocean friction is causing the rotation of Earth to slow down, that is, for the days to get longer (t’ increases). And as Earth’s rotation slows down the moon recedes (R’ increases). For the moon to orbit Earth with the same velocity and altitude but without any assistance from the sun, it needs to acquire even more energy from Earth’s spin; that is t’ has to increase until R’ = R. **
c = 12000 L’ / t ’ = 12000 2 π R’ / t’
**Both R’ and t’ are increasing but due to a fundamental law in astronomy the ratio R’ / t ’ remains the same: The tidal force decelerating Earth is the same force pushing the moon. Since the force pushing the moon is gravitational, then it is inversely proportional to the square of the distance to the moon. Similarly, this same force decelerating Earth is proportional to the change in kinetic energy in Earth’s spin, that is, it is inversely proportional to the square of Earth day. This makes the square of the distance to the moon to be directly proportional to the square of Earth day. This implies that the distance to the moon remains proportional to Earth day. Hence R’ / t’ is a constant equal to 3.976120966 (R’ / t’ = R cosø / t’). This makes the equation in the Quran c = 12000 L’ / t’ to be composed only of constants, with no variables. Hence, 12000 Lunar Orbits/ Earth Day is a constant forever.As the moon acquires more energy from Earth’s spin it does not actually speed up, instead it slows down because it orbits at a higher altitude (R’ increases). This is also what happens when energy is transferred from stars to their orbiting planets, they slow down and recede. **

4.5 billion years ago the moon formed when a planet the size of Mars collided with Earth. On impact, Earth gained angular momentum (rotational speed). This angular momentum has been slowly transferring to the lunar orbit. On impact of that planet with Earth, the molten debris recoiled with a certain escape velocity and sucked vaporized water and some gases from Earth’s atmosphere. This debris clustered to form the moon. But the moon couldn’t maintain those gases because its gravity was extremely weak and it didn’t have a magnetic shield; so it lost those gases and settled in orbit without this mass. The equation in the Quran c = 12000 Lunar Orbits/ Earth Day has been true in the isolated system ever since the moon first lost this mass, that is, since the early creation of the Earth-moon; is true today and as the moon continues to recede this equation in the Quran will always be true.
**To learn why there are two tidal bulges, one facing the moon and another one opposite to it, **
Variable Speed of Light:
**12000 Lunar Orbits/ Earth Day = 299,792.458 km/s is the speed of light for observers standing outside gravitational fields and looking at light also traveling outside gravitational fields. But an observer near a black hole for example sees the speed of light outside gravitational fields a zillion km/s. This is because the velocity of light appears to vary with the intensity of the gravitational field . **
According to the theory of General Relativity an observer standing outside gravitational fields looks at events inside gravitational fields and sees them in slow motion. When he steps inside those gravitational fields he sees them in normal speeds. But now he looks back at where he was outside gravitational fields and sees the events there in fast motion. In our case the event is the moon orbiting Earth. When an observer in stronger gravitational fields, near a black hole for example, looks at the Earth-moon system he does not see the moon orbiting Earth once every month; instead he sees the moon orbiting Earth once every few seconds; he also sees the length of the lunar orbit to be much longer than we see it. This is because the gravitational field that he is in causes his clock to run slower and his ruler to shrink.
Not only observers in different gravitational fields will not agree on the time period for the lunar orbit but also they will not agree on the length of the lunar orbit either. By using classical orbital mechanics we discovered that all observers will see the speed of light outside gravitational fields equal to 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; but from General Relativity we know that they will never agree on a value in km/sec. An observer near a black hole for example sees the speed of light outside gravitational fields a zillion km/s, but still equal to 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day! This means that if the speed of angels outside gravitational fields were defined in km / sec then it would have appeared to vary for observers in different gravitational fields; however since this speed was defined in Lunar Orbits/Earth Day then it will never appear to vary to anyone because 12000 Lunar Orbits /Earth Day is common to all observers. Hence outside gravitational fields this equation in the Quran is true for all observers forever
(10:5)It is He (Allah) who made the sun to shine and the moon to light, and destined it in stages; that you may learn to count the years and the mathematics. Allah only created this in truth. He details His Signs for those who are knowledgeable (scientists).

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

Sir jee, this is not a class for beautiful minds but rather a discussion.

Re: A question to Agnosts and Atheists?

The sun is about 93,000,000 miles away and 7 minutes light speed away. How fast is the speed of light? Very fast about 186,283,397 m/s(670,616,629,384 miles/hr). It travels less than 2 seconds from Earth to Moon. By the way each kilometer is about 1.6 miles. The nearest star to us is about 4.3 light years away. Our galaxy is about 100,000 light years across containing over 100 billion stars. Its called the Milky Way. The nearest galaxy to ours is about 1,000,000 light years away. There are more than 50 billion galaxies in the universe each with about 100 billion stars each.

Not enough? OK

That the Earth rotates around the sun at 67,000 miles per hour!Completing the rotation once every year.
This is a lot faster than the 0.5 km/s(1,000 miles/hr) caused by the Earth’s rotation on its axis! It does it approximately in 24 hours. In fact, because it is so small compared to the other velocities we’re working with, it’s reasonable to ignore that 0.5km/s(1,000 miles/hr) for the rest of the calculation.

Now, the whole solar system is moving around the center of the galaxy at about 230 km/s(515,000 miles/hr). For half of the year, the Earth’s motion around the sun is in the same direction as this motion about the center of the galaxy, but for the other half, it is in the opposite direction–that is, sometimes we’re moving “upstream,” and sometimes we’re moving “downstream.” When the motions are exactly aligned, the velocities combine to 230 km/s + 30 km/s = 260 km/s When they are opposite, though, we have to subtract the velocities: 230 km/s - 30 km/s = 200 km/s

So that sums up the first three kinds of motion. Finally, there is the motion of the whole galaxy, which can actually be broken down further into the motion of the galaxy in the Local Group–a cluster of about 20 galaxies–and the motion of the Local Group in an even bigger cluster, the Local Supercluster. These velocities are about 40 km/s and about 600 km/s.

Adding everything up, we get:

30 km/s + 230 km/s + 40 km/s + 600 km/s = 900 km/s equals about (2,025,000 miles/hr)!

So, you’re moving pretty fast as you lie in bed!

Oh thats not enough, OK you asked for it. Atheists beware:!

You want to know God part 1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKPUYZZbWxs

You want to know God part 2?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5EUtVcfAOE

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do…universe+space

You want to know God part 3?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Je1GdGpsxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXCmQdSl0GA