“Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.”

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
I have issues when someone suggests - What Allah can be or not be and in the manner Ibrahim did and continues to!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Hello hafeez123. I responded in this thread because you tried to misinterpret a hadith and tried to convey that Allah (swt) was 60 cubit in size, whereas that hadith only conveyed Adam (as) was 60 cubit in size.

Let me re quote your own words to PROVE that you are a LIAR and DECEIVER once again for all to see

[quote]
posted August 05, 2002 06:51 AM by hafeez123, In Sahih Muslim, Book 040, Number 6809 ** we read that** ALLAH is 60 cubits tall and so Adam was also 60 cubits (30 meters) tall
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: my reply was to establish that what you wrote was FALSE and I quoted the FULL and accurate texts of Sahih Bukhari 8:246 and explained it to show how you had erred and propagated falsehood by saying we read that hadith to convey Allah (swt) was 60 cubit in height.

** DO YOU DENY THE ABOVE AS YOUR OWN WORDS AND YOUR POST ?????**

[quote]
This exchange got started on page 1 when I posted, in response to the question asked, hadith Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 74, Number 246:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says exactly! Here is where you have fabricated your own hadith when you said ** “ we read that** ALLAH is 60 cubits tall and so Adam was also 60 cubits (30 meters) tall”

Whereas that hadith only conveys Adam is 60 cubits tall , even Pakistani abroad (the devils advocate) tried to correct you with regards to it. But you in your delusion keep insisting you have not erred.

I repeat those hadith in Sahih Muslim (6809) and Sahih Bukhari (8:246) is with regards to Adam (as) being created as Allah (swt) pictured him (Adam ) at which timeframe man was 60 cubits in height and had longer lives than current man.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALLAH (swt) . Only the shaitan will convey that Allah (swt) was 60 cubits hence Adam was also 60 cubits as you have done.

[quote]
I suggest you read Ibrahim's response which starts as:
"For those who may be misled by the suggestions of the shaitan, let me reveal the meanings in this hadith..."
Then he proceeds, like he does in EVERY of his post, to attack Christianity & Hinduism!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Now hafeez123. I want you to show me where I have attacked Christianity or Hinduism in my response to you in this thread????

IF YOU DO NOT SHOW US THE DETAILS< LIKE I SAID YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELF TO BE A LIAR in this thread on your own.

[quote]
I posted the following ** to further substantiate the point that Adam was created by Allah in his image:**

[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hence here you admit that you have been conveying that Allah (swt) is in the image of man, whereas when you get cornered you start claiming Allah is incomprehensible .

WHICH IS WHICH??? Or did my repeated response to you fail to get through to you??? I have quoted 112:4 (7 times so far)
I will say it again since you have ignored it and keep vomiting you follies again and again.

112:4 ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

maybe one more time just in case you brains lacks the ability to digest it

112:4 ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

[quote]
[HQ 15:29] "So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him."
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: STOP lying hafeez123, you did not just say the above but included the under mentioned

** “Allah did make ADAM with his own hand and BREATHED his spirit into him with his owm mouth!”** posted August 08, 2002 05:31 AM by hafeez123

which was NEVER conveyed in that verse but were your own delusions due to your lack of knowledge in understanding the Qur’an

[quote]
and, also this sahih Bukhari: Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227:
We read that "an-Hazoor ascended to the heavens on a** winged white horse with a female face where he met allah.** There an-hazoor negotiated & re-negotiated with Allah the prayers from Fifty daily down to the five prayers."
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Again proving that you are a fabricator since that hadith does not have such details BUT are your own conclusions based on IGNORANCE

[quote]

So, I SHOWED him:

[HQ Saad 38:75]It is not only that He created human being, but He created our father Adam, the first human being, by His own two hands. (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevented you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with My two hands? Are you haughty? or are you one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : which was another fabrication since Verse 38:75 will only read as

38:75 (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with My hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"

Further I explained why the two hands are mentioned in the above verse ( which was meant to be allegorical in nature) as conveyed in verse 3:7 which reads

7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: ** others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord ** and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Ibrahim says Thus Allah (swt) already conveyed that you are a perverse person seeking discord when Allah (swt) had given CLEAR verses which is the foundation of the book and the CLEAR verse says

112:4 ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

Ibrahim says: meaning Allah (swt) is not in the image of man

[quote]
I also provided a HADITH QUDSI that affims the above:
Hadith Qudsi: I have created Adam on my image (ala Surati).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hello hafeez123, I asked you where is the full reference for this hadith ??? And why would a hadith be only so short did you swallow the rest of it in your delusions????

[quote]
This must have shocked because he was unaware of these two verses!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hmmm, where you unable to read my response or do you just snip away all that is beyond your incompetence. ???

[quote]
How does our scholar react? In the following way:
"Now so far, you have on your own proven to all the readers , that
1) you will alter/modify verses as you please
2) you will lie
3) you will deceive "

[/quote]

Ibrahim says Exactly! To this day you have not been able to prove otherwise. All you try to do is try and make more accusations without evidence for them whereas I have provided the evidence which proves that you are a deviant and not a Muslim and in your hatred of Islam, you are trying to claim Allah is in the image of man in one breadth and in another Allah is incomprehensible, thus trying to confuse the readers

BTW. When did I become your scholar?

Now if you just spewed your vomit on your own without trying to point the finger at the Qur’an and hadith, I would have left you to frolic in your own vomit but since you pointed the finger at the Qur’an and hadith I am duty bound to correct you in the hope that others will not be misguided by your foolish statements concerning the Qur'an and hadith.

[quote]
Finally, ======
If Adam was made in Allah's image dosn't make Adam into Allah's equal or his partner? These are ignorant comments!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: so you admit you are an ignorant??? Thank you, at least you are honest here ( even though I am sure you did not mean it that way) since no one has made the above statements except you which you have repeated more than once on your own .

[quote]
** I have no doubt that the motive behind** Ibrahim's telling Allah what he can be or not be is to DISCREDIT the christian belief in their Lord Jesus and/or the hindu belief in manifestations of many FORMS of the One God
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez123, this discussion is between you an me, not with Allah (swt) so come down from the tree and face the facts .

let me see how you could have probably arrived at such a conclusion since you have no doubt about it

I assume this is how you found it out:

1) You used your crystal ball.

2) You used a time machine.

3) You used some hallucinating drugs

4) You were smoking crack.

5) You're insane.

6) You're deranged.

Since the first two are not possible, ** I can only assume ** it is one of the remaining four and I think it's all four actually...

But lets not forget that you have already established that ** you are a deviant ** who denies what Allah (swt) had conveyed about Himself in CLEAR terms.

And most of all that ** you are a LIAR ** who makes accusations which have not been substantiated in this thread.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** If clouds remain in the mind, water will fall from the eyes **

42

I've been reading this thread, trying to understand the Muslim interpretation of God's image. Instead I read spiteful and unreligous posts like the one above. I would expect such trash talking elsewhere, but to find it in a forum where the participants believe themselves to be pious and experts on theology is disgusting. I suggest you spend more time studying the benevolent natures of your religion instead of cursing and belittling those who don't agree with your myopic views.

I actually took the time to copy and paste the hateful comments. At least 16 in one post!

[quote]

  1. you are a LIAR and DECEIVER once again for all to see
  2. LIKE I SAID YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELF TO BE A LIAR
  3. maybe one more time just in case you brains lacks the ability to digest it
  4. Again proving that you are a fabricator
  5. your own conclusions based on IGNORANCE
  6. Thus Allah (swt) already conveyed that you are a perverse person seeking discord when Allah (swt)
  7. where you unable to read my response or do you just snip away all that is beyond your incompetence. ?
  8. which proves that you are a deviant and not a Muslim
  9. just spewed your vomit on your own without trying to point the finger at the Qur’an and hadith, I would have left you to frolic in your own vomit
  10. so you admit you are an ignorant??? Thank you, at least you are honest here
  11. You used some hallucinating drugs
  12. You were smoking crack.
  13. You're insane.
  14. You're deranged.
  15. But lets not forget that you have already established that you are a deviant
  16. And most of all that you are a LIAR

[/quote]

43

Dear all,

When cornered people like Ibrahim will resort to obsenities and profess that - only he knows & speaks the truth!

His only premise in placing LIMITS upon the limitless Allah is geared to the sole purpose of discrediting the christian belief in the trinity or the triune expressions of The Divine Reality or the hindu belief in their manifestations of Avatars of the same Divine Reality!

The insistence that Allah is one is really incoherent unless "Allah is a 30 metre tall form sitting upon a throne in the 7th heaven" (Sahih hadith).

There is only "One-ness" of the Divine Rality and the learned scholars of islam agree to this!

All, but people like Ibrahim!

Considering Ibrahim's rantings in the above postings of his, can he, defend the verse in the quran where it says:
*"Say not three, but One" - Holy Quran *

It is a Direct reference to Trinity.
The Quran is saying - There is no 3 Gods but One God!

The truth is: Christians believe in the TRIUNE expressions of the - One God. They, like the Jews, believe in the One or One-Ness of God - just like the Hindus, the Muslims. Even the pagans believe in the 'One-Ness" of the supreme spirit!

To say the christians believe in three Gods is like saying there are 99 Gods of Islam. They (99 names) are names of the same God and the Trinity is the same - 3 names of the same God!

44

Re: “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.”

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by rvikz: *
**how islam interprets god's image?
does it believe god in likeness to human
attributes?
in hinduism there is a view pertaining
to god's image being "nirguna" which according to
Upanishads refer to the Supreme as "nirguna," it is
indicated that this means He has no material qualities. *
[/QUOTE]

"And God made Man in His own image". This is a quotation from the Bible not the Koran.

45

Hafeez not all Ahadeeth are Sahih, first of all. We can take only those ahadeeth that dont coincide with the Quran, simple as that. Most of the Ahadeeth were compiled after about 200-250 years after the Prophet's (PBUH) death therefore there might be some ambiguities amongst some of them. Bring some similar verse from Quran.

46

Re: Re: “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.”

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tshombe39: *
"And God made Man in His own image".

This is a quotation from the Bible not the Koran.
[/QUOTE]

No, it is not!

Pls refer to my post 08-11-2002 11:31 PM .

[quote]
from zaavia:
"Hafeez not all Ahadeeth are Sahih, first of all. We can take only those ahadeeth that dont coincide with the Quran, simple as that. Most of the Ahadeeth were compiled after about 200-250 years after the Prophet's (PBUH) death therefore there might be some ambiguities amongst some of them. Bring some similar verse from Quran"
[/quote]

Since I am not sure what specific verse you are Referring to:

May i refer you to my post 08-11-2002 11:31 PM ; you will find corelation to the quran!

Scholars like Bukhrai, Muslim, etc have put these hadiths to highest scrutiny(according to scholars) before calling them Sahih Or Authenticated!

The ahl as sunnah wal jammah is based on "How an-hazoor lived the quran" and these are exempified by these books of hadiths!

47

What I know, is that the most authentic book is Quran, Ahadeeth come afterwards, and if there are some ahadeeth that do not comply with Quran, we shouldnt believe them blindly.

48

i dont see anything wrong with praying to jesus on a cross
that is the devotion and love for jesus. and christians have everyright to to do that.koran says dont pray to images that is for mulism only i guess.

49

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*
... defend the verse in the quran where it says:
"Say not three, but One" - Holy Quran

It is a Direct reference to Trinity.
The Quran is saying - There is no 3 Gods but One God!**
[/QUOTE]

Exactly! The Qur'an is telling the Christians that there always has been and always will be One God, so why have you (Christians) split that Godhead into three persons, calling on each one separately? What this verse isn't saying is that the Christian Trinity equals true monotheistic belief in One God.

[QUOTE]
**The truth is: Christians believe in the TRIUNE expressions of the - One God. They, like the Jews, believe in the One or One-Ness of God - just like the Hindus, the Muslims. Even the pagans believe in the 'One-Ness" of the supreme spirit!

To say the christians believe in three Gods is like saying there are 99 Gods of Islam. They (99 names) are names of the same God and the Trinity is the same - 3 names of the same God! **
[/QUOTE]

Bible: For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE. (I John 5:7)

One? Three into One? Yes, 'one' in purpose and objective, but certainly not one in person or in essence. It is important to note that the above verse, which i've taken from the King James Version of the New Testament, is nothing short of a deliberate scribal corruption and in fact represents one of the most obvious theologically motivated interpolations in the entire Biblical tradition. These words are not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 16th century. For this reason, the popular New International Version and the Revised Standard Version of the Bible have withdrawn this verse, often relegating it to a mere footnote (i wonder whether God's original revelation contained footnotes!).

The Trinity is not one god with three names, not at all, rather it signifies the names of three distinct gods. To compare this, therefore, with Allah's 99 Names (in fact Allah has more than 99 Names as one hadith mentions) is absurd. It's like saying that Elvis Aaron Presley, the famous singer, is three different people just because he has three names. The fundamental difference, however, with the three 'persons' of the Trinity is that not only do they have their own names, they also have their own distinct individual personalities and abilities, not shared by the other two. For example, one person of the Trinity doesn't share the same knowledge as another (Matthew 24:36); one member of the Trinity can want something against the will of another (Matthew 26: 39); the witness of one alone is not true (John 5:31); one of the persons is incapable of doing anything on his own (John 5:30); blasphemey against the Holy Spirit is unequalled (Mark 3:28-30). Does this sound like one person, one God? The Trinity, despite all manner of mathematical gymnastics, can never equal 'One'!

The fact that various non-Trinitarian Biblical texts are sometimes cited to show the Oneness of God only goes to prove the large scale theological contradiction that faces Christianity ; something that it has yet to provide a consistent and understandable explanation for.

Iqbal

50

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
*

Exactly! The Qur'an is telling the Christians that there always has been and always will be One God, so why have you (Christians) split that Godhead into three persons, calling on each one separately? What this verse isn't saying is that the Christian Trinity equals true monotheistic belief in One God.

Bible: For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE. (I John 5:7)

One? Three into One? Yes, 'one' in purpose and objective, but certainly not one in person or in essence. It is important to note that the above verse, which i've taken from the King James Version of the New Testament, is nothing short of a deliberate scribal corruption and in fact represents one of the most obvious theologically motivated interpolations in the entire Biblical tradition. These words are not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 16th century. For this reason, the popular New International Version and the Revised Standard Version of the Bible have withdrawn this verse, often relegating it to a mere footnote (i wonder whether God's original revelation contained footnotes!).

The Trinity is not one god with three names, not at all, rather it signifies the names of three distinct gods. To compare this, therefore, with Allah's 99 Names (in fact Allah has more than 99 Names as one hadith mentions) is absurd. It's like saying that Elvis Aaron Presley, the famous singer, is three different people just because he has three names. The fundamental difference, however, with the three 'persons' of the Trinity is that not only do they have their own names, they also have their own distinct individual personalities and abilities, not shared by the other two. For example, one person of the Trinity doesn't share the same knowledge as another (Matthew 24:36); one member of the Trinity can want something against the will of another (Matthew 26: 39); the witness of one alone is not true (John 5:31); one of the persons is incapable of doing anything on his own (John 5:30); blasphemey against the Holy Spirit is unequalled (Mark 3:28-30). Does this sound like one person, one God? The Trinity, despite all manner of mathematical gymnastics, can never equal 'One'!

The fact that various non-Trinitarian Biblical texts are sometimes cited to show the Oneness of God only goes to prove the large scale theological contradiction that faces Christianity ; something that it has yet to provide a consistent and understandable explanation for.

Iqbal **
[/QUOTE]

how do you know or how can you prove your position?
you base it on koran?
i will rather trust a person who says "dont know" which is the real truth

51

[quote]
When cornered people like Ibrahim will resort to obsenities and profess that - only he knows & speaks the truth!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; hafeez123, I have established beyond doubt that YOU are a LIAR and Deceiver in this thread. And I have not seen any answer to my questions except your accusations and spin .

[quote]
His only premise in placing LIMITS upon the limitless Allah is geared to the sole purpose of discrediting the christian belief in the trinity or the triune expressions of The Divine Reality or the hindu belief in their manifestations of Avatars of the same Divine Reality!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez123, Do you not have any shame in you??? All my responses have been geared to address your fabrication of the hadiths and your interpretation and interpolation of the Qur’anic verses that you had quoted .

[quote]
The insistence that Allah is one is really incoherent unless "Allah is a 30 metre tall form sitting upon a throne in the 7th heaven" (Sahih hadith).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: again you are ONLY establishing that you are a liar and hatemonger since you have so far claimed and have been repeating that a hadith says Allah is 30 meter tall, when in fact NO hadith says such a thing and even after repeated requests you have not given the references for the hadith Qudsi you had fabricated on your own.

I HOPE THE Moderators are reading this so that they can ban you for manipulating sacred texts on your own, ** which cannot be allowed at anytime by anyone on any scripture**

[quote]
There is only "One-ness" of the Divine Rality and the learned scholars of islam agree to this! All, but people like Ibrahim!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hmmm.. so again another twist and a new direction???? Running away or has your ability to spin is waning down??? Do you have any honesty in you are you intent to be such an evil Christian all the time??

[quote]
Considering Ibrahim's rantings in the above postings of his, can he, defend the verse in the quran where it says: "Say not three, but One" - Holy Quran

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: FIRST be a human being instead of the shaitan and be honest enough to admit to your errors, failing which it will be an endless run around to nowhere. I go one step at a time. There can be NO disagreement as to what that hadith is conveying so resolve that issue first.

So I will give you one last chance to come clean. Admit that you made a mistake and I will overlook your follies in this thread but continue to insist that hadiths says Allah is 30 meters tall and I will insist I have earned the right to address you as a liar and shaitan from now on. In addition I will link this thread to every post you make in this forum to warn the readers that you are a Christian hatemonger , masquerading like an ahmedia who is here to lie, deceive and defame the Muslims.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!

I cannot be more CLEARER than this.

regards
Ibrahim

** Hafeez123 you have built castles in the Air, now put foundations for them **

52

[quote]
per Iqbal:
"Exactly! The Qur'an is telling the Christians that there always has been and always will be One God, so why have you (Christians) split that Godhead into three persons, calling on each one separately? What this verse isn't saying is that the Christian Trinity equals true monotheistic belief in One God."
[/quote]

Iqbal,
How can anyone break the Godhead?

When Adam was created, God "breathed his spirit into Adam (HQ)"?

When God did this, did He break his Godhead?

If "God is beyond comprehension "[HQ 6:103], then where did you get this bit of information?

[HQ24:35]"Allah is the Light / Spirit of the heavens and the earth...... ....Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things."

IMPORTANT:

According to this verse: Allah is omnipresent; the spirit or light of Allah pervades everything; there is nothing but Allah!

It also says: Allah guides to this Light whom He wishes!

So, How can the Godhead, as you put it, be broken?

Here's the Universal Allah that muslims(not all), christians, jews, hindus, and others can easily RELATE to:

**"The infinite God is the self of God, and all that have been manifested with name and form is the outward aspect of God.

When we take all the existing forms and names and put them together, they become one form.

In other words, all names are the name, and all forms are the form of God, but as God is one, His form also is one; and that is the sum total of all names and forms; there is no thing or being which is not the Being of God. In order to teach this, the wise have said God is everything and in every being."**

[quote]
per Iqbal,
"Bible: For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE. (I John 5:7)

One? Three into One? Yes, 'one' in purpose and objective, but certainly not one in person or in essence."

It is important to note that the above verse, which i've taken from the King James Version of the New Testament, is nothing short of a deliberate scribal corruption and in fact represents one of the most obvious theologically motivated interpolations in the entire Biblical tradition. T

hese words are not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 16th century. For this reason, the popular New International Version and the Revised Standard Version of the Bible have withdrawn this verse, often relegating it to a mere footnote (i wonder whether God's original revelation contained footnotes!). "
[/quote]

Dear Iqbal,

The Bible or the NT is like the Islam's hadiths - words & deeds of Jesus recalled by his disciples!

What kind of a reputation does Bukhari's books of the words & deeds of the prophet has?

If the three forms of the trinity have different job description doesn't make them separate Gods! It can mean that they function under the control of the Father - the supreme Being! That can also explain why Jesus sometimes calls himself "the Father " and is sometimes seen "beseeching the Father in Heaven" or at times, Jesus is "the door to the Father".

They - the forms are of the same Light/Spirit which is the Supreme Being!

Pls refer to the definition of the Universal God listed above !

53

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*
How can anyone break the Godhead?
When Adam was created, God "breathed his spirit into Adam (HQ)"?
When God did this, did He break his Godhead?
**
[/QUOTE]

The suggestion of breaking the Godhead doesn't even come into this verse. You have misconstrued the possessive pronoun his in the Qur'anic verse you have cited. Some people read verses like this (see Qur'an 15:29 & 38:72 for the spirit being breathed into Adam [as]) and imagine that a portion of Allah's 'spirit' detached itself from Him and entered into Prophet Adam (as). Some even use it as evidence that every human being contains within him or herself a part of Allah (see Qur'an 32:9 for the spirit being breathed into embryos whilst in the womb).

Possessive pronouns (my, your, his, our) generally have two meanings which are clearly ascertained by the context in which they are used. Possessive pronouns may describe an attribute or a possession which is or is not a physical part of its owner. Consider the following Qur'anic verse where both examples of the possessive pronoun are used:

"Put your hand inside your shirt and it will come out shining, unharmed..." (20:22)

This verse is addressed to Prophet Musa (as). Both the 'hand' and the 'shirt' belonged to Musa (as) but his hand was an attribute that was obviously a physical part of him whilst his shirt was a possession that was not part of him, it was merely something that he owned.

The 'spirit' being "breathed" into Adam (as) is understood in exactly the same way. The pronoun his in the verse "breathed His spirit into Adam" signifies that the spirit belongs to Allah and is something that He owns, being a part of everything else that He created. So here the pronoun is understood to mean nothing more than possession. It doesn't mean that the 'spirit' was a physical part of Allah which then entered Adam (as). The 'spirit' is subject to Allah's command just like everything else that He created: "They ask you about the spirit, say the spirit is from my Lord's command..." (Qur'an 17:85)

When you read ascriptive constructions like "Allah's House", "Allah's Messenger", "Allah's Book" it doesn't at all mean that the House, the Messenger or the Book are attributes of Allah and are a physical part of Him. Rather these things belong to Allah as part of His dominion. The same is the case when we read "Allah's spirit."

[QUOTE]
[HQ24:35]"Allah is the Light / Spirit of the heavens and the earth...... ....Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things."... According to this verse: Allah is omnipresent; the spirit or light of Allah pervades everything; there is nothing but Allah!
[/QUOTE]

This verse doesn't mention 'spirit' at all, despite your translation. The verse says: "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth..." Furthermore, this entire verse is a parable as clearly evidenced by the last few words. Allah's light here represents His guidance with which He illuminates the hearts of His servants. The verse doesn't say or mean that Allah is made of light.

[QUOTE]
*If the three forms of the trinity have different job description doesn't make them separate Gods!
*
[/QUOTE]

Doesn't it?

[QUOTE]
*It can mean that they function under the control of the Father - the supreme Being!
*
[/QUOTE]

If the Father, who is in control as you say, is the "supreme Being" then it implies that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not supreme Beings and so the Trinity breaks down.

[QUOTE]
*That can also explain why Jesus sometimes calls himself "the Father "
*
[/QUOTE]

Where did Jesus call himself the Father?

Iqbal

54

Iqbal,
When I read this post of yours I said to myself - Should I even bother responding to this because it is filled with over-simplistic, self-indulgent comments and interpretaions about Allah!

The one where you flatly reject that Allah is not the Light or Noor or Spirit took the cake! The comments where you inject possesive pronouns was a close second!

Given such simplistic assumtions, are you really qualified to understand other religions or comment on them?

To do that - you need to enlarge your mind and read the books of others besides the books & indoctrinations of your fanatic scholars!

[quote]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
"The suggestion of breaking the Godhead doesn't even come into this verse."
[/quote]

Iqbal,
I did not raise this issue. You did!

The below is your quote from previous post:

*"The Qur'an is telling the Christians that there always has been and always will be One God, so why have you (Christians) split that Godhead into three persons, calling on each one separately?" *

Iqbal,
The christians believe in the One God; they approach it via three manifestations of the same God!
This does not make the TRINITY into three individual Gods!

You have a very simplistic definition of the Creator or One God or that he is 30 metre tall sitting on a throne in the 7th heaven directly above the kaba. Unfortunately or Fortunately Others do not!

Pls refer to my definition of the UNIVERSAL GOD in my previous post! That will explain many forms and names and how they merge into the One or One-ness of Allah!

[quote]
from Iqbal:
"You have misconstrued the possessive pronoun his in the Qur'anic verse you have cited. Some people read verses like this (see Qur'an 15:29 & 38:72 for the spirit being breathed into Adam [as]) and imagine that a portion of Allah's 'spirit' detached itself from Him and entered into Prophet Adam (as). Some even use it as evidence that every human being contains within him or herself a part of Allah (see Qur'an 32:9 for the spirit being breathed into embryos whilst in the womb).

Possessive pronouns (my, your, his, our) generally have two meanings which are clearly ascertained by the context in which they are used. Possessive pronouns may describe an attribute or a possession which is or is not a physical part of its owner. Consider the following Qur'anic verse where both examples of the possessive pronoun are used"
[/quote]

Iqbal,
The holy quran is clear and easy to read. That doesn't make it easy to implement into practise!

A sunni (myself being from a hanafi family) is commanded to obey it in its literal form, as is the case for the sunnah/hadiths!

Previously you had issue with the translation & import of the verses which says:Allah created Adam in his own image, with his own hands; now, you are grappling with the verse where "Allah breathes his own spirit into him"**

The significance of 'breathing his spirit' to me is that - our soul is from Allah.
"HQ: we are from Allah and to him is our return".

Unless, you claim that we have no soul or have some unique explanation akin to the 30 metre God and the ascension of the prophet to heaven on a winged white horse with a female face ..!

"Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah"

All these comments abour 'detachment' and 'possessive pronouns' and what not is really ridiculous.

[quote]
from Iqbal;
"This verse[24:35] doesn't mention 'spirit' at all, despite your translation. The verse says: "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth..." Furthermore, this entire verse is a parable as clearly evidenced by the last few words. Allah's light here represents His guidance with which He illuminates the hearts of His servants. The verse doesn't say or mean that Allah is made of light."
[/quote]

Iqbal,
So, now according to you - Allah is not light or spirt or nur!
What is it?
- A 30 metre tall allah sitting on a throne in the 7th heaven!

The parable is the middle section of the verse 24:35 highlighted below in italics for your benefit:

[HQ 24.035] "Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The **Parable of His Light* is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit
from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it:*
Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth
set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things."

[HQ 57:3] "He is the first, He is the Last, He is the manifest, and He is the hidden and He is knower of all things.

Allah is without limits. He can be Manifest or remain hidden!

[quote]
from Iqbal:
If the Father, who is in control as you say, is the "supreme Being" then it implies that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not supreme Beings and so the Trinity breaks down.
Where did Jesus call himself the Father?
[/quote]

Iqbal,

The Trinity combined is the One-ness of Allah/God for the christians.
The trinity does not break down unless one is looking for it to break down;
maybe, you have been reading too much criticism about the book of Bukhari on sunnah/hadiths having completely broken down!

There are christains who will have differing interpretations on Trinity just like you have your own unique understanding of Allah which differs from mine!

NOTE:
Could the christians on this board pls correct me if I have erred in my postings about the Trinity!

"Where did Jesus call himself the Father?"
There is a verse which says:
"I am the Father and the Father is in me"

55

I think hafeez123 accurately describes the mainstream Christian view on the trinity.

56

how many of you went up there made census of gods? what is the big deal if hve morethan one or less than one? one is a just number.

57

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
**Iqbal,
When I read this post of yours I said to myself - Should I even bother responding to this*
[/quote]

But you did respond, why?

[quote]
because it is filled with over-simplistic, self-indulgent comments and interpretaions about Allah!
[/quote]

I'm confused, are you referring to my post or yours?

[quote]
The one where you flatly reject that Allah is not the Light or Noor or Spirit took the cake!
[/quote]

I strongly object to you accusing me of taking the cake, I don't remember taking anyone's cake! I don't even like cakes. And by the way, i didn't "flatly reject" anything, i gave "explanations" and "reasons" for what i said, that's not the same as a flat rejection.

[quote]
Given such simplistic assumtions, are you really qualified to understand other religions or comment on them? To do that - you need to enlarge your mind and read the books of others besides the books & indoctrinations of your fanatic scholars!
[/quote]

Now who is the one making "simplistic assumptions"?

[quote]
The christians believe in the One God; they approach it via three manifestations of the same God! This does not make the TRINITY into three individual Gods!
[/quote]

Sorry, what happened to the three job descriptions you were referring to earlier? And you still haven't suitably addressed why one 'manifestation' (to use your term) does not have the same knowledge as one of the other manifestations; why one manifestation can want something against the will of another, and so on.

[quote]
You have a very simplistic definition of the Creator or One God or that he is 30 metre tall sitting on a throne in the 7th heaven directly above the kaba. Unfortunately or Fortunately Others do not!
[/quote]

Still making "simplistic assumptions" i see about what other people might or might not believe.

[quote]
Unless, you claim that we have no soul or have some unique explanation akin to the 30 metre God and the ascension of the prophet to heaven on a winged white horse with a female face ..!
[/quote]

Why should i claim that we have no soul? And what has a "30 metre God" and a "winged white horse with a female face" got to do with anything? Of course, it's clear that your approach is simply to throw as much mud around as you possibly can in the hope that some of it will stick. Not a very academic approach i dare say.

[quote]
"Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah"
[/quote]

Is this a quote? I certainly hope its not another concocted verse (or will you be providing a reference for this one?)

[quote]
*All these comments abour 'detachment' and 'possessive pronouns' and what not is really ridiculous. *
[/quote]

I don't blame you for not understanding, but i do blame your teachers for failing to teach you rudimentary grammar.

[quote]
The parable is the middle section of the verse 24:35 highlighted below in italics for your benefit...
[/quote]

The parable is certainly not the middle section, check your own italics. The English translation of this verse has around 90 words. The mention of the parable starts after the 10th word and continues to the end. Does that sound like the middle to you?

[quote]
There are christains who will have differing interpretations on Trinity just like you have your own unique understanding of Allah which differs from mine!
[/quote]

I think you'll find that it is you that has the "unique" understanding of Allah. Your understanding of Allah doesn't just differ with me, i’d hazard a guess that it differs with most other mainstream Muslims as well. Your on your own with this one my friend.

[quote]
*There is a verse which says:
"I am the Father and the Father is in me" *
[/QUOTE]

No there is not. There is no verse where Jesus says "I am the Father" as you incorrectly quoted in your earlier post and also here again. In fact, the claim that Jesus is the Father is an early heretical view known as Patripassianism that orthodox Christianity opposed very strongly. What you are probably thinking of is the verse: "Father, just as you are in me and i am in you." (John 17:21, NIV). But this has no relevance to the Trinity since in the very next verse Jesus asks that all the disciples also be in him and in the Father as well so unless you want to expand the Trinity to include at least a dozen more 'persons' i suggest you stop referring to verses out of context.

Iqbal

58

Iqbal,

You, sir, take the cake!

quote from Hafeez:

"Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah"

Per Iqbal:
Is this a quote? I certainly hope its not another concocted verse (or will you be providing a reference for this one?)

Iqbal,
"Everywhere you look there is Allah or the Face of Allah" is a verse of the quran! I see Allah in you doesn't make you one - though!

It is obvious, you do not accept Allah as the Light/nur/spirit or my explanation of what the parable is; neither do you like the analogy of the 30 metre tall deity sitting on his throne. How about you, for a change, tell me - What is Allah to you:
-Manifest, or,
-Hidden

-Is it One or One-ness?

[quote]
from Iqbal:
"I think you'll find that it is you that has the "unique" understanding of Allah. Your understanding of Allah doesn't just differ with me, i’d hazard a guess that it differs with most other mainstream Muslims as well. Your on your own with this one my friend."
[/quote]

Iqbal,
My understanding of Allah is per the Universal God description that I listed and I indicated at that time that not all muslims would accept it and that is fine by me. I guess you belong in that category as well!

Heard of the poet Hafiz?
He said:"My God is a Humanist!" Or, maybe it was Rumi!

But - that is not your God, so let's move on!

quote from Hafeez:

There is a verse which says:

"I am the Father and the Father is in me"

Per Iqbal:
No there is not. There is no verse where Jesus says "I am the Father" as you incorrectly quoted in your earlier post and also here again. In fact, the claim that Jesus is the Father is an early heretical view known as Patripassianism that orthodox Christianity opposed very strongly. What you are probably thinking of is the verse:
*"Father, just as you are in me and i am in you." (John 17:21, NIV). *

Actually, I was thinking about this one:
** "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). **

The message is the same!

Christianity is not a RIGID force. It's thinking has evolved and that is what you are referring to! There were/are many sects in christianity each with its own understandings; much like our Islam with its own incliniation to label others - heretics!

Most christains today accept Jesus as their Father, the Lord or God!

The problem is you are coming from a different dogma and refuse to accept anything different like a Manifest God even though the quran says that "He can be manifest or hidden"[HQ 57:3]!

In which case - what is it you are looking from me?

59

An image does not have all the attributes of the original. The power of the creation of all that is would be one attribute not found in the "image". Theological arguement helps refine the belief, if done with knowledge, respect and insight. Does the Qu'ran explicitly distance itself from Christianity? What are some quotes of Iessa in the Qu'ran that exhibit a vastly opposing concept of His identitiy from the New Testament?

Also, could someone give the verses before and after the Qu'ranic quote of "Say not three, but one"?

60

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

quote from Hafeez:

"Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah"

Per Iqbal:
Is this a quote? I certainly hope its not another concocted verse (or will you be providing a reference for this one?)

Iqbal,
"Everywhere you look there is Allah or the Face of Allah" is a verse of the quran! I see Allah in you doesn't make you one - though!**
[/QUOTE]

You've wonderfully proven my point that you either concoct verses to suite your agenda or, and this is the more likely explanation, that you don't really have an understanding of the topics at hand. Which is why you very often quote verses incorrectly so as to give them an altogether different meaning. Other members have already given suitable examples of this elsewhere on these forums. Let's look at this verse to show you and everyone else what i mean.

You started by presenting a quote that said: "Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah" without giving it a reference. Now you say that this is a verse from the Qur'an which you say is actually worded: "Everywhere you look there is Allah or the Face of Allah". I can make a few observations here:

1) You still haven't bothered to give a reference for this verse so that other readers can check the accuracy of what you have quoted. Why didn't you give a reference, are you afraid that people will then quickly see through your charade? For those who want to check for themselves, the reference to look at is Qur'an 2:115.

2) You began by saying that the verse was "Everywhere you look, there is Allah. There is nothing but Allah" which you've now changed to "Everywhere you look there is Allah or the Face of Allah". See the difference? Even though you've had time to check and correct this quote you still haven't been able to reproduce it properly (i give the true version below). There is no verse in the Qur'an which has the exact wording that you have given.

3) You also first said that the verse ended "... There is nothing but Allah." However, in your amended version these words do not appear at all. So why did you add these words to begin with?

4) The correct wording of the verse is: "To Allah belong the East and the West. Wherever you turn, there is Allah's Face. For Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (2:115). Even though in your view this true version that i've given might have the same meaning as your mistaken quotation, that is not the point, the point is that yet again you have not been able to faithfully reproduce a Qur'anic quote accurately even when you had the chance to go back a second time and consider it again. Why this irresponsible behaviour? I would suggest that you make a note of the correct version so that in future you don't open yourself up to accusations of tampering with holy scripture.

[QUOTE]
neither do you like the analogy of the 30 metre tall deity sitting on his throne
[/quote]

Have you ever come across a Muslim who actually liked this analogy?

[QUOTE]

**quote from Hafeez:

There is a verse which says:

"I am the Father and the Father is in me"

Per Iqbal:
No there is not. There is no verse where Jesus says "I am the Father" as you incorrectly quoted in your earlier post and also here again. In fact, the claim that Jesus is the Father is an early heretical view known as Patripassianism that orthodox Christianity opposed very strongly. What you are probably thinking of is the verse: "Father, just as you are in me and i am in you." (John 17:21, NIV).

Hafeez: Actually, I was thinking about this one:
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). **
[/QUOTE]

Another example of your inability to present accurate quotations. Let's look at this one as well:

1) You began by claiming that Jesus said: "I am the Father". There is no such instance anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said these exact words as i've already shown. So you put into Jesus' mouth words which he in fact did not speak. You obviously seem to think that accurate quotes are not that important and that you permission to make religious personalities say what you would like them to say.

2) You then, in your subsequent reply, changed your mind and gave the quote as: "I am the Father and the Father is in me". Again, you had time to check the accuracy of this quote but you obviously didn't bother because as i've shown there is still not a single verse in the Bible with these words. If you think i'm wrong, prove it. Shown me where Jesus said these exact words?

3) Now you say you were thinking of the verse: "I and the Father are one." Compare this to the verse as you first presented it: "I am the Father." Are these the same? No! See the difference? I hope you do. Whether the message is the same is irrelevant, the point is that your quotes are reckless. And now that you've given John 10:30 as the reference it also becomes clear that Jesus is not claiming anything of what you first hinted at (namely that Jesus is the Father.) John 10:30 shows that what Jesus and the Father have in common is that "no one can snatch" the believers out of their hands. In this sense Jesus and the Father are "one" and even then the reason why such believers can't be snatched from Jesus' hands is because "the Father has given them to me" as Jesus himself said . Other than this, the verse is clear that Jesus and the Father are two distinct personalities.

[QUOTE]
Christianity is not a RIGID force. It's thinking has evolved and that is what you are referring to! There were/are many sects in christianity each with its own understandings...
[/QUOTE]

That might be the case but it still doesn't overcome the fact that to say Jesus is the Father is an ancient heresy called Patripassianism that orthodox Christianity rejected. I personally spoke to a mainstream Christian priest about this a couple of years ago, asking him whether Jesus was the Father and he said "No!" If you now want to argue that Christianity has since "evolved" then what you are implying is that Christians today don't believe what the earliest Christians believed. What was wrong with the creed of the early Christians that it required such drastic changes?

[QUOTE]
The problem is you are coming from a different dogma and refuse to accept anything different like a Manifest God even though the quran says that "He can be manifest or hidden"[HQ 57:3]!
[/quote]

The problem is you don't understand the term 'manifest' as used in the Qur'an. God being manifest, for example, does not mean that he came down to earth to reside in a woman's womb, then was born and circumcised and finally murdered. This is certainly not what the Qur'an means when it says God is manifest.

Iqbal