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One will note that this debate has runneth its course! Iqbal has completely resorted to nit-pick and deviated from the content of the message:

Iqbal,

Have you fiqured out what Allah means to you as per previous post?

[quote]

from Hafeez:

The problem is you are coming from a different dogma and refuse to accept anything different like a Manifest God even though the quran says that "He can be manifest or hidden"[HQ 57:3]!

Response from Iqbal:

"The problem is you **don't understand the term 'manifest' **as used in the Qur'an. God being manifest, for example, does not mean that he came down to earth to reside in a woman's womb, then was born and circumcised and finally murdered. This is certainly not what the Qur'an means when it says God is manifest."

IMPORTANT:

So, according to you (Iqbal) the "Manifest" deity stays in the heaven, on a throne! If he came down that will be like "occupying space" or "having an Image" and is the reason why our Sunni Islam places these LIMITS on the limit-less Allah! We tell Allah what he can be or not be - just to win a theological arguement!

In matters of debate one either nit-pick on petty matters or present the message or significance of the verses. Sorry, you have chosen the former or like Ibrahim call names like "concoct", " made it up", "do not know what it means", etc.

[QUOTE]
from Iqbal:
"There is no verse in the Qur'an which has the exact wording that you have given. "
[/QUOTE]

Iqbal is referring to this verse that I have stated in this thread more than once - everytime without the verse #:
" there is nothing but Allah. Where-ever you turn there is the face of Allah"

Is the message of the verse incorrect?

Here's the full verse that Iqbal is talking about callimg me a liar:
"To Allah belong the East and the West. Wherever you turn, there is Allah's Face. For Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (2:115).

Then he proceeds to present his simplistic analysis, in much the same ways, as was done for other verses. I guess according to him- the north & south doesn't belong to allah and to say that would be a lie!

Same with the rest of his last post:
He has issue with the verse that I posted re "Jesus being the Father", or:

[quote]
from Iqbal:
"Another example of your inability to present accurate quotations. Let's look at this one as well:
[/quote]

Iqbal corrects me by saying that I must have been thinking about:
"Father, just as you are in me and i am in you." (John 17:21, NIV).

His ego has gotten in the way - big time!

Actually, the verse I was quoting was this:
*"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). *

The message is the same. Concentrate on the message!

There is Nothing but Allah!

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
**Iqbal has completely resorted to nit-pick and deviated from the content of the message*
[/quote]

I don't call correcting corrupted citations of holy scripture as "nit picking". You might not care about how you misrepresent Qur'anic and Biblical texts, but i certainly do.

[quote]
Have you fiqured out what Allah means to you as per previous post?
[/quote]

Yes thank you, i am fully aware of what Allah means to me.

[QUOTE]
Iqbal is referring to this verse that I have stated in this thread more than once - everytime without the verse #:
" there is nothing but Allah. Where-ever you turn there is the face of Allah"
[/QUOTE]

This is quite laughable. Did you notice that yet again you've given a different version of the verse!?

[QUOTE]
Is the message of the verse incorrect?
[/QUOTE]

Before you or anyone else can understand what the message of the verse is you have to first actually know what the verse says. And you will never know what the verse says if you keep distorting it as per your sloppy quotations.

[quote]
**Here's the full verse that Iqbal is talking about callimg me a liar:
"To Allah belong the East and the West. Wherever you turn, there is Allah's Face. For Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (2:115).

Then he proceeds to present his simplistic analysis...**
[/quote]

I gave no analysis whatsoever of this verse. Can you show me where i did?

[QUOTE]
**Iqbal corrects me by saying that I must have been thinking about:
"Father, just as you are in me and i am in you." (John 17:21, NIV).

His ego has gotten in the way - big time!

Actually, the verse I was quoting was this:
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).**
[/QUOTE]

Okay, let's look at this one again. You began by saying that Jesus said:

"I am the Father" (which was a spurious quote)

Then to correct yourself you said Jesus said: "I am the Father and the Father is in me" (again a spurious quote that doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible)

So i suggested that perhaps you had in mind the verse: "Father, just as you are in me and i am in you."

Now look closely at my verse "Father, just as you are in me and i am in you" and the verse you gave "I am the Father and the Father is in me". Would you say my verse was closer to what you tried to quote or is the third verse you presented "I and the Father are one" closer in accuracy? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

[QUOTE]
Concentrate on the message!
[/quote]

I do concentrate on the message, but i would strongly suggest that in turn you concentrate on your quotations and refrain from wilfully misrepresenting scripture.

Iqbal

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**hafeez123,

Consider this as a warning!

Misquoting Religious Scriptures shall not be tolerated. Not only is it misinformation, but can also be gravely misleading. Religion is not a game, neither a trick you can pull out of the sleeve and interpret it as you desire.

The verse no, 115 of Surah Baqrah reads:

"And to Allaah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allaah. Indeed, Allaah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."

and you quoted it as:

" there is nothing but Allah. Where-ever you turn there is the face of Allah"

I suggest you also look up the meaning of 'chinese whispers'.

Also, you quoted from the Bible:

"I am the Father"

whereas it actually states, in the book of John, verse 30:

"I and the father are one."

I've noticed that you have a habit of being careless, or 'can't care less', while quoting religious text. And then you have the audacity to mock others!?:

His ego has gotten in the way - big time!

Be warned!

Sentinel.**

64

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sentinel: *
hafeez123,

Consider this as a warning!

Misquoting Religious Scriptures shall not be tolerated. Not only is it misinformation, but can also be gravely misleading. Religion is not a game, neither a trick you can pull out of the sleeve and interpret it as you desire.

The verse no, 115 of Surah Baqrah reads:

"And to Allaah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allaah. Indeed, Allaah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."

and you quoted it as:

" there is nothing but Allah. Where-ever you turn there is the face of Allah"

I suggest you also look up the meaning of 'chinese whispers'.

Also, you quoted from the Bible:

"I am the Father"

whereas it actually states, in the book of John, verse 30:

"I and the father are one."

I've noticed that you have a habit of being careless, or 'can't care less', while quoting religious text. And then you have the audacity to mock others!?:

His ego has gotten in the way - big time!

Be warned!

Sentinel.
[/QUOTE]

I do not misquote anything; neither am I careless!

That is the Interpretation of the verse 115 or:
-Allah is everywhere not just East & West!
-There is Nothing But Allah.

Obviously, you have issue, why don't you prove me wrong. Come on down and debate with me!

There is no misquote re:The Father verse either!
Thhere is no difference in the quote:
"I am the father and the Father is in me"

with

"I and the Father are the same."

65

hafeez123,

you blatently misquoted!

"There is nothing but Allah ..." as you quoted, does not mean the same as:

"And to Allaah belongs the east and the west ..." as stated in the Qur'aan.

If you look up the words quote and interpret in the dictionary, you'll find that they clearly differ in meaning!

Besides, who gave you the authority to interpret Islaam or Christianity? What are you, a born again scholar?

You want to debate? Where are you? If you're in the UK i'll come over and we can have a debate!

Sentinel.

66

You will notice that in my writings I emphasize more on the significance of items/verses in question!
I believe in using the Intellect to “JUDGE right from wrong”!
I do not BLINDLY follow!

Dear Sentinel,
You have listed the following that you have issues with:

  1. You have issue with my comments of:
    “There is nothing but Allah”

Could you pls explain why - in your OWN words - Pls?

  1. You have issue with my interpretations of:
    Verse no, 115 of Surah Baqrah reads:

“And to Allaah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allaah. Indeed, Allaah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.”

I interpret this as:
" Allah is everywhere! There is nothing but Allah. Where-ever you turn there is the face of Allah!"

Could you pls explain what this verse means to you - IN YOUR OWN WORDS!

  1. On matters of christianity:
    I have already asked the christians on the board to correct me if I have erred in explaining the trinity. There is a comment from Seminole to this affect that you may refer to.

You had issue with a verse that I quoted and the Full verse was:
“I am the Father and the Father is in me”!

There is no difference in the above with the following:
“I and the Father are the same”

Obviously, you think there is. Pls explain how do you find the two different in what they mean!

In another thread:
VIOLENCE - Religously Sanctioned or Random

http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43817

You had similar issue with one verse out of the dozen that I listed,
or
“[at-Taubah 9:29] Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

… but then you quoted the very same verse as saying:

"[9:29] Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. "

Sentinel,
Is there any difference in the meanings between the two? The expressions in the parenthesis/brackets are the author’s own!

Does the shorter one in any way distort the MEANING of the first & longer one ?

You tell me - what is the TRUE meaning of the VERSE [9:29] in your own understandings!

67

It is people like you who try to distort the texts.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hafeez123: *

I believe in using the Intellect to "JUDGE right from wrong"!
I do not BLINDLY follow!

[/QUOTE]

Oh, but you do 'blindly follow'. Indeed you do, very much so; you are enslaved by your whims, as your fancies tickle your intellect, and your desires lead you astray - stumped and bewildred, you have fallen victim to evil whispers, and misguidance.

May Allaah guide you.

"They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah." [Qur'aan 8:30]