A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

@Texan_Dude

Ibn Sadique…

The website you quoted for the letter of Hazrat Ali A.S. explains the whole letter at the top… you can’t twist the arguments… Incase you missed that part let me quote it for you again…

The following is a letter to Mu’awiya and in it Imam Ali (a) has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali (a) in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali (a) his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him. ]

All Hazrat Ali A.S. is did was he wrote a letter to justify that his khilafat based on how the previous three khaleefa’s were selected. Let me quote you part by part

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me

And thats how I comprehend it.
.

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected** became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.**

**Texan Dude ** Do you notice that how studiously you and the piece you have quoted above from the website went to some lengths to avoid pointing out that Hz. Ali (ra) deemed the election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra) was as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

If that election was as per approval and pleasure of Allah, do you sincerely think Hz. Ali (ra) was not happy with it? And thought that he was rightful successor to the Prophet (saw) in spite of what had the approval and pleasure of Allah (swt)?

Hz.Ali (ra) has clearly stated that the election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra) was as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

Forget about Hz. Muawiyah (ra) and the rest, just stick to what Hz Ali (ra) has said about the election of his three predecessors [May Allah (swt) be pleased them].

@Texan_Dude

It simply states the same people who elected the first two khaleefa’s elected Maula Ali A.S. and similarly like there were people like Hazrat Ali A.S. himself who preferred to attend the funeral services of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. unlike some people to whom greed for khilafat was more important than attending the actual funeral of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H and like the people who wern’t there at that time wern’t given right to oppose the election… based on that ideology Mawiya had no right to oppose Hazrat Ali after he became khaleefa…

…And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars…
Isn’t that the ideology used for caliphs selection before him… He is using the same ideology that was setup by you people to justify the first 3 caliphs to justify his khilafat… but isn’t it amazing… even though Hazrat Ali A.S. was selected in the same manner and Mawiya who raised voice againsn’t the Ameer ul Momineen is also known as Ameer ul Momineen.. its amazing how messed up you lost souls are.

Dude the thing speaks for itself.. and shows flaws in your own believes… I wonder why are you having such a hard time understanding it… had you read the summary of the letter you won’t have had a hard time understanding it… the same way you are using a letter from our books to justify your ideologies and I try to quote stuff from your books.

If you read the same sermon in Arabic you will be amazed to learn that the word **‘Supposed to be’ ** is not what Hz. uttered but has been deviously inserted into the translations to enhance the Shia argument.

I have a copy of Nahjul Balagha right in front of me and surprise, surprise, it has not got the word **‘supposed to be’ ** in the translation.

I have typed the translation for you and have the book reference. The translation has been done by Mr. Sayed Ali Reda.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr,’Umar and Uthman have sworn to me on the same basis they swore allegiance to them. [On this basis] he who was present has no choice (to reconsider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the Muhajirun and the Ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be a Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah’s pleasure. If anyone keeps away by the way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O’ Muawiyah, if you see with you brain without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of ‘Uthman’s blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion form him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you. Then you may commit an outrage [on me] as you like and that is an end to the matter.

Nahjul Balagha Tahrike Tarsile Quran, Inc. Publishers and Distributors of Holy Quran P.O. Box 1115, Elmhurst, New York 11373.

4th Revised Edition 1985 Library of Congress Catalog. Number 84-051778

@Texan_Dude

Ibn Sadique…

Dude if you are curious to get answer ask an Alim… I am not the right person to give references.. I am not an Alim or Scholar… if you need help you can ask at following website www.sistani.org. All I try to say is to the best of my knowledge May Allah protect readers from any errors herein.

**Texan Dude ** – You are quite smart trying to dodge the question, and you and me know why (you were doing so). I was certain that you will never respond to the questions.

In the Quran Allah (swt) has:

a) Praised these stalwarts of Islam
b) Promised them Pardon and Forgiveness
c) Stated that He is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him
d) Promised them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever
e) Deemed them to be successful and triumphant

See the following for references:

1. Migrated from Makkah to Madinah for sake of Islam?

2. Accommodated and helped those who had migrated to Madinah?

Those who believed and left their homes and strove for the cause of Allah, and those who took them in and helped them - these are the believers in truth. For them is pardon, and bountiful provision. - 8:74

*Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant. * - 9:20

*But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives. Such are they for whom are the good things. Such are they who are the successful. * - 9:88

And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph. - 9:100

3. Participated in battle of Badr?

" Those who believe and those who suffered exiles and fought ( and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah, they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah: and Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (2:218)"

Isn’t it the common belief among all the Muslims of whatever persuasion that the people who participated in the Battle of Badr are of the highest rank?

4. And those who gave allegiance under the tree (during the event of Hudaybiyyah)?

Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory; - 48:18

Do still think that these people abandoned or damaged Islam after Prophet’s Demise? If you still do then you are going against the Quran! Bear well in mind that Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bi Affan [May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) are included in the above.

Texan Dude - Earlier in your posts you had quoted the Prophet (saw) from hadith saying:

“Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.”

1. Care to enlighten me in what context he said the above?

2. Is it possible for Hz. Fatimah (ra) to get angry with Hz. Ali (ra) in some circumstances?

Please don’t try to duck the above questions.

Just to recap so that yu don’t miss out anything, I have asked you the following 3 questions:

Q1) If the election of [Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra)] was as per approval and pleasure of Allah, do you sincerely think Hz. Ali (ra) was not happy with it? And thought that he was rightful successor to the Prophet (saw) in spite of what had the approval and pleasure of Allah (swt)?

Q2) “Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.” Care to enlighten me in what context he said the above?

Q3) Is it possible for Hz. Fatimah (ra) to get angry with Hz. Ali (ra) in some circumstances?

You may need help from the following website: www.sistani.org.