A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: A question for fellow guppies on Quran and sunnah

^ Jazakallah khayraan gupguppy - great reply

Texan Dude

To my following statement:

So far you have been just quoting stuff from your own books which have no ‘authority’ for me (and other Muslims) to believe in.

Please quote with references from books that I have faith in their authenticity and trustworthiness.

I got the following reaction from you:

Another LIE to ignore the facts and truth… DUDE ARE YOU TELL me so far I have been posting from my own books… HELLO wake up MR. jhoot bolney keh hadd kardey… YOU ARE LYING ON MY FACE AND ON THE FACE OF OTHER GUPPIES WHO HAVE BEEN READING MY POST… IF YOU ARE HAVING HARD TIME ACCEPTING THE TRUTH… ATLEAST DON’T LIE TO COOK UP EXCUSES.. yeah I did quoted a few of sermons from Najul Balagah… and the only reason I did was because you brought it up… you quoted a sermon and took parts of it and left the other… huh typical off sunnis like you.. and thats the reason i quoted the whole sermon to show you black and white.. incase you have missed the post you replied go and read the hadith’s I have posted they are from your books… boy i donno are you even worth talking… wonder how much more lies you have been saying or have told before…

Sorry the mistake is from my side, I should have phrased it better. [Let’s blame it to the stale coffee that I was drinking.] The sentence should have read as “So far regarding Hz. Ali’s (ra) right to Khilafaat you have been just quoting stuff from your own books which have no ‘authority’ for me (and other Muslims) to believe in.

And this was referring to the following your quotation from Nahjul Balagha

If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it, nor water it at proper time, nor reap any crop from it. The position of these people is that if I ask them to vacate it so that the owner should cultivate it himself and protect it, they say how greedy I am, while if I keep quiet they think I am afraid of death. They should tell me on what occasion did I ever feel afraid, or flew from battle-field for life, whereas every small or big encounter is proof of my bravery and a witness to my daring and courage. He who plays with swords and strikes against hillocks is not afraid of death. I am so familiar with death that even an infant is not so familiar with the breast of its mother. Hark! The reason for my silence is the knowledge that the Prophet has put in my bosom. If I divulge it you would get perplexed and bewildered. Let some days pass and you would know the reason of my inaction, and perceive with your own eyes what sorts of people would appear on this scene under the name of Islam, and what destruction they would bring about. My silence is because this would happen, otherwise it is not silence without reason."

I am aware that you have quoted many hadith form Sunni source and I and others have addressed them to best of our knowledge. You don’t really have to ‘buy’ the answers we dish out to you.

Now back to the Sermon 5 from Nahjul Balagha that you have quoted above (“If had I attempted to pluck the unripe fruit of Caliphate then by this the orchard would have been desolated and I too would have achieved nothing, like these people who cultivate on other’s land but can neither guard it,”)

I had answered it by quoting Letter 6 from Nahjul Balagha for you where Hz.Ali (ra) has clearly stated that the election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra) was as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

Please answer this question; How Hz. can Ali (ra) lay claim to Khilaafat in sermon 5 and then in the letter 6 claim that the election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra) was as per approval and pleasure of Allah?

yeah I did quoted a few of sermons from Najul Balagah… and the only reason I did was because you brought it up… you quoted a sermon and took parts of it and left the other… huh typical off sunnis like you..

Well just to please you I am going to quote the Letter 6 from Nahjul Balagha in full – Tell me if it made any difference to you.

*Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

O Mu’awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandizement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like.*

I had only the relevant part to show that Hz. Ali (ra) considered the election of Hz. Abu Bakr (ra), Hz. Umar (ra) and Hz. Uthman (ra) was as per approval and pleasure of Allah!

I had left ended the quotation with **…………………. ** Showing that there is more of it which as been left out.

@Ibn Sadique

*“Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.”…………………….- * Nahjul Balagha Letter 6

Sorry if you thought that I was up to some tricks.

Texan Dude - I think it would be better if we deal with one issue at a time. We will come to the other issues raised by you once one issue has been discussed and done with. It is difficult to answer all the points raised by you in one post. Even the viewers will get fatigued reading long posts.

I don’t promise that I will to be able to answer all the questions raised by you. There are other very knowledgeable Guppies here who will answer your queries.

My contention about Sermon 5 from Nahjul Balagha is that Hz. Ali never reminded the people he was addressing about his ‘appointment’ as the successor to the Prophet (saw) at Khum Ghadeer.

Wasn’t this the most appropriate time to say what Allah (swt) had ordained the Prophet (saw) to do?

here is one.. you have been sweting on this hadith..and still failed to come up WITH 12 NAMES and not only that you also admitted that not all the caliphs were righteous… Let me quote it the hadith along with references Mr.

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.”

I think I did answer it. Maybe not to your satisfaction.

I had stated that the Prophet (saw) had not named any of the 12 men from Quraish who will govern the affairs of the Ummah. Accept for Imam Mahdi (ra).

If you are implying that these 12 men refers to the 12 Imams of Ithna ‘ashariyah Shias then you are grossly mistaken.

Read the words again. “as long as they are **governed ** by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh."

To govern one must have political authority!

Tell me apart from Hz. Ali (ra) and partially (six months or so) Hz. Hassan bin Ali (ra) which of your 12 Imams (ra) had the political authority.

None. We, Sunnis take them to men of knowledge and great teachers. Apart form Hz. Hussien bin Ali (ra) none of the Shia Imams ‘picked up the sword’ and kept away from politics and devoted their time in pursuit and spreading of Islamic knowledge.

You can read about the Sunni views about ‘Shia Imams’ at the following thread.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=133174&highlight=Shia+Imams

boy i donno are you even worth talking… wonder how much more lies you have been saying or have told before…

This is your thread and if it’s nor worth your while talking to me just say so and I will leave without a whimper.