Ana...
Yeah, thats true.
never knew ana... and we insist on calling all this 'Islam'!
when oh when are we going to go back just to the Qur'an and abandon the disinformation that came shortly after.
In Bahrain there is the Ministry of Religious Affairs, they have two sections, Shi'ite section and Sunni Section. This is where you go to get married, and do all the paperwork, get the nikah done etc..
In most Arab countries, this type of Ministry exists. Bahrain takes its cue from Saudi Arabia. I lub the wahabbis. And yes, the Shi'ites in Bahrain (which is btw 56% Shi'ite, but the government and ruling family is Sunni, something the Amrikans have picked up on to destroy us all) do not have walimas. I was informed that no shi'ites do.. anywhere, and it is wholly optional.
No quote. Just read. And shake head. Dang! This is some serious religion-making going on there.
Ana, I think Bahrain is also a natural friction point between the Arab and Ajem, so the friction has lead to extreme interpretations.
But anyway I am surprised to read all this....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Secondly, you say "just because someone is abusing something". Well, correct me if I am wrong, but Gandalf has actually quoted this ("living together before marriage") as one of the benefits/reasons for muttah. So according to him, its not "misusing" muttah, but rather this is what muttah is for.
[/QUOTE]
How is getting to know someone abusing the mutah system ? Seems everything is sexual to you. You can get to know the person b4 marriage by talking to them, going out with them, and finding out their interests.
You quote a scenario about using mutah as prostitution and then relate that to what I said about using mutah to getting to know someone. Does that sound fair to u brother ?
You do not have to sleep with the person to know them now, do you ?
Grow up a bit and look at the arguments from an unbiased point of view.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
Rhia, just a quick q. U say that Mutah can have a pre-agreed-upon ending as determined by the two parties contracting it, and that is permissible, in fact even was allowed during the Prophet SAW's time (which I agree), but at the same time you highlight the fact that a "full" marriage or Nikah can be ended with a Khula or Talaq, noting that "Divorce is highly disliked but is not a sin".
So tell me, why is Divorce highly disliked, but the ending of Mutah is not disliked.. in fact, is taken for granted?
Do you see the difference?
[/QUOTE]
Ana the difference as someone mentioned is that Mutah is limited by time to start with. How long that is dependent upun what the couple agree on. I had mentioned divorce because someone in the earlier posts stated divorce or the intention to divorce as a sin.
Gandalf... In your rush to continue this debate, you didn't even read carefully. If you had read the post you would have realized that your friend highheelz called it "abusing the mutah system" (or atleast thats what it seemed), not me. You had yourself given the scenario of "living together before marriage" as a valid benefit of muttah. Now go back and read your whole argument carefully. And next time, read carefully before jumping the gun.
And stop trying to score cheap shots by saying "growing up" repeatedly. You fail miserably. Your own knowledge is severely wanting in this area. I don't even presume to know much about it, and thats why I asked the question in my first post. All the responses I have received seem to suggest "yes".
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Rhia... people accept different faiths based on any number of reasons. Many low-cast hindus embraced Islam, so they can be rid of their untouchable status or what not. If what you guys are propagating is true, then shia'sm is perhaps only one of the very few religions/sects which actually sanctify temporary relationships (for sex or whatever purpose). There is no insult in that comment. It is what it is. You might as well just accept it, instead of getting all defensive and criticizing people for showing an interest on these issues.
[/QUOTE]
Brother if interest it is then you are most welcome although as with everything there is a way of showing interest, discussing and even criticizing without insulting and then having the arrogance to cover it up by lambasting what may or may not have been the motives of people to embrace Islam although I would say only God is aware of the intention of others. I still maintain your comments were wholly unnecessary and very careless if only because it is those very statements and other statements like those that give rise horrible rumours and rifts that tear Shias and Sunnis apart today and end up in the massacare of innocent people like that of 15 members of my family in the Mahlovalli incident in april or may (muharram) 2000 while they were doing zikr of the Prophet (pbuh) and his family in God's House. I am sick and tired of the whole Shia versus Sunni thing. If you wish to know to learn to understand our perspectives or to criticise then do so with valid arguments not flippant comments.
I have met many many so called scholars who like to give their own little fatwas on everything and you mention the word shia to them they will jump around fervently claiming what kuffars these people are. They will give fatwas stating how it is jaiz to eat at a mushriks house but not at a Shias. Ask them what Shia or more appropriately Jafri ideology and background is they will have no idea. There is something terribly wrong there and this is the same message that filters down through the generations. I concede for the greater part both Shias and Sunni's live and have always lived peacefully with each other but I have found a large proportion of sunni people have no or very little knowledge of what being a Shia actually is except for maybe the hordes of false propaganda they heard. They will very rarely come to our gatherings or ask about our faiths and beliefs and I think this should be encouraged. I have great respect for people like Ana, (it does seem she has a better grasp of Shia fiqh then most shias themselves would), who will actually bother to read through "our" books as we do "theirs" and find out for themselves what Shiaism is all about and then discuss or debate.
In most Shia and Sunni mixed marriages, everything is the same as for a sunni sunni marriage except maybe the commemoration of Muharram. My great grand parents were Hanafi Sunnis but still used to commemorate Muharram with majalis. Ana the case you mention the people you consulted, I take it they nullify the marriage on the basis of shirk but how do they "prove" shirk - on what basis do they think Shias commit shirk? And do they believe the children from such a marriage are illegitimate if the marriage is nullified? I think that is a very narrow minded view.
Cousin marriages depend largely on your cultural background and preference. People from more culturally open, western inclined societies such as syria lebanon iran are less likely to marry within the family whereas someone of the pakistani feudal background would probably marry within the family.
Bahrain is a unique place where the majority of the population, the Shias have no say in the Government. But then again neither does the majority Shia area of Baltistan in pakistan - there is no electoral recognition there it has long been a favourite government/army policy to keep these people suppressed.
Assalam Alaykum,
Brother Faisal, let me just clear up a few things for you. First of all, I don't know who brother Gandalf is, however by reading his posts I can clearly see that he is very knowledgeable and is just getting a bit frustrated because he has had to repeat himself several times. What he's trying to say is mutah is not just for sex and sex alone, but it can also be used for getting to know someone personally; their feelings, thoughts, etc... without any restrictions of mahram and na-mahram.
When I said that someone was abusing mutah, I was referring to your little example that you gave about the girl and the boy going for a "test drive" which I assumed that you meant sexually. Yes there is nothing wrong with that, but if that's what people are using mutah for over and over again, then in my PERSONAL opinion that is not using mutah for it's full spiritual potential and in fact just taking it for granted.
Wa Salam,
Anila
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
... and end up in the massacare of innocent people like that of 15 members of my family in the Mahlovalli incident in april or may (muharram) 2000 while they were doing zikr of the Prophet (pbuh) and his family in God's House. ...
[/QUOTE]
Inna Lillaahi Wainna Ilaihi Rajeun
I'm so sorry to hear about your loss sister. May Allah (swt) give you strength and guide us all on the right path.
Wa Salam,
Anila
Rhia..
I am not clear what you are off to or whether the whole first para is even relevant. Whether sex is the primary focus of muttah or not is something which is entirely your opinion, and you are welcome to it. The fact remains, that a couple can indulge in sex when they have a muttah. So just admit it, without bringing "this is not the sole purpose etc etc".
Ok, so there might be other benefits of muttah. No one is denying it.
Moving on, Gandalf gave example of "getting to know one another before marriage" as a true benefit of muttah. One of you then said that this is "abusing the system". Thats not the other one said, when he quoted this as a valid benefit. You guys have repeatedly said that the couple can engage in sex during muttah (whether they do it or not is not the point). So, living together without nikah is ok under this muttah. You have said "yes". Fine.
A lot of sunni muslims do not subscribe to validity of muttah in the present time. Many of them, especially those living in western countries, may also engage in pre-marital sex. That may have feelings of guilt, because they feel its a sin. If they read this whole thread, they may say, "this thing is permissible, under certain conditions, so lets find out more". So what was wrong with the question?
I think you guys are just being too defensive. If you feel muttah is allowed, say so upfront. Sex can be part of the muttah. Yes. Why run around it "you guys oppose the prophet (sallalah o alaihay wassalam)" or "you don't understand" or "its not the only reason". The fact is, you guys think its ok, then its ok for you. End of story.
[quote]
end up in the massacare of innocent people like that of 15 members of my family in the Mahlovalli incident in april or may (muharram) 2000 while they were doing zikr of the Prophet (pbuh) and his family in God's House
[/quote]
Inna lilahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon. I am sorry to hear of your loss Rhia, and I hope Insha'Allah the perpetrators of this heinous crime get the justice they deserve in this world as well in the Hereafter.
Ameen
Thank you for your sympathies Ana and Anila.
Brother Faisal, that is just it, it is NOT "just an opinion" it is a valid belief underpinned by logical thought, Sunnah and ahadith of the Prophet. Nobody was running around being ambigious. We stated clearly what Mutah in its entirety is about. You equated it to prostitution, we explained not only why it is not so and even went on further to explain why we believe what we believe based upon the Quran and Sunnah. How clear can a person get? If you wish to be selective in choosing to understand than that is your choice. I have nothing more to say on the topic.
Wa'Salam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I think you guys are just being too defensive. If you feel muttah is allowed, say so upfront. Sex can be part of the muttah. Yes. Why run around it "you guys oppose the prophet (sallalah o alaihay wassalam)" or "you don't understand" or "its not the only reason". The fact is, you guys think its ok, then its ok for you. End of story.
[/QUOTE]
Brother Faisal;
I see that you conveniently brushed aside the sahih hadiths that prove the validity of mutah. So much so that the companions state clearly that they used to perform mutah during the lifetime of the holy prophet (pbuh) until it was banned by Umar who threatened to stone the one doing mutah.
Mutah can involve sex but it doesn't have to. Even if a sexual relationship is involved, it is OK. I'll say that once again - IT IS OK. Does this make you happy now ?
Bottomline, we are not ashamed of mutah because it is a sunnat of our holy prophet (pbuh). You will not find shias defensive about it because it is an act authorized by Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh).
If you have a problem with it, it is not with the shias - it is with the prophet (pbuh). As such, whether you think mutah is valid or not is inconsequential - unless you can prove it that the holy prophet (pbuh) banned it during his lifetime.
Umar bin Khattab was known to disagree with the prophet (pbuh) upon many occassions. I guess you are just following the sunnat of Umar.
Which is fine by me brother. Whatever makes you tick.
Rhia, the concern that Faisal has quite astutely grasped is not so much whether Mutah as a Shi'ite tradition is correct or not, but whether it can be applied by Sunnis to their pre-marital or adulterous situations. U see, by stating that the Prophet SAW allowed it (in fact, he neither approved nor forbid it), therefore it is valid, can be easily picked up by our young impressionable Muslim hot-bloods to give free license to their fornication activities. ~(incidentally, I had searched for the meaning of the word "fornication" in a billion Islamic books over a decade, and never found an adequate answer, though adultery is usually explained. Why is this?).
So the concern is more from a Sunni standpoint, that posts like in this thread, can give validity to something we consider a vice. That would indeed be a dangerous thing.. to mix beliefs haphazardly on whim, without understanding where they come from and what constitudes them... don't you agree?
Gandalf - perhaps I am being picky, there is no such thing as the sunnat of Umar (except as the Shi'ites describe it). There is only one Sunnat and that is that of the Prophet SAW. In Islamic fiqh, Sunnat is all statements, actions and implicit acceptances coming from the Prophet SAW, whose intention is legislation, guidance and providing an example. The rest, was rules of Khalifat.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
So the concern is more from a Sunni standpoint, that posts like in this thread, can give validity to something we consider a vice. That would indeed be a dangerous thing.. to mix beliefs haphazardly on whim, without understanding where they come from and what constitudes them... don't you agree?
[/QUOTE]
Sister,
You cannot invalidate the prophet's (pbuh) sunnah because young ppl may use it a "wrong way".
Mutah is a practise authorized by Allah (swt) and his prophet (pbuh). It is not a ****e tradition unless you want to admit that sunnis do not follow the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh).
The sahih hadiths tell us that mutah was authorized by the prophet (pbuh) and practised by the companions. It also tells us who banned it.
As far as knowing the rules and regulations of mutah, just like any islamic law, it is the job of the scholars and parents to instill these teachings to the impressionable.
Imam Ali (as) has said that had it not been for Umar's ban on mutah, no muslim would have commited fornication.
Gandalf, I do not mean to be rude, but if we are to open the debate up to a broader perspective, and include as much of Muhammed SAW's Sunnah in it as possible, which you claim to follow.. perhaps you will explain to me why Taraweeh, the nighty congregation prayers in Ramadan and also an obvious part of Muhammed SAW's Sunnah, are not performed by the Shi'ite sect, and why only the Friday jumah is seen as permissible congregation prayers?
Let us not open the argument to potshots from here and there. That way there is a whole universe to explore. Let us concentrate on sorting out just the issue of Mutah completely and justly.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
Gandalf - perhaps I am being picky, there is no such thing as the sunnat of Umar (except as the Shi'ites describe it).
[/QUOTE]
I was being sarcastic sister.
Thankyou for the definition anyway.