Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
you got it in one. 
i think we have progress guys:clap: it slow but they’re getting there.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Who said that Islam is the property of Shias only. Did Allah mentioned it in Quran or our prophet was a Shia (Naooz Billah). Shias beliefs resembles Israelies beliefs. They also say that Palestine is their property and they are the most perfect persons in the world. They also say that Jesus were also a Jew so do the christians claim.
Here is a detailed study on sects. also about the jewish and christians beliefs.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=185492
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Texan when you talk about Ummul-Mo'mineen Sayyedah Aaysha (Rz) you talk in a rude way. You must know that Allah delaired her as the Mother of all muslims till the judgement day. Respect her as your mother.
And I must tell you, Allah sent some ayah to describe her Modesty. When she was blamed of commiting rape with a sahabi. Allah got so angry on those ones who believed the blame and were against her. He announced punishment for them, 80 koras, will you believe it?
So when you talk about her dont forget the manners. And I already told you how the battle between Sayyedna Ali and Sayyedna Aaysha took place. Allah un la'een munafiqoon ko saza day. Amen.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
a bunch of accusations… not to mention unreferenced… hmm shias believe Jesus waas a jew.. nauzubillah thats the first time I heard that… next time if you have some accusations to make please give references… don’t spread rumors in the name of religon…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Dude why are you getting so upset from me… All I did was quoted the ayat of Quran she disobeyed when she went to war against Hazrat Ali. A.S… just to show Ibn Sadique who was the righteous… and I quoted some other ayats where Prophet P.B.U.H. refer to the wive of Prophet P.B.U.H. in the light of Sahih Bukhari to show you who the hadith referes too… Also what you mentioned about the war of Jamal.. you didn’t give any references… which makes it un authentic… the same way you didn’t give references to some other accusations you made against shias…
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Im’ not sure about the Hadith regarding going to even China to seek knowledge is true or not, but one think I know is that Islam is the religion that encourages people to seek knowledge and educate themselves not only in Islamic studies but also in modern science and technology.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
**Texan Dude ** - There is literally no difference between the term a Muslim and a Momeen. They mean one and the same thing. Momeen means ‘one who believes’ and a Muslim means ‘one who has submitted to Allah (swt). *.
One cannot be a Momeen unless one is a Muslim [submits to Allah (swt)]. Similarly one can only be a Muslim if he/she does not believe in what one is submitting to.
***O you who believe! ** Be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims. * 3:102
But if you [O people!] turn away [from my call], I have not asked you for any reward; my reward is only with Allah, and I have been commanded to be one of al-Muslimin (the Muslims) (10.72).
And who has a better religion than he who **aslama [has become a Muslim] ** (has surrendered himself) to Allah, is a doer of good, and has followed the faith of Abraham, worshipping one God. And Allah took Abraham as a close friend (4.125).
Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do **we submit become Muslims]. ** 2:136
And Abraham enjoined the same on his sons, and so did Jacob [Abraham’s grandson]: “O my sons! Surely Allah has chosen for you the [true] religion, therefore die not except as Muslimun (Muslims)” (2.132).
I am implying nothing, the problem it that you have taken a verse [4:93] out of context and then trying to see what are its implications.
You should be aware that verse [4:93] is irrelevant to battles. It is a verse about an individual committing murder. To try to apply this to a battle situation where a mass of two armies are fighting with each other is unreasonable.
See the verse in context with the two preceding verses 4:91 – 92 (see below)
You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. 4:91
And it does not behove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a covenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. 4:92
*And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement. * 4:93
The above verses inform us about the concept of Qisas dealing with murder, manslaughter and blood money etc.
*Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” * Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, “The most hated persons to Allah are three: (1) A person who deviates from the right conduct, i.e., an evil doer, in the Haram (sanctuaries of Mecca and Medina); (2) a person who seeks that the traditions of the Pre-lslamic Period of Ignorance, should remain in Islam (3) and a person who seeks to shed somebody’s blood without any right.” Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 21
The verse; **“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.” ** [4:93] has nothing to do with war among believers.
You should know that the Quran in for all the ages and surely time will come that the Believers (Muslims) will fight each other either rightly or wrongly.
Now surely you are shocked that I have typed war among the BELIEVERS! Aren’t you?
When it comes to battles between two groups of believers, there is another verse that applies:
*“And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah’s command; then if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably.” * 49:9
I invite you to think about the above verse carefully and see if you can relate it to the verse you mentioned. It is irrelevant. Let me elaborate:
It says: “make peace between them”
Question: If we make peace between them, and they agree to enter peace, then what about those believers who have been killed from the two sides before peace? Can we say that their killers will be doom to hell and we need to do Qisas? Is this practically and logically possible? Is it at all needed to even bother about people who will be doom to hell?
It says: “if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah’s command”
Question: If we believe that the verse you mentioned also applies to battles, then how can we justify this one, where it says fight (i.e. kill) a group of believers (who act wrongfully)?
We need to understand that the cases of murder out of the context of battle fields is very different from the killings in battle fields. We cannot confuse their separate rules and to assume that Allah (swt) is making a same ruling for these extremely different situations is very wrong.
When it comes to battles, all that matters is the intention of individuals in the war and will be judged by Allah (swt) for He know who fought for Islam even when he was in error and who fought for personal glory and benefits. No human being can ascertain the intentions of anyone.
However, when it comes to murders (not in battle fields), the intention itself is not the whole matter, the cases that can lead to murder should be dealt by courts of law rather than by individuals.
Be rest assured that verse “And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.” [4:93] not apply in the situation of Battles of the Camel and Siffin.
You the judgement to Allah (swt) for only He know the inner intentions of anyone and everyone.
I really have no intention of defending anybody just for the sake of it. You are free to attribute hypocrisy to whoever you like. But then your views will be at variance to that of Hz. Ali (ra) and you claim to follow him. To you he is infallible. This shows that you follow your own whims and desires than Hz. Ali (ra).
Hz. Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha
“The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it… [Nahjul Balagah Letter No. 58]
Hz. Ali (ra) has clearly stated that he and his opponents:
1) had common faith in one Allah
2) (believed) in the same Prophet (saw)
3) on the same principles and canons of religion
That is not the sign of Hypocrites.
Are you trying to suggest that you know more and better than Hz. Ali (ra)? If you think that opponents of Hz. Ali (ra) were hypocrites that you are in fact challenging the statement of Hz. Ali (ra)!
Lest I get accused of posting only a part of the letter, those who are interested can read the full letter at the following link. (I have posted only the relevant part).
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Taraweeh and Matam
Narrated 'Urwa: That he was informed by 'Aisha, "Allah’s Apostle went out in the middle of the night and prayed in the mosque and some men prayed behind him. In the morning, the people spoke about it and then a large number of them gathered and prayed behind him (on the second night). In the next morning the people again talked about it and on the third night the mosque was full with a large number of people. Allah’s Apostle came out and the people prayed behind him. On the fourth night the Mosque was overwhelmed with people and could not accommodate them, but the Prophet came out (only) for the morning prayer. When the morning prayer was finished he recited Tashah-hud and (addressing the people) said, “Amma ba’du, your presence was not hidden from me but I was afraid lest the night prayer (Qiyam) should be enjoined on you and you might not be able to carry it on.” So, Allah’s Apostle died and the situation remained like that (i.e. people prayed individually). " Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 32, Number 229
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven.” Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, “Allah’s Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar’s Caliphate.” 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, “I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, ‘In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)’. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka’b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, ‘What an excellent Bid’a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.’ He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night.” Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 32, Number 227
If you notice that the first hadith quoted above confirms that Taraweeh prayer to have been prayed by the Prophet (saw) for few days and the Sahabah (raa) prayed behind him. * On the fourth day or so, he prayed it at home out of fear it may become compulsory on them. From this we conclude it was a “Sunnah” performed by the Messenger (saw).
When the Prophet (saw) died, and legislation is ceased by his death, the reason of the fear is now of non-existence, and his Sunnah has been established.
The second hadith confirms that the Companions (raa) were still praying Taraweeh at the Mosque of The Prophet (saw) in groups, each having its own Imam. Now, you can imagine how difficult it was for the size of the Mosque back then and the number of groups present with each Imam leading with vocal recitation. So Hz. Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) ordered that they all pray behind one Imam instead of multi-Imams.
To understand what Omar said, we need to understand what Bid’ah means. Bid’ah, is something invented in matters of worship that has no precedence. It does not apply to our case, because the Prayer was conducted by the Messenger (saw) himself.
The objection you and the Shia is not on the Taraweeh itself (they should know better) but on the Nafl prayer in group. I have came across a Hadith from their Imam directing the questioner to be silent behind the Imam in Nafl prayer, insha Allah I will attempt to search for it and present it to you.
As for the word Bid’a used by Hz. Umar al Khattab (ra) the following will suffice for explanation (It was sent to me by a very good friend:
The word Bidah as a term of the Islamic literature, implies making an unsubstantiated and unauthorized addition to the corpus of Islam, which is the same as what you have explained as 'innovation in religion'. Keeping this explanation in perspective, it should be clear that, when used as a term, there is no such thing as 'a good bidah’, as no unsubstantiated and unauthorized addition to the corpus of Islam - or an innovation in religion - is even acceptable, let alone ‘good’.
However, in its literal sense, the word ‘Bid`ah’ is used simply to imply ‘beginning’, ‘starting’, ‘initiation’ etc. Used in its literal sense, a number of things may be considered as ‘good’.
In my opinion, the word ‘Bid`ah’, in the referred statement of the second caliph, has been used in its literal sense, rather than as a term.
As for the initiation of the Taraweeh congregation, it is clear that, if required, congregations can be organized for supererogatory prayers. This point is substantiated by some incidents during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Obviously, when it is established that supererogatory prayers can be offered in congregation, then organizing any one or the other supererogatory prayers in a congregation cannot be termed as unauthenticated.
Keeping in mind the above clarification as well as the fact that the Tahajjud prayers were offered quite regularly by the Prophet (pbuh) during his life, we can now easily understand that Omar’s organization of the said supererogatory prayers in a congregation cannot be termed as an unauthenticated addition to the corpus of Islam.
Matam
In your post 94 ( http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3290129&postcount=94 ) you defended the Shia practice of Matam in Muharram saying it is not Bidah.
You could not even see the fallacy of your argument in defending the practice of Matam.
Muslims are required to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and no one else!
Only the Prophet (saw)’s acts are taken to be Sunnah.
Are you trying to tell me that the Shias beat their chest just as Hz. Aisha (ra) did and you are following her Sunnah?
I am giving you links Taraweeh prayers being performed in Haram of Makkah
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ramadan/ - I am sorry that’s the best I could get.
and links to Matam being performed
http://www.shiyat.com/ashura-new.htm
http://www.shianews.com/hi/middle_east/news_id/0000779.php
Honestly let a very neutral person [say a non Muslim] give his/her verdict as to which practice seems to be Islamic, and which one sends chills down his/her spine? Try it out.
You objected that Hz. Umar Al Khattab (ra) has no right to organise the Taraweeh prayers.
Where as you will see no problem with the Ithna’Ashari Shias organizing their religion around Maraja, for the laymen to refer to for their guidance on do’s and don’ts.
Shia Ulemah are given grandiose titles as Ayatalluh (Sign of Allah) and Hujjatullah (Proof of Allah).
How did the Shia manage to organise this way when there were no Marajas, Ayatullahs and Hujjatullahs at the time of the Prophet (saw) and the later imams?
At least we, Sunnis have binding evidence that the Prophet (saw) did perform Taraweeh prayers even if for three days. This is the basis of us praying the Taraweeh.*
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
First and foremost Hz. Ali (ra) is a very pious, among one of the most eminent Companions (raa) of the Prophet (saw). He is one of the rightly guided Khaleefs. Books have been written to highlight his greatness by the Sunni scholars.
Loving Hz. Ali (ra) doesn’t mean attributing infallibility to him and take him to be the sole inheritor of Islam from the Prophet (saw). Everything should be done in proportion and that includes loving Hz. Ali (ra).
It is a fact that there was a civil war during his khilafat. He did fight his opponents to stop their rebellion. All acknowledge the rightness of Hz. Ali (ra)’s claim and there is no doubt about it.
In this civil war Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp did kill their opponents [the opponents did likewise].
Hz. Ali (ra) did acknowledge his opponents as believers. You seem to have problem with this and I don’t.
Read the letter 58 of Nahjul Balagha again *
Hz. Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha “The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it… [Nahjul Balagah Letter No. 58]
It is dangerous if loving Hz. Ali (ra) means the following:
Ali’s Rank is as Same as the Prophet’s
My father (d) related to us from Abdullah bin al-Hussein al-Mueddib from Ahmed bin Ali al-Isfahani from Mohammed bin Aslam at-Tusi from Abu Rajaa from Hemmad bin Zaid from Abdirrahman as-Sarraj from Nafii that Ibn Omar said:
When we asked him about Ali bin Abi Talib, the Prophet (s) was angry and said: Why do some people mention that one whose rank in the sight of Allah is as same as mine?1 He who loves Ali loves me, and Allah will accept him who loves me, and whomever Allah accepts will be rewarded with Paradise.
Whoever loves Ali will not depart this world before he drinks from the Divine River of Kawthar, eats from the Divine Tree of Tuba, and sees his place in Paradise.
You can read more at the following link. It is a Shia website
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
[QUOTE]
Question 4.
If someone recites a Kalema and becomes a muslim for personal interests Is he also considered a believer and does the ayats you quoted above apply him also.
[/QUOTE]
The Prophet (saw) said: Actions are only by intention, and every man shall only have what he intended. Thus he whose emigration (hijrah) was for Allah and was for Allah and His Messenger, his emigration was for Allah and His Messenger, and he whose emigration was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his emigration was for that for which he made emigration - Al-Bukhari and Muslim
I think the following 2 hadiths should answer your questions.
It is narrated on the authority of Miqdad b. Aswad that he said. Messenger of Allah, you just see (here is a point) : If I encountered a person amongst the infidels (in the battlefield) and he attacked me and struck me and cut off one of my hands with the sword. Then he (in order to protect himself from me) took shelter of a tree and said: I become Muslim for Allah's sake. Messenger of Allah, can I kill him after he had uttered this? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not kill him. I (the narrator) said: Messenger of Allah , he cut off my hand and uttered this after amputating it; should I then kill him? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Don't kill him , for I you kill him, verily he would be in a position where you had been before killing him and verily you would be in a position where he had been before uttering (kalima). Sahih Muslim: Chapter 42 Book 1, Number 0173
It is narrated on the authority of Usama b. Zaid that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat of Juhaina in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: There is no god but Allah, I attacked him with a spear. It once occurred to me and I talked about it to the Apostle (may peace be upon him). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him? I said: Messenger of Allah, he made a profession of it out of the fear of the weapon. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: *Did you tear his heart in order to find out whether it had professed or not * ? And he went on repeating it to me till I wished I had embraced Islam that day. Sa'd said: By Allah, I would never kill any Muslim so long as a person with a heavy belly, i.e., Usama, would not kill. Upon this a person remarked: Did Allah not say this: And fight them until there is no more mischief and religion is wholly for Allah ? Sa'd said: We fought so that there should be no mischief, but you and your companions wish to fight so that there should be mischief. Sahih Muslim: Chapter 42 Book 1, Number 0176:
No human can know what the other conceals in his/her heart. If one claims to be a Muslim and acts and behaves like one then we take him/her to be a Muslim unless his/her beliefs/actions/sayings are contrary to Islam.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
[QUOTE]
Question 5.
You yourself claims that some of the Sunni Imams like Hanafi and Maliki were the students of Shia Imams.... it sure shows the knowledge shia Imams possessed.... not to mention the teaching of none Imam is different from other.. unlike sunni... who rather chose to get knowledge from the student than the teacher itself... no wonder there are differences in four Imams... but anywayzz Ok sunni so called Imams had to bow to shia Imams to seek knowledge.. can you tell me whee does te knowledge for shia Imams came from????????? hmm aren't you the one who doubt them being ifallable....
[/QUOTE]
Apparently you failed to notice that I had used inverted commas on the words Shia imams as follows ‘Shia Imams’.
The Sunnis take your imams to be on the path of Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Your imams lived among the Sunnis and inter acted with them and were source of guidance and knowledge. And were looked upon with great respect.
It is on record that Imam Abu Hanifah (rahimullah) and Imam Malik (rahimullah) were one time students of Imam Muhammad al Baqir (rahimullah) and Imam Jaffar As Sadiq (rahimullah). Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik also studied from other very prominent Ulemah of the time likes of Ibrahim an-Nakha'I, Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman and many others (raa).
Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik become great fiqhs of Islam and writing great books on Fiqah.
None of so-called Shia Imams wrote any book on Fiqh or otherwise.
None of the Shia scholars of repute have studied under the auspices of ‘their imams’ [please take not of the inverted commas]
Name
4) Ali bin Hussein ...............D. O. Birth 36H - -----D. O. Death 95H
5) Muhammad Al Baqir .......D. O. Birth 57H - ------D. O. Death 114H
6) Jaffar As- Sadiq ............D. O. Birth 83H - -------D. O. Death 148H
7) Musa Al- Khadim ............D. O. Birth 128H -------D. O. Death 183H
8) Ali Al Rida .......................D. O. Birth 148H - -----D. O. Death 203H
9) Muhammad Al Jawad .....D. O. Birth 190H ------D. O. Death 220H
10) Ali Al- Haadi .................D. O. Birth 212H - ----D. O. Death 254H
11) Al Hassan Al- Askahri ..D. O. Birth 232H - ----D. O. Death 260H
12) Muhammad Al- Mahdi ....D. O. Birth 255H According to the Shia still Alive
Sunni Scholars
Abu Hanifah .....................D. O. Birth - 80H -- D. O. Death ----150H
Imam Malik .......................D. O. Birth - 93H----D. O. Death-----179H
Imam Shafi .......................D. O. Birth - 150H---D. O. Death-----204H
Imam Hanbal ....................D. O. Birth - 166H---D. O. Death---- 241H
Imam Bukhari ...................D. O. Birth - 194H---D. O. Death---- 256H
Imam Muslim.....................D. O. Birth - 202H--D. O. Death -----261H
Imam Abu Dawud..............D. O. Birth - 202H--D. O. Death----- 275H
Shia Scholars
- Al-Kafi: Abu Jaffar Muhammad Bin Yaqoob Al-Kulayni. Died 339 Hijri
- Man la Yahdaruhul Faqih: Abu Jaffar Muhammad Ali Qumi. Died 381 Hijri
- Al-Istabsar: Abu Jaffar Muhammad Bin Al-Hassan Tusi. Died 460 Hijri
- Tehzeeb-ul-Ahkaam: Abu Jaffar Muhammad Bin Al-Hassan Tusi.
The data above clearly shows that the ‘Sunni Ulemah’ were contemporaries of the “Shia Imams”; where as the Shia scholars of hadith and Fiqh were not.
None of the Shia scholars had the privilege of getting any knowledge from their imams.
I have answered your questions to the best of my ability and sincerity.
As I see no point in going on and on in circles to discuss the same issues I will dismiss myself form this debate.
As this is your thread it should be your privilege to have the last say, may be claim a victory of sort.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
A whole course of history… which doesn’t even answer my quesiton.. good job buddy.. you spend hours… coming up with stuff.. and yet you ignored the whole question… Oh I wonder why… may be to hard for you ain’t it buddy… you yourself claimed that mashallah shia imams were the source of guidance..not to mention your so called Imam have been there students… and god knows went through the trouble of giving dates and stuff and yet ignored the main question… who were there teachers.. you doubt on their infallibility.. and still claim them to be the teachers of your imams … and infact went as far as saying the following
None of the Shia scholars of repute have studied under the auspices of ‘**their imams’ **
and still you doubt on their infallibility and when asked all you have is to beat around the bush.. Good Job with this long post.. thats all out of context.. may be next time you have something to say.. that actually answers the questions asked than just beating around the bush
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Asalaamu Alaikum all!
hope you are all well. subhan-Allah this a loooong discussion i hav seen. could sum1 jus giv me a round up of what is happenin rather than me having to read alllll of it. i can then giv my opinions on these issues. JK
btw the hadith abt aquiring knoweldge even if its frm china? up to the part where china is, is fine the end is fabricated. so no mate it doesnt CHINA!
insha-Allah brothers n sisters fill me in.
Wasalaamu Alaikum!
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
In regards on your post that you called Taraweeh and Matam.. you swet on it so much beating around the bush.. even dragged matam in it to come up with a long post and yet coudln’t come up with a convincing argument.. dude the question was simple… if taraweeh was practiced during the Prophet P.B.U.H. and umar just combined different jamats to one.. why is he calling it a Bidah.. is he trying to mislead others by calling a practice started by Prophet P.B.U.H. a bidah… how hard is it too answer… but oh… someone needs to beat around the bush to come up with excuses… why am I not suprised.. i read in some sunni website where they were claiming debating on the rakat of Taraweeh… and someone mentioned a hadith on 20 some rakats because thats how Umar introduced it.. I’ll try to look for it and send it to you later…
A couple of things to notice here the hadith talks about the prayer performed in the middle of night… and is referred as night prayer (Namaz -e- Shab) are you sure its referring to taraweeh and not Namaz-e-Tahajud ( Prayer recited at the middle of the night) the reason I am asking is because the context to me seems to fit more of Namaz-e- Tahajud than taraweeh..not to mention taraweeh is not mentioned any where…
OK lets read the first path of the hadith… its talking about praying during ramzan.. but no where mentions about taraweeh…secondly it states that it was a prayer performed individually not in congregation.. why did Umar felt a need to start a congregation on a prayer which was being performed individually Islam was perfect in the time of Prophet and in the light of Quran… thirdly.. as you claim that it was a practice of Prophet why did Umar claimed it as an EXCELLENT bidah… when all the did was combined some people praying individually in a congregation.. THAT WAS MY ACTUAL QUESITON TO START WITH
first I won’t drag Hazrat Ali A.S. without any proper references… secondly the first thing doesn’t confirm anything about Taraweeh… it doesn’t mention the name of taraweehl…infact refers it as night prayer… which makes me doubt if its referring to namaz-e-Tahajud…
Not to mentioned the hadith also quotes that Prophet stopped the congregation… for no matter what was the reason Prophet stopped… the fact that Prophet stopped the thing… Umar had no right to start something he stopped… claiming Prophet P.B.U.H. have died and quran itself testified in the life of Prophet… that islam is perfect it doesnot make sense why you want to reinvent stuff… your response is just lame…
I’ll be back with responses to your other queries later…*
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Just for the sake of the argument... lets say if the prayer referred as "Night Prayer" which is prayed after the mid night is not namaz-e-tahajud or Namaz-e-Shab and instead as you might claim is Taraweeh... I have a sixth question for you .. and would really appreciate if you could enlighten us with your knowledge on the subject.
Question 6.
Please Correct me if I am wrong.. but sunni sect is also a believer that Quran was completed after the death of Prophet, and the ayat of perfection on islam came right close to the death of Prophet after he PBUH performed his last Hajj.... than what did people used to recite as taraweeh.. I mean Quran wasn't completed until a little before the death of Prophet... and was compiled after the death of Prophet..did people than used to recite bit and pieces individually... I am just curious because i thought taraweeh is about reciting the whole quran in forms of prayers... and I wonder what was used by these individual people to recite taraweeh.. did everyone had a copy of whole quran during the life of Prophet even though it was compiled after his PBUH death????
Your feedback would be really appreciated
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
lol the above shows your struggle.. while you were having hard time defending your own so called excellent bidah by Umar you tried to drag matam in… following your old game if you can’t defend your believes try to mud sling the other… and this time by trying to come up with another lame excuse… caling matam a bidat… h ad you read by posts dude… claiming that muslims are supposed to follow the sunnah of Prophet.. and I am guessing you are trying to say .. what Ayesha did after the death of Prophet P.B.U.H. was also a bidat… incase you didn’t notice in your motto to slander shiasm to defend taraweeh.. you falied to notice the hadith quoted earlier where Hazrat Bilal beated himself during the time of Prophet P.B.U.H. and no companions nor Prophet P.B.U.H. stopped him… similarly if you would go back and read my replies I also quoted an incident where a sahabhi of Prophet broke his teeth in the love of Prophet when he found prophet teeth got broken in the battle of Ohad.. did Prophet comdened the act.. incase you don’t remember but just to refresh.. aren’t you the one who said these kind of acts are natural… but oh well… dude I would appreciate.. rather than going in the game of circles… if next time you actually go through the trouble of answering the questions asked rather than coming up with excuses…
Also… I would appreciate if you could answer qeustion # 6 thats if you have an answer please don’t go on with your usual game of coming up with excuses or your usual game of circles.. like outta no where you came up with a post of mine already answered just so you can go by the question asked…
will reply to your other queries later
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
Teaxn_dude, it will be one thing if you did matam in honor of prophet:saw: and defended it with the above argument, but, you do matam for some one else…yes I used someone else because “they” were not and never will be at the same level of prophet:saw:. So chew on this for a while and stay out of the heat in texas summer…it tends to get hot here in summer.
Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah
lol dude !.. and who said shias don’t do matam for Prophet P.B.U.H… the tragic day we lost Rehmatul lil Alameen… the same way we show our love for Prophet P.B.U.H. by doing matam .. the same way some of his companions did …the same way we do it for Imam Hussain A.S. to show our love for the Ahleybait of Prophet P.B.U.H. no we are not equating Imam Hussain A.S with Prophet…here is an ayat of Quran for the love of Ahleybait…
[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.
[Yusufali 42:23] That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: “No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin.” And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).
[Pickthal 42:23] This it is which Allah announceth unto His bondmen who believe and do good works. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee therefor, save lovingkindness among kinsfolk. And whoso scoreth a good deed We add unto its good for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Responsive.
Read what your Sahih books have to say about the relatives closes to Prophet P.B.U.H.
**Tradition Anas ibn Malik Narrated:
**When Allah’s Messenger (PBUH&HF) was asked which member of his family was dearest to him, he replied, “Al-Hasan and al-Husain.” He used to say to Fatimah, “Call my two sons to me,” and then would sniff and cuddle them.
Sunni References:
- Sahih Tirmidhi, per:
Also there is a following hadith of Prophet P.B.U.H. in praise of Imam Hussain A.S.
**Tradition The Messenger of Allah said: “Husain is from me and I am from Husain.”
**Sunni references:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p172
- Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p772, Tradition (3) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p 177
- Amali, by Abu Nu’aym al-Isbahani, p 64
- al-Kuna wal Asmaa, by al-Dulabi, v1, p88
val-Tabarani, v3, p21 - Adab by al-Bukhari, also al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, as quoted in:
-al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 3, p291 - Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition
Read what your Sahih books have to say about Ahleybait
**Tradition Abu Huraira narrated:
The Prophet (PBUH) looked toward Ali, Hasan, Husain, and Fatimah (AS), and then said: “I am in war with those who will fight you, and in peace with those who are peaceful to you.”
**Sunni references:
- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699
Please verify and let me know if any of the references are not correct.
May Allah protect users from any errors within