If you are talking about sex with minors, some of the worst offenses happen in the Christian dominated tribal societies in the African countries.
In fact AIDS epidemic has made the situation much worse for teenage girls. Even one of the top South African leader is on record saying that taking shower after sex and having sex with virgins will prevent or cure AIDS.
As I said, protection of minor girls depends on the degree of civilization in a society, regardless of their religion.
.. So are you implying that religious folks tend to be more tribal? If so, I don't disagree with that at all.
No.
Tribal people tend to practice stricter form of religion.
It is the culture that drives the religious practices and not the other way around.
If you are talking about sex with minors, some of the worst offenses happen in the Christian dominated tribal societies in the African countries.
In fact AIDS epidemic has made the situation much worse for teenage girls. Even one of the top South African leader is on record saying that taking shower after sex and having sex with virgins will prevent or cure AIDS.
As I said, protection of minor girls depends on the degree of civilization in a society, regardless of their religion.
No, I mean oppression.
Parts of Africa are messed up in each and every sense, I would rather not include them.
[quote]
No.
Tribal people tend to practice stricter form of religion.
It is the culture that drives the religious practices and not the other way around.
Hope that helps.
[/quote]
So what did the Taliban use to bring upon the Islamic revolution? Afghanistan was hardly tribal prior to 1970s.
You can't pick and chose societies to fit your view.
You have to be open and accepting in order to fully understand the situation with the tribal societies.
I am. But comparing places like Sub saharan Africa to the Middle East is like comparing apples to oranges. Africa has bigger issues than religion. Religion is probably their last concern after poverty, AIDs, other diseases, food water and shelter. Their tribalism hardly uses religion to manipulate people.
[quote]
Miss Noland,
yOu have a good compassionate soul.
However it does not mean that you can make up the history or geography.
Afghanistan has been the cesspool of tribalism since ages. Ask us the Pakistanis. We live next door.
[/quote]
I am not speaking of ethnic tribes. I am well aware of the ethnic/racial groups and tribes in Afghanistan. If that's the tribalism you are speaking of, then yes, it has been a part of Afghanistan for as long as it has existed. What I am saying is that Afghanistan before the revolution was a peaceful place and the tribal differences didn't make much difference at all. Once the Taliban took over, it fell right into medieval tribalism. What didn't matter much now matters like hell. If you are a Hazara, you are scum. If you are anybody but Pashtun you don't belong in Afghanistan.
[quote]
In fact Pakistani areas next to afghan border are also tribal.
And as I said earlier, that tribal people use everything including religion in order to support their view of the world.
It is the tribal culture that drives the religion in the tribal societies,
Just like
It is the urbanized culture in the West that shapes and molds the churches.
[/QUOTE]
Read my reply to burqaposhx’s post. This will explain what I mean by Afghan tribalism. I don’t claim to know everything but I always do my homework before I make any kind of statement. So I would kindly request that you stop making assumptions.
Its astonishing how Muslims today get embarrassed, outraged or shocked at the marriage of Rasul Allah [sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam] to Aisha
Whatever age she was when she got married, if there was ANYTHING wrong with, anything the slightest bit immoral or indecent or shameful about, do you think for one second that Allah would have allowed for His Messenger to do this? In the Quran, Allah Himself gives testimony to the noble character of the Prophet, peace be upon him. Why would Allah do that unless it was absolutely, positively correct without a doubt in the world
By what standards are we judging the marriage of Aisha to be something wrong? By the standards of morality and decency set for us by Allah Himself? Or by the standards of the Western world? This is the society we are looking to for guidance in helping to determine what is pure and what isnt, what is "normal" and what isnt? A society where people jump in bed with anything that crawls and never look back. A society where its old for 5 year old girls to walk around in short shorts that say juicy on their butt. A society where married couples attend swing parties to exchange partners for the night. A society where girls and boys are losing their virginity at 12, 13, 14 and earlier each year and no one thinks thats a problem. I read an article in the paper a few years back, it was about elementary school children, in grade 5 I think, and it was discovered that the girls were performing oral sex on the boys in the school bus ON THE WAY TO SCHOOL AT 8AM IN THE MORNING!!
Im sorry, but that is NOT the society that I as a Muslim look to, to set my standards of morality. Whatever the Prophet peace be upon him did, he did with the guidance of Allah. There was nothing in it for any Muslim to be ashamed of or think there was anything wrong with it. Im sure none of us today would give our approval for our 10 year old daughters to marry a 50 year old man. But would we have been happy for them to marry the Prophet peace be upon him? Im sure we would have all cut off our arms for such a chance!
For god sake people, stop being apologetic. The simple answer is, yes he did. There were few reasons that in that culture, girls were getting married at young age.
maybe he didn't!!
1-no one got aisha's birth certificate.
2-telling some she was able to pick up a baby does not tell if person was 12 0r 42?? thats how historians came up with figure.
3-as we know our prophet....its not likey.
4-muslims were the first one to recognize the need to marry girls over 18.
In fact first legislation was done in egypt.
Its very unlikely for respected reasonable man form muslim society to do so.
the reason too it was the custom in those days and as aisha (r.a.)was youngershe spent a time(she was 18 when the prophet died) she learnt a lot from him and as a person with youth her memory was relied upon for most of the hadith.
I am not speaking of ethnic tribes. I am well aware of the ethnic/racial groups and tribes in Afghanistan. If that's the tribalism you are speaking of, then yes, it has been a part of Afghanistan for as long as it has existed. What I am saying is that Afghanistan before the revolution was a peaceful place and the tribal differences didn't make much difference at all. Once the Taliban took over, it fell right into medieval tribalism. What didn't matter much now matters like hell. If you are a Hazara, you are scum. If you are anybody but Pashtun you don't belong in Afghanistan.
How convenient of you to forget the outsiders' involvement in all of the mess and accuse the Taliban for everything.
Also, Taliban judging by race is news to me. AFAIK there are people from all over the world under the Taliban, they do not discriminate, if you're a Muslim, they'll welcome you.
How convenient of you to forget the outsiders' involvement in all of the mess and accuse the Taliban for everything.
Also, Taliban judging by race is news to me. AFAIK there are people from all over the world under the Taliban, they do not discriminate, if you're a Muslim, they'll welcome you.
The "Outsiders" you speak of did not have direct contact with the people of Afghanistan. The Taliban were not given orders by the "outsiders" to make people follow the Sharia law. It was THEIR agenda to racidally "Islamitize" Afghanistan. I am all for blaming America for a lot of things but this is certainly not one of them.
Discrimination towards Hazara and other minorities in Afghanistan is no joke.
The "Outsiders" you speak of did not have direct contact with the people of Afghanistan. The Taliban were not given orders by the "outsiders" to make people follow the Sharia law. It was THEIR agenda to racidally "Islamitize" Afghanistan. I am all for blaming America for a lot of things but this is certainly not one of them.
Soviets? Then came the Afghan commies/athiests (backed by outsiders) which lead to civil war.. Then came America.. So are you saying Taliban is the evil doer here in all this mess? Taliban not only was and is resisting the occupation but it was and is eradicating all the ills of society (ie drug trade, prostitution). (we can debate the methods used in another thread). but Americans were not happy with their work. hmm I wonder why.
And you may call Sharia, a tribal, medieval, whatever derogatory word you want to use. But that is what rids society of evil. If you don't like that then please carry on praising capitalism or whatever ism or remain silent!
Discrimination towards Hazara and other minorities in Afghanistan is no joke.
I know it's no joke but the Taliban do not discriminate unless you fight against Islam.
[anyway i don't why this thread has gone so off-topic]
I dont know the entire deal of this ... but in a discussion i had with my father about this topic, he said something that made sense to me ...
Hazrat Ayesha (ra) was chosen by Allah for out Prophet (pbuh) for her strength, confidence intelligence and determination. God knew that she would prove to be fruitful for the religion, that needed exapnsion at the time. some people even regard her as the first feminist of the Islamic world. the Prophet used to often discuss issues with her.she would be very active during the wars, helping soldiers out, and providing relief.
just to say ... that Ayesha (ra) was chosen for our Prophet not because she was 9 or 12 or 17 ... but because of who she was, and what she would be controbuting to the religion under being the Prophet's wife. If we read more about Hazrat Ayesha (ra) .. her character would reveal how important she was.
and being such a determined women who always had an opinion of her own ... if she had any problem with marrying the Prophet (saw) ... i think she would've said so .. i think she knew what marrying the Propher meant ... even if it was a later realisation.
i want to add another thing ... the Prophet followed Gods commands .. even if it meant that he has to do something extremely difficult ..
i dont know which wife it was ... but when God asked Muhammad (pbuh) to marry his son's wife ... a son who was not by blood, but moun-bhola ... i think that was a very difficult thing for the Prophet ...
he was probably even scared and begged Allah that these people were going to kill him for doing something so wrong ... marrying his son's wife! and then Allah reminded him if it was the people that Prophet feared, or Him?
and i think it was after this situation that adoption and rules of adoption were sent down ... also regarding property rules and rights.
but writing this ... i am just trying to make a point that a Prophet's life is not the easiest one ... he has to make very difficult choices, and he has to go through a lot .. all that Muhammad(pbuh) was able to accomplish was not by magic and mischief ... it was pure struggle.
so why would such a man marry someone for pedophelia or pleasure (nauzubillah)
Oh ok...So, they are rumors that are 'claimed' to be from the prophet. So what you are saying is that 200 years after the prophet died, 'other' people (like Bukhari) heard 'other' people say they heard 'Aisha', an 18 year-old kid, say she heard something from the Prophet......and you call that 'authentic'.
Peace submitmj
This thread is coming to an end of this topic, so I thought I would steer it in another direction.
I would really like to have a focussed discussion with you regarding:
a) Citations of the Qur'an
b) Citations of Hadith
c) Interpretations of both
d) The importance of context and
e) Why I think you are not only wrong but are blameworthy of using the Qur'an to devices which serve a methodology which is unIslamic.
So shall we begin? If so please quote that verse for me from the Qur'an that you have provided in the past to show why following hadith is wrong? No flooding please ... one step at a time just so I can keep up with you.
My Question is this, alot of my non-muslim friends and people who ask me questions about islam ask this alot: dID the prophet, peace be upon him, marry a 9 yr old.....Now my knowledge so far into this is basic...and i need an answer that shuts them up.....becase we all know what these nonmuslims think.
does anyone have any citations and refs.
Congratulations!
You look so much pious and religious, knowledgeable person that someone asked this question to you in real life. No wonder no one asked me this question ever. And bravo, you want to shut them up. ;)
