Hey Asif ...do you live near to sonari...singhbhoom
I have got relatives there.
Actually it's my SASURAL
[This message has been edited by devil123 (edited January 25, 2002).]
oh, kabir, ur major grievence is that u did not win a prize in college debate, apparently despite standing ovation from thousands among audience. the fact that thousands gave u a standing ovation shows that they were not communal, so communalism, if any maybe with 3 member committee which gave prize. in fact, given what i have read from u, i dont think u can give a talk worthy of prize. full of rhetoric and passion perhaps, but lacking logic, consistency, coherence.
indian selectors have dropped laxman from ODI team and brought in Mohamad Kaif. Given that Laxman is a record holder for highest individual test score for india, should we conclude that selction board is biased against telugus.
As i see there is ony difference of semantic.In Pakistan even if there is no SECULARISM word there is no policy NOT to admit if competed like Indian muslim do in India ,they will not be admitted in professional colege in Pakistan
ZZ Andhra Akif & all Indians who think Indian muslim are living in Paradise & pakistan hindu christians are in hell.Tell me how secularism means better life fior muslims opf India or ABSENCE OF SECULAR WORD GIVES LESS RIGHT TO HINDU & CHRISTIANS.THE TRUTH of the matter is Pakistani hindus are so communal they could not see a life living with pakiostani muslims for they continue to come to India even when the only major riot happened 54 yrs ago.
I have met hindu & christians from Pakistan from the best institutions of engineering & Medical where they got admission without donation on the basis of marks as all other students.
[This message has been edited by FYI (edited January 26, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by FYI:
As i see there is ony difference of semantic.In Pakistan even if there is no SECULARISM word there is no policy NOT to admit if competed like Indian muslim do in India ,they will not be admitted in professional colege in Pakistan
[/quote]
who told u that such a policy exists in india. most professional colleges give entrance based on entrance tests or +marks, there is no way to know religion, e.g. to an examiner whjo decides iof someone sjould be admitted in IIT (BTW, geting in IITs is tougher than getting in many US univ. even with full sholarship. Many of my friends are in US univ. Some of them Ph.d now. They cant imagine getting in IITs). Azim Premji is IIT student. Muslims do poorly since not many of them r educated and madarassa education does not help u to compete for IIT exams.
ZZ
DONT TALK ABOUT DIFFICULTY FACTOR AS BEING INDICATOR OF QUALITY,ITS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET INTO 1st.CLASS BOGEY OF A TRAIN IN INDIA THAN RIDE A CITY BUS IN CHICAGO !!!IN INDIA IT IS 1in 1000 CHANCE OF ADMISSION TO K.G.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
IT IS B/C YOU HAVE DARN 1 BN PEOPLE NOT THAT THEY ARE ANY MORE THAN CODE COOLIE EVEN THE THE ph.D. ONE THAT YOU TALK OF & I KNOW THEM
AND WHO TOLD YOU THAT CHRISTIANS & HINDUS IN PAKISTAN DONT GET ADMISSION IN PAKISTAN
EVERYTHING THAT INDIA DOES UNDER THE NAME OF SECULARISM PAKISTAN ALREADY PROVIDES. TELL ME WHAT HINDUS & CHRISTIANS IN PAKISTAN CANT DO IN PAKISTAN OR MORE THAN INDIAN MUSLIMS.NOW SPL AFTER REMOVAL OF THE ELECTORATE SYSTEM OF RESERVED SEATS OF MLA & M.P
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
PASKISTAN IS JUST AS SECULAR AS INDIA EVEN MORE CONSIDERING OCCUPATION OF KASHMIR
Kabir,
I never faced any descriminition in my personal life just becoz I was muslim.
I one to a school where I was only one muslim in a class for 70 guys and I was the topper in my class.Teachers and my freinds always loved me.Infect during Job in India I was only muslim guy in my office and was respected very well.
Typical problem of Mulsim like you in India is that they tend to blame every shortcomings of theirs to Hindu majority ,which is not true. We need to look inside and find out whats wrong.There night be stary cases of descriminition but dear these descriminition are based on even caste,languages etc also.Its not that its against muslims only. So stop blaming others for this and get your acts together.
yes there were some shamefull moment like demolition of babri Masjid and Bombay Riots.
but more than muslim secular hindus are fighting against these forces. Imagine same situation happening in other muslim countries where 80% of populations was Muslim and 12% Hindu and instead of Mosque it was Temple
Just look how Hindu population has gone down in Pakistan. It was
42% in 1921
17% in 1948
less than 2% in 1995
. We have a great secular fibe in India and its pluralistic cosiety is very tolerant and yet its taking its time to mature.Society in USA was not the same as it is today after 5o yrs of independence...IOt took them 200 years to come to where they r today.
and
Dear FYI,
you cannot imagine how high is the standards of IITs or other premier institutes in India.
moroever I heard in whole of pakistan they dont even have an Masters in Engineering program,forget about Ph.D.
what Indians study in their 12th class most of US university dont even teach those stuff in their bachelors courses.
Jiyo Aur Jeene Do!!!
[This message has been edited by andha_qanoon (edited January 27, 2002).]
Andhra.
kabir is discussing the prob of muslims who are living in india, and you want to stop him just giving some biased stories of pakistan. I read many of your posts. And you always refrenced these things. MQM, jai hind, ahmadis, ppl who are living in Punjab.
sometimes against islam. (some of your tinkings)you will look like stone age ppl. once kaba contained idols. if it is not allowed to remove hair by using a metal, muslims can use stone, and you always use this icone
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
.
you know when you was talking about most sacred place in the world you used this icon
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
. when I read your question about kaba their were tears in my eyes. I stand up and prayed for the world. ppl gather their for benefit of mankind but you did not leave even that place.(I thought about the feelings of those ppl who are living there)
In this thread you simply refrenced to two stories of awkward ppl. I wanna told you we can find millions of these kind of stories among hindus. millions of stories how a female give her life when her husband died. why there is always a male child with a young hindu couple.
Mr. Andhra I am very sorry about above paragraph. I know this will made you angry. lekin mein nay yah isliye likha kay shayed kabhi tum insaniyat kay baray mein socho. shayed kabhi tum socho.
may god bless all of us.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited January 27, 2002).]
crux of matter seems that u seem to be worried about andhra’s querry on kaba. what is wrong? what happened to idols in kaba? did prophet mohammad not offend the sensitivity of people who worshipped those idols by breaking them. if he was against idol worshipping, he should have convinced them to stop worshipping idols. in stead, he used force. or feelings are hurt only if mosque (even if it was built by destroying idols, e.g. kaba or babri mosque) is destroyed, but idols can be destroyed at will. is it that way?
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited January 27, 2002).]
Let's not divert the topic. FYI it is very easy for Pakistan or Afghanistan or Saudi to claim they are secular and minorities are trated well because MINORITIES ARE INSIGNIFICANT in these countries.
Just try to have a significant minority like India or US or UK and try to deal with it in a civilized way and you will find out.
Pakistan's solution for all these issues is to Convert or send them out.
Pls don’t make me laugh …comparing Indian education system with Pakistan.
and talking about IIT..IITians are the best on earth..
But you won’t understand..cause you need to come down from the tree to understnad it…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
i hope we are talking about schools not madarsaas…if it’s about madersaas, then you win man…Congrats…
It seems Devil,Asif and me have jamshedpur conection... strange !!!
contact me in PM guys !!!!
Jiyo Aur Jeene Do!!!
this question was addressed to indian muslims whether they have faced discrimination because they are muslims in india but unfortunately there was no decent debate on the subject some pro rss and shiv sena indians tried to divert from the subject and asif seem to have never faced any discrimnation. iam happy for him may be it does not exit in that part of india where he lives but ask people like me the average indian muslim who lives in places like bombay who has faced mobs, who has seen police shooting at muslim school chilren and you will get the real picture
asif bhai the fact is that muslims do face discrimnation in some form or the other in thier lives and to ignore this fact is like seeing a redd herring
or may be you are one of those muslims like "sikandar bakt" and "naqvi"
ZZ,
all your statements tell that you have a lack of knowledge of Islam and religions. without any evidence you are criticizing about prophets.
#1. hindus are not only ppl in world who worship idols. before christianity came to europe, these ppl were worshippers of idols.
#2. I said there were tears in my eyes. there were tears in my eyes, coz I thought what will happen with world, and will humans survive?
#3. kaaba was built by hazarat ibrahim and his son Isamel. after thousands of years some ppl put idols there . In religion forum I have already given a list of all religions of arabia before islam. here again.
The State of Religion in Pre-Islamic Arabia
The period in the Arabian history which preceded the birth of Islam is known as the Times of Ignorance. Judging by the beliefs and the practices of the pagan Arabs, it appears that it was a most appropriate name. The Arabs were the devotees of a variety of “religions” which can be classified into the following categories.
-
Idol-worshippers or polytheists. Most of the Arabs were idolaters. They worshipped numerous idols and each tribe had its own idol or idols and fetishes. They had turned the Kaaba in Makkah, which according to tradition, had been built by the Prophet Abraham and his son, Ismael, and was dedicated by them to the service of One God, into a heathen pantheon housing 360 idols of stone and wood.
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Atheists This group was composed of the materialists and believed that the world was eternal.
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Zindiqs They were influenced by the Persian doctrine of dualism in nature. They believed that there were two gods representing the twin forces of good and evil or light and darkness, and both were locked up in an unending struggle for supremacy.
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Sabines. They worshipped the stars.
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Jews When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and drove the Jews out of Palestine and Syria, many of them found new homes in Hijaz in Arabia. Under their influence, many Arabs also became converts to Judaism. Their strong centers were the towns of Yathrib, Khayber, Fadak and Umm-ul-Qura.
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Christians. The Romans had converted the north Arabian tribe of Ghassan to Christianity. Some clans of Ghassan had migrated to and had settled in Hijaz. In the south, there were many Christians in Yemen where the creed was originally brought by the Ethiopian invaders. Their strong center was the town of Najran.
-
Monotheists There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group.
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/3.htm
there is only one place in the world where ppl never worshipped idols that place is palestine. all other part of the world including America, australia, europe, russia worshipped idols. all religions were different from the others.
note. I don’t want to talk about religion here but it is necessary to make your statement clear.
soon will reply zz's quote with details.
[quote]
Originally posted by kabir:
asif seem to have never faced any discrimnation.
[/quote]
Kabir Bhai, I dont blame others for my problems, I can tell you a number of Indians (other than me) who dont think they were descriminated. If I didnt win anything or wasn't selected in IITs - It was simply because I wasn't good enough and not because I was a Muslim. You think it had anything to do with you being a Muslim then please continue to do so.
[quote]
the average indian muslim who lives in places like bombay who has faced mobs, who has seen police shooting at muslim school chilren and you will get the real picture
[/quote]
Is that the type of Descrimination you are talking about ?? If you read my mails - I always said that In Bombay Police has been Pro Shiv Sena. I have lived in Mumbai for 3 years in Santacruz west and when there was a Bombblast one of our hindu friends was first one who came to help us and do you know who conducted those Blasts ?? Your Hero Dawood Bhai.
[quote]
or may be you are one of those muslims like "sikandar bakt" and "naqvi"
[/quote]
Do you have any problem with that ??
Devil Bhai I know Sonari - Say hello to your Wife..It is really nice to hear from someone from Jamshedpur.
Andha Bhai ?? Where in Jamshedpur ?
AK
can anyone say poor muslim's and dalits life
have changed before during after mughal rule?
Asif_K bhai, glad you pointed out about non-discrimination where education is concerned.
You are right. I am a Hindu and I never did manage to get into IITs. Is it because I am a Brahmin or what?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
Kabir you should do better than this. Show me when
- Show me one single instance of Muslims being denied a chance ‘LEGALLY’ just because they are Muslims.
2.Show me one single instance of a business/ Government organization saying they don’t want to employ Muslims.
Since you live in Bombay take a look at newspapers and see how many Gulf employers openly ask for Muslims for Gulf jobs.
What if Hindus and Sikhs and Parsis and Jain decide to follow them?
The proper medicine for people like you is for the rest of the communities in India to behave like Arabs.
Don’t worry it ain’t going to happen because there many good Muslims like Asif_K in India.
I agree like Asif_K does that Indian Muslims have a lot of problems. Some of them their fault and some of them not. Just like Hindus!!
If you want to take a Hindu/ Muslim appraoch to India’s problems I am sorry to inform you you are too late. THe approach is already taken and Pakistan is the result. So you are welcome to pack your bags and go there!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
Since you live in Bombay take a look at newspapers and see how many Gulf employers openly ask for Muslims for Gulf jobs.
[/quote]
It is ironic that people like Kabir Bhai talk so much of descrimination against Indian Muslims by Hindus, However they wont say a word about the treatment we Indian and Pakistani Muslims get in the Gulf by our own Muslim Brothers. He has no objections to being called as 'Miskeen' or 'Rafeeque'.
AK
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
can anyone say poor muslim's and dalits life
have changed before during after mughal rule?
[/quote]
Rvikz, Mughal era is one of the golden periods of Indian History. What do mean by saying that, Most of the Mughal kings were very Secular and good to Hindus. They were 1000 times better than your RSS/Shiv Sena Hawks.
To know about Muslims condition pre-post and during mughal era you need to study History. Problem of Dalit's is a problem of Hindu Society which really need a Big Stick so that they stop all those stupid things against fellow human beings.
AK
Asif_K bhai,
What the heck is ‘Miskeen’,‘Rafeeque’
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As for Pre Moghul, post Moghul stuff, I say forget it. MOghuls are dead and gone you know.
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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
I for one am even to willing to forget partition.
Whatever some Muslims might think, Indian Muslims are better off than their brothers in other part of the World.
The most important thing for a community is dignity and self respect.
They don’t get frustrated by Israel every day of their lives like Arab Muslims do.
They don’t get their country broken into two like Pakistani Muslims do.
They don’t have superpowers wasting their country to rubble like Afghans do.